Part 9.2
IV. REV 4:1-11 AND THE TWENTY-FOUR ELDERS
There is one remaining midtribulational line of argumentation which demands some recognition. Stated simply, it is the negative proposition that there is no indication of the rapture in Revelation 4:1-11, not even symbolically when John responds to the summons, “Come up hither.” Harrison proposes seven reasons why rapture cannot occur at this point in the book and for the sake of a complete hearing, these will have brief consideration - although there is little to be gained by such a denial if the place of the rapture cannot be established later on in the Revelation.
A. What Happens at Revelation 4:11?
(1) “After these things I saw ... I heard ... I was” merely records the personal experience of the seer. It is just a change of viewpoint, it is argued, for John has seen and recorded “these things” and now turns to record “other things.” But there is more to the verse than this1 Change of time and place are involved, for with the words “come up hither,” the scene moves into the future and shifts from earth to heaven. Jesus is no longer seen as a mediatorial Priest “walking in the midst of the lampstands,” but comes into view in an entirely different character, and for the execution of other purposes.[40] To see the rapture at this point in the Revelation corresponds perfectly with 1:19, which is the almost undisputed chronological key to the book. The present Church age corresponds to “the things which are,” and “the things which shall be hereafter” (μετά ταΰτα) refers evidently to events which shall transpire after the Church age has been completed. This being the case, it becomes apparent that 4:1 commences the futuristic section of the Revelation, identified as it is by the double use of the expression μετά ταΰτα. John has been speaking of things which pertain to the churches, but now he is about to unfold his vision of conditions upon earth and events in heaven after God’s program for the churches is finished.
(2) It is said further that “these things” refer to the visible churches which go on into the Tribulation, and (3) that a rapture at this point is inconsistent with the structural plan of the book: the Church, once mentioned, is left to play its part even though it is not again mentioned. It is difficult to find any weight to support these two arguments, for they so largely assume that which the author has undertaken to prove, namely, that the Church continues beyond this point in the book.
(4) It is argued that the revealed order of harvesting, “first the tares” (Matthew 13:30), indicates that the seals and trumpets must harvest the tares before the Lord of the Harvest gathers the “wheat” into His barn. But this is hardly conclusive, for in Matthew 13:1-58, the angels do the reaping, not the Beast, nor Satan. The time of reaping is set by God and starts with Revelation 14:15, not in chapter 6 with the opening of the first seal. It is most peculiar that our author argues that seals and trumpets harvest the tares, for according to his view, these fall in the sweet half of the seven years and are not part of the Tribulation at all, but are rather in the closing scenes of the Church age.
(5) There fails to appear any redeemed company in glory. The position and description of the twenty-four elders fail to suggest any company of people such as would have to be present after the rapture. Since both midtribulationalists and posttribulationalists argue strenuously that the elders cannot represent the Church, the identification of this interesting company will receive a more detailed treatment very shortly.
(6) None of the revealed accompaniments of the coming of Christ are here in this passage. But this is not true, for translation is suggested in the words “come up hither,” and there is a voice as of a trumpet, an open door in heaven, and a redeemed company with their crowns. All of this, however, is not directly to the point. There is no need that all the accompaniments of the rapture be restated at every mention of the event. Nor is it necessary to pretribulationalism to find the rapture at all in this experience of John.
Chronologically, the rapture most probably occurs between the third and fourth chapters. The Tribulation section of the Revelation presumes that rapture is past, and neither rapture nor Church find mention at all in it. Judgment is in view and the persons involved are those who dwell on the earth. From this point on, the redeemed are seen in glory, and when Christ returns to the earth, He brings His saints with Him.
(7) The last of these reasons, said to be conclusive, is that Paul places the rapture at the “last trumpet,” identified with the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:1-19. Some of the difficulties of this view have already been demonstrated. From these seven reasons, it is safe to conclude that, although John’s experience need not typify the rapture, it has not been proved that it could not, and more important, nor has it been disproved that rapture occurs at this point in the chronology of the book. Pretribulationalists believe that from the viewpoint of Revelation 4:1, John looks down upon a world torn by Tribulation judgments, from which the Church and the restraint of the Holy Spirit have already been removed. As for the company beheld in heaven, although it is not essential to pretribulationalism to prove that the elders do indeed represent the Church in glory, if such an identity can be demonstrated, the case becomes that much more unassailable.
B. Who Are the Twenty-four Elders? The first momentous sight to greet the eyes of the Apostle John when he was caught up into heaven to behold “things which shall be hereafter,” was a throne set in heaven, and One sitting upon the throne surrounded by twenty-four elders, each of which was upon a throne, wearing golden crowns and white raiment. Who are these glorious and privileged individuals, seated in such a place of prominence about the glorified Christ? Is there any way of determining their real identity? They are mentioned twelve times in the Revelation, and only in that portion where the Church is no longer seen on the earth (Revelation 4:4; Revelation 4:10; Revelation 5:5-6; Revelation 5:8; Revelation 5:11; Revelation 5:14; Revelation 7:11; Revelation 7:13; Revelation 11:16; Revelation 14:3; Revelation 19:4). Do they, as so widely believed, represent and picture the glorified Church? There are a number of factors involved in finding an answer to these questions.
They are not a symbolic group. It is most difficult to conceive of John holding conversation with one-twenty-fourth part of a symbolic host (Revelation 5:5). These elders are individuals, although their title and actions indicate that they function in a representative sense (Revelation 5:8). It will be remembered that when Moses was commanded to give God’s message to the children of Israel, he did so through the elders of the people (Exodus 19:3-8). Likewise in the New Testament eldership is a representative office (Acts 15:2; Acts 20:17), so although the elders of the Revelation cannot symbolize the Church in glory, they can be representative of the Church, and thus still indicate the presence of that glorified body in heaven before Tribulation judgment. To recognize these elders as representative of the Church overcomes the objection: “If so great a company of redeemed were present, their failure to appear and join in the New Song is utterly inexplicable.”[41] But it must be remembered that the rapture will only add a relatively small number to the multitude of saints already “with Christ.” Even if Dr. Harrison were right, there still ought to be a great number of saints in heaven. In private conversation, Dr. Harrison has recognized this fact, but stated that these believers must be in some other part of heaven, for it is vast enough that they do not appear in the scene described by Revelation 4:1-11; Revelation 5:1-14. If this be so, why could not the raptured saints also be there in that remote part of heaven? It is easier to believe that the twenty-four elders do represent the Church.[42]
Harrison says that “there is no suggestion that those whom they represent are there with them. Quite the opposite: they always appear and act in their individual capacity.”[43] If this were true, after the rapture which Harrison places in Revelation 11:12, their number should materially increase, which, however, is not the case (Revelation 11:16). Twenty-four may well be the very number of representation, as was the case in the number of courses of the Levitical priesthood (1 Chronicles 24:1-19). To further the identification of the elders, they are not angels (Revelation 5:11; Revelation 7:11), for the angels are grouped around the elders; nor are they the same as the four living creatures. Every time the elders are mentioned, they are clearly distinguished from celestial beings. Scripture never speaks of the angels being crowned or seated on thrones; they are never designated elders, neither are they said to sing. Nor could angels ever join with the song of the redeemed, for no redemption was provided for angels who left their first estate, while angels who did not fall need no redemption. However, all of these privileges from which angels are excluded are open to the Church (Matthew 19:28; 1 Peter 5:4; 2 Timothy 4:8).
These 24 elders are not angels ... as is shown ... by their white robes and crowns, the rewards of endurance ... but representatives of the Church, as generally understood.[44]
There are five characteristics which seem adequate to identify the elders as representatives of the glorified Church: their position, their worship, their raiment, their crowns, and their song. Their position, in proximity to a throne which evidently is that of Christ, and the fact that they themselves occupy thrones, indicates that the Church is in view. They are found in the place of honor, with a royal association between their own thrones and the one central throne. To the Church alone is co-enthronement with Christ promised (Revelation 3:21; Matthew 19:28), as also the authority to judge angels (1 Corinthians 6:2-3). Neither the twenty-four elders, nor their thrones, ever appear after Revelation 19:7-9. From that point, the Church is seen as the bride of Christ, and evidently sits together with God’s Son upon His throne. The identification of the elders with the Church is furthered by considering their worship. The initial act recorded of these elders is that they worship Him who sits upon the throne. In fact, throughout the book, whenever the elders are found in the presence of Christ they are prostrate in worship before Him. The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns between the throne, saying Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created (Revelation 4:10-11). And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever (Revelation 5:14). And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God (Revelation 11:16). And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen: Alleluia (Revelation 19:4). This attitude of worship, coupled with their intimate knowledge of God and His doings (John 15:15; Revelation 5:5; Revelation 7:13-17), is what would be expected of saints so recently caught up into the presence of their Lord. The identification is made more certain by their raiment, for they are clothed in white (Revelation 4:4), everywhere typical of the righteousness of saints (Revelation 3:4-5; Revelation 3:18; Revelation 7:9; Revelation 7:13-14; cf. Isaiah 61:10). It was an express promise to the overcomers at Sardis that they should be clothed in white raiment, even to walk with the Lord in white. Coupled with this raiment is the fact that the elders wear crowns, mindful of the promise made with those at Smyrna (Revelation 2:10) and the warning to those at Philadelphia (Revelation 3:11). They do not wear the monarch’s crown, or diadem (διάδημα), but the victor’s crown, won in conflict (στέφανος; cf. 2 Timothy 4:8; James 1:12; 1 Peter 5:4). The fact that these representative elders are crowned also indicates that resurrection is past, for disembodied spirits wear no crowns. As Seiss comments: “The coronation time is the resurrection time; and no one can be crowned until he is either resurrected if dead or translated if living.”[45]
Thus the saints, represented by the elders, have been translated and have received their resurrection bodies. They have been rewarded, as the Lord has promised (1 Corinthians 3:12-14; 1 Corinthians 9:25; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 2 Timothy 2:12), and are now wearing their crowns. The clear indication is that resurrection and rapture are past. In fact, it is rather obvious that they have just received their crowns, for shy should angelic beings who have worshiped and adored Christ from eternity past wait so long and for this particular moment to cast their crowns at His feet? Is it not more logical to conclude that the rapture and the rewarding of Church saints have just taken place - that the Church, fresh from scenes of earthly conflict, in gratitude and humility cast their every reward before the feet of the Saviour, joining the four living creatures in ascribing to Him all glory and honor and power? (Revelation 4:9-11). A fifth identifying mark that these elders do represent the Church is found in the song they sing and the important claims that are made therein: And they sung a new song, saying, Thou are worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth (Revelation 5:9-10). At this point both midtribulationalists and posttribulationalists introduce their primary argument against identifying the elders with the Church, or with representatives of the Church, or with redeemed people at all. There is a textual problem involved with the pronoun “us,” as found in the song of the elders. The important Codex Alexandrinus, of the fifth century, omits the word completely in verse 9, and a variety of manuscripts support the third person, “them” and “they” in verse 10. From this, it is argued most strenuously that the elders do not sing their redemption song, but rather, they sing of others from every tribe and nation who have been redeemed. While admitting that this is the reading favored by most of the revisers, it needs to be pointed out that the evidence is in no wise overwhelming.
“Thou has redeemed us ...” (v. 9). This text is supported by the Textus Receptus, Codex Sinaiticus (4th century), Codex Basilianus (8th century), Codex St. Petersburg (apparently 8th century), Minuscule 1 (of uncertain date), and several other minuscules of late date, the Coptic, Latin, and Armenian (5th century) versions, and quoted by Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage (248 a.d.), and by Primasius (6th century).
“And has made us ...” (v. 10). This is supported by the Textus Receptus, Codes Fuldensis (6th century Latin version), Codex Coislinianus (10th century), and quoted by Arethas, Bishop of Caesarea in Cappadocia (10th century).
“and we shall rein on the earth ...” (v. 10). This text is supported by the Textus Receptus, MSS. Demidovianus (12th century), MSS, Lipsienses (14th and 15th centuries), and quoted by Arethas (10th century), Primasius (6th century), Julius Firmicus (345 a.d.), Idacius (the name under which Vigilius of Thapsis, 484 a.d. published his work).[46] Also on this matter of manuscript evidence for maintaining the wording of the Authorized Version, Seiss writes:
Ηγορασας ημας hast redeemed us. Some critics and expositors have rejected this ημας, for the reason that it is omitted in the Codex Alexandrinus, and in the Ethiopic version; though the latter is not much more than a loose paraphrase. The Codex Sinaiticus, however, which was discovered in 1860, and which is of equal antiquity and authority with the Codex Alexandrinus, contains it. The Codex Basilianus, in the Vatican, contains it. The Latin, Coptic or Memphitic, and Armenian, which are of great value, contain it. And so do all other MSS. And versions. And to discredit it, simply and only because it does not appear in that one single Codex of Alexandria, is most unreasonable and unjust to the weight of authority for its retention. Dr. Tregelles, on full examination, was firmly convinced of its right to a place in the text, before the Codex Sinaiticus appeared; and the presence of this ημας in that MS., ought to settle the question of its genuineness forever. The evidences from the context, also argue powerfully for a construction which necessarily embraces it, whether expressed or not. We regard it as indubitably genuine.[47] Lang has further noted:
It is said that Alford, upon Dr. Tregelles assuring him that Codex Sinaiticus has the word, stated that he would re-insert it in his text. But this was not done, on account, we are told, of his death.[48]
Since there is such textual support for the reading of the Authorized Version, advocates of the new reading can hardly be said to have won a sweeping victory. It would seem, to the contrary, that there is much in favor of retaining the old reading. Yet, even if the “us” were omitted and these verses thrown into the third person, still, there would be no adequate grounds for insisting that the elders were singing of the redemption of others. The song of the redeemed, sung by Moses and the children of Israel, as recording in Exodus 15:13; Exodus 15:17, is obviously sung about themselves, but is was sung objectively in the third person.
Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.... Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O Lord, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in. [Italics added.]
There are other cases in the New Testament where the third person is used in the place of the first person, no doubt for the sake of modesty. Paul evidently speaks of himself when he said: “I knew a man in Christ ...” (2 Corinthians 12:2). Similarly, John referred to himself as “the disciple whom Jesus loved” (John 21:20). Even though textual evidence be massed against the older reading of Revelation 5:9-10, which to date has not been achieved, still it would not prove that the elders were referring to others as the redeemed of God. Of verse 10, Bengel writes: “The Hebrew construction of the third person for the first, has a graphic relation to the redeemed, and also has a more modest sound than us, priests.”[49] In the light of such evidence, it seems valid to conclude that the elders’ song is not sung by some unknown celestial beings, but by those who have experienced for themselves the cleansing power of the blood of Christ. That which they sing of themselves can be true only of the Church of Jesus Christ, of which they are a part, for the Church has been “redeemed” (1 Peter 1:18); its members are “priests” (1 Peter 2:5; 1 Peter 2:9; Revelation 1:6); they have been gathered “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation” (Acts 1:8); and certainly they “shall reign” with Christ on the earth (2 Timothy 2:12). Israel, too, is to have a “new song” (Revelation 14:3; cf. Revelation 15:3) and will sing it themselves before the throne and the living creatures and the elders. It is, therefore, not strange that the “new song” of the Church will be sung by those to whom it rightfully belongs. How could glorified saints stand by in mute silence while others sing redemption’s story and not join in the refrain?
Considering the textual support for the song of the elders, and in view of the many other striking marks of identification, it is most surprising how lightly some of the brethren pass over all of this and insist that the elders are not redeemed, in fact, are not even human at all. It has been said that prejudice “squints when it looks,” and possibly that is the reason why the elders have fared so badly. Commentators, who have mustered all their arguments to prove that the elders cannot represent the Church, have given only the most vague ideas as to what or whom they think the elders do represent. Lang calls them “the senior executive officers of the Most High,” and “the noblest princes of heaven”[50] while Reese is satisfied to designate them as “angelic lords.”[51]
Most, however, will prefer to use the names the elders themselves suggest, namely, “redeemed from every nation,” and “kings and priests unto God.” They will see in them the Church of Jesus Christ, caught up to God, rewarded and glorified, preserved from Tribulation fires, and ascribing all glory and praise to the Saviour they love with a pure heart fervently.
It is important that these elders are never seen in heaven prior to the fourth chapter of the Revelation. In a vision, Isaiah saw the Lord and the heavenly seraphim, but saw no elders (Isaiah 6:2-3); Ezekiel looked up into glory and saw the four living creatures, but not the twenty-four thrones with their elders. With good reason, English inquires:
Why did Isaiah, who viewed other wonders of heaven, who looked upon the seraphim, fail to see the elders? Why did Ezekiel, who beheld other marvels - the precious, colorful stones, the rainbow, the glories; who viewed the four living creatures, miss the four and twenty elders seated upon thrones? Why did not John, in his former vision, take note of their presence in heaven? These servants of God did not see or describe the four and twenty thrones, and the four and twenty elders seated upon them, because the elders were not yet in heaven. It was when John was caught up into heaven in an experience quite similar to the coming translation of the Church - as a spectator, however, and not as a participant - that the four and twenty elders are first seen enthroned about the throne of the Lord. Here is a new body in heaven, at the end of the Church age and prior to the tribulation. They are not angels. They are not the seraphim. They are not the cherubim. They are not the four living creatures. They are evidently human beings, redeemed saints, as further examination of the passage will confirm.[52] In this present chapter, the leading arguments for midtribulationalism have been discussed, including the two main passages involved, the fourth and the eleventh chapters of the Revelation, and the key problems of the trumpets and the elders. Now, it must be left for the reader to judge whether or not the midtribulational theory has been disproved, and that from the passages most commonly cited in favor of the position. Returning once more to the elders, the following analysis by Armerding will be of interest to many, and will form a suitable conclusion to this phase of the investigation.
Again we see them, together with the four living creatures, listening to the new song of the 144,000 who stand on Mount Sion with the Lamb (Revelation 14:3). And the last thing that is said of them is that they fall down, in company with the four living creatures, and worship Him who sits on the throne, saying, “Amen, Alleluia” (Revelation 19:4). This last act of theirs is characteristic of them. Indeed, there are three things which seem to characterize them all through: (1) their intimate knowledge of Christ, (2) their nearness to Him, and (3) the worship they give Him. And we recall that our Lord, when praying for His own, asked that they might know Him, that they might be with Him, and that they might behold His glory (John 17:3; John 17:24). And they were none other than the men which the Father had given Him out of the world.[53]
Footnotes (error importing numbers into e-sword, original can be found at
[1] H. W. H., The Church and the Great Tribulation, p. 24. Here is a midtribulationalist writer who places the rapture in Revelation 7:1-17, following the sixth seal.
[2] Ibid., p. 41.
[3] Ibid., p. 19.
[4] G. H. Lang, Firstfuits and Harvests, p. 44.
[5] Ibid., p. 37.
[6] J. Oliver Buswell, Jr., an extract from a letter published under the title: “Let the Prophets Speak ...” Our Hope, LVI (June, 1950), 720.
[7] Norman B. Harrison, The End: Re-thinking the Revelation, p. 229. In this chapter, Dr. Harrison’s commentary on the book of Revelation will receive considerable attention because it is probably the outstanding recent publication to endorse at length the midtribulational view.
[8] Harrison, His Coming, p. 50.
[9] Ibid., The End, p. 91.
[10] Ibid., pp. 119, 120.
[11] Ibid., p. 118.
[12] Ibid., p. 152.
[13] Ibid., pp. 111, 112, 94, 105.
[14] Ibid., p. 50, Cf., His Coming, p. 51.
[15] Ibid., The End, p. 50.
[16] H. W. H., op. cit., pp. 9-10.
[17] Ibid., pp. 231, 232.
[18] Ibid., p. 233. These are essentially Cameron’s arguments, and have been answered in Chapter Six.
[19] Harrison, His Coming, pp. 10-13.
[20] Ibid., p. 50.
[21] Harrison, The End., p. 117.
[22] Loc. cit.
[23] Loc. cit.
[24] Ibid., pp. 107-9.
[25] H. A. Ironside, The Mysteries of God, pp. 95, 96.
[26] Harrison, The End, op. cit., p. 119.
[27] William R. Newell, The Church and the Great Tribulation, p. 20.
[28] Oswald T. Smith, The Book of Revelation, p. 37.
[29] Harrison, The End, op. cit., pp. 74, 75. Italics in the original.
[30] Hermann Olshausen, Biblical Commentary on the New Testament, IV, 398.
[31] Charles J. Ellicott, St. Paul’s First Epistle to the Corinthians, p. 325.
[32] Harrison, op. cit., p. 99.
[33] Ibid., p. 75.
[34] Lang, op. cit., p. 33.
[35] Jesse Forest Silver, The Lord’s Return, p. 235.
[36] Henry C. Thiessen, Lectures in Systematic Theology, p. 485.
[37] J. F. Strombeck, First the Rapture, p. 109.
[38] Harrison, His Coming., op. cit., p. 46.
[39] Ford C. Ottman, The Unfolding of the Ages, pp. 260, 261.
[40] Ibid., p. 103.
[41] Harrison, The End, p. 83.
[42] Miner B. Stearns, book review: The End: Re-thinking the Revelation, Bibliotheca Sacra, 10 (January-March, 1942), 125.
[43] Harrison, op. cit., p. 78.
[44] Henry Alford, The Greek Testament, IV, 596.
[45] Joseph A. Seiss, Lectures on the Apocalypse, I, 250.
[46] R. Ludwigson, Simplified Classroom Notes on Prophecy, pp. 111, 112.
[47] Seiss, op. cit., III, 249.
[48] G. H. Lang, The Revelation of Jesus Christ, p. 126.
[49] J. A. Bengel, cited by Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, Commentary on the Whole Bible, p. 566.
[50] Lang, op. cit., p. 188.
[51] Alexander Reese, The Approaching Advent of Christ, p. 94.
[52] E. Schuyler English, “Re-Thinking the Rapture,” Our Hope, LVII (September, 1950), 149.
[53] Carl Armerding, The Four and Twenty Elders, p. 10.