- Home
- Speakers
- Bakht Singh
- Ichabod: The Glory Departed
Ichabod: The Glory Departed
Bakht Singh

Bakht Singh Chabra (1903 - 2000). Indian evangelist, church planter, and Bible teacher born in Joiya, Punjab (now Pakistan), to a devout Sikh family. Educated at Punjab University, he studied agricultural engineering in England (1926-1928) and Canada (1929-1932), embracing a Western lifestyle, including smoking and drinking, while rejecting his Sikh roots by shaving his hair. Initially hostile to Christianity—once tearing a Bible apart—he converted in 1929 in Winnipeg after reading the New Testament, influenced by Christian friends John and Edith Hayward. Returning to India in 1933, he began preaching as an Anglican evangelist, later becoming independent, sparking the 1937 Martinpur revival, a pivotal movement in Indian Christianity. In 1941, after a night of prayer in Chennai, he founded Hebron Ministries, establishing over 10,000 indigenous churches modeled on New Testament principles across India and South Asia. Singh authored books like How I Got Joy Unspeakable and Full of Glory and held annual “Holy Convocations” in Madras, Hyderabad, Ahmedabad, and Kalimpong, drawing thousands. Married to Rama Bai at age 12 in 1915, little is recorded of their personal life. His contextualized gospel, blending Indian spirituality with biblical truth, earned him the title “Elijah of the 21st Century” in Indian Christendom. Singh’s words, “I have never asked any man for anything, but the Lord is richly supplying all my needs,” reflect his faith-driven ministry. Despite Parkinson’s disease in his final decade, his legacy endures through Hebron’s global network and writings, praised by figures like Ravi Zacharias.
Download
Topic
Sermon Summary
In this sermon transcript, the preacher emphasizes that many preachers today are not delivering God's message but their own opinions and worldly philosophies to entertain people. The preacher laments that the voice of God and His word are rarely heard in the world today, leading to spiritual darkness and bankruptcy. The sermon references the story of Samuel and the glory of God departing from Israel as a warning to the present generation. The preacher also highlights the dangers of love for power, money, and fame among those who claim to serve God, leading to sin and barrenness in the house of God.
Sermon Transcription
This contains the message on Glory Departed from 1st Samuel, Chapter 4, Verse 22, by the Lord's Servant, Brother Bhagat Singh, during the special meeting held at Ebru on Hyderabad in 1960s. The Telugu translator is Brother G.T. Benjamin. And Verse 19, He heard I will do a new thing, now it's a spring forth, shall he not know it, I will make a way in the wilderness and a river in the desert. He heard I will do a new thing, now it's a spring forth, shall he not know it, I will make a way in the wilderness and a river in the desert. The same verse was given to us some years ago, again and again, for the ministry to be fulfilled in many part of India. He heard I will do a new thing, now it's a spring forth, shall he not know it, I will make a way in the wilderness and a river in the desert. The same verse was given to us some years ago, again and again, for the ministry to be fulfilled in many part of India. He heard I will do a new thing, now it's a spring forth, shall he not know it, I will make a way in the wilderness and a river in the desert. Again we have seen the work. That's how also the work began in the city of Madras in the year 1940 after the big campaign. For full three months, we had a city-wide campaign in the city of Madras in 1940. For full three months, we had a city-wide campaign in the city of Madras in 1940. In the last meeting, in the year 1940, the same message came. Lord wanted to do a new thing in our midst, in our country. Lord wanted to do a new thing in our midst, in our country. We did not know how it will begin, through which vessel it will begin. So, as we have prayed, we have prayed, but we do not have a heart for it. And with great travail, in many part of the world, for the very same new thing. That was expressed by many in Switzerland recently, when they had this congress on evangelism. That was expressed by many in Switzerland recently, when they had this congress on evangelism. And they are longing for something new. It can meet God's need. And again, Lord brought to my attention the passages from the book of Samuel, the book of Chronicles. I will read you the first book of Samuel chapter 4, verse 22. First Samuel 4, 22. The glory is departed from Israel, for the ark of God is taken. The glory is departed. Then in 2nd Chronicles, 7th chapter. And when Solomon had prayed, with end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering, and the sacrifices, and the glory of the Lord filled the house. Then in 4th chapter, glory departed. We read in 2nd Chronicles 7, 1, that the departed glory came down. Now we read how God used 4 persons in that period to bring back the departed glory. These are the 4 great divine principles, which are being fulfilled today in every part of the world. Very many people are eager to see the departed glory coming down. And that is a very general feeling today. In every part of the world, among God's people, God may show forth the glory among His servants. But the condition in those days, among God's people, is the same today among God's people. We see in 1st Samuel and 2nd chapter, there are a few conditions. First Samuel 2nd chapter. Now the sons of Eli, the sons of Eli, they knew not the Lord. Now there is a condition. First condition. They were sons of the high priest. But they did not know the Lord. They had no personal experience of living God. And that can be said today also. Among many God's servants, many priests, they don't know God by experience. They knew about Him, but don't know Him by experience. Secondly, verse 13. And the priest's custom with the people was that when any man offered sacrifice, the priest, servant came, while the flesh was in searing, with a flesh hook of three teeth in the hand. Verse 15. Now, so before they burned the fat, the priest's servant came and said to the man that sacrificed, Here, flesh to roast for the priest, for he will not have sordid flesh of the but raw. Verse 16. Many men said unto him, Let him not fail to burn the fat presently, then take as much as thy sword desireth. Then he would answer him, Nay, but thou shalt give it to me, or not I will take by force. That happened in the house of God. They were these servants of the sons of the Eli, going about with a flesh hook of three teeth. The people used to come from many far off places to offer sacrifices in the house of God. And the flesh had to be first offered at the altar of the burnt sacrifice. And only then the priest would take whatever they wanted. But they demanded raw flesh. They did not want to be sordid or baked. So anybody came in with that flesh of sacrifice, they demanded that. The priest wanted the best flesh for his own personal use. But people would say, let them first offer the sacrifice, then let them take what they desire. But the servants would say, No way. Our master said, You take first. He won't give us willingly, we will take by force. So they were these servants of God, taking away God's portion, the house of God, by force, with the help of the hook of three teeth. Today you find the same thing. In the house of God, men going about as God's servants, taking away God's portion by force. Because of greed, because of love for other things. Now we can describe these three teeth in the flesh by their name. First tooth, love for power. Second would be love for money. And thirdly, love for name or fame. Rather than serving God with all humility and sacrifice today, as God's servants, they want power for themselves, or authority, or name or fame. And that's happening in God's house. In the name of God, they want authority, and they want money, and they want name and fame. That will be sin and barrenness. That's how sin came in the house of God. Now chapter three. First sample. And fourth sample, missed in the Lord. God's word became precious. There is no punimiyan. Rather than giving God's message, God's word, they are giving their own message. We have to give a lecture and worldly philosophy to entertain people. When people go to the house of God, they go for the word of God. To hear God's voice. And seeing God's word with power of authority. But though they have been told here, God's word became precious. There is no opunimiyan. And you find exactly the same condition today in all the parts of the world. In a very few places, the voice of God and God's word is conveyed. People don't know full meaning of when they see God's Bible. That will be barrenness, infancy, bankruptcy, and spiritual darkness. Then verse four. The Lord called Samuel, and he asked, Here am I. Now they both lie in the same place. Eli and Samuel. Samuel heard the voice of God in the small boy. But Eli did not hear it. Verse five. Then Eli said, Here am I. But God did call me and said, I called thee not. Lie down again. And he went and lay down. Eli became deaf spiritually. God was speaking. Samuel heard the voice. But Eli, because of deafness, could hear it. But God did not change. We have changed. God does speak. By spirit. Through his servant. In my worship. In God's house. God does speak. But there are many who become deaf spiritually. Then you find a triosel. And that's why the glory departed. Everything became more like a ritual and ceremony. First Samuel in chapter four. First Samuel in chapter four. And verse three. And when the people were come to the camp, the others said, We are four. And the Lord said to them, Head up by the Ark of the Covenant. Out of the shallow. When he comes among us, he will save us from the hand of the enemy. And when the people were come to the camp, the others said, We are four. And the Lord said to them, Head up by the Ark of the Covenant. Out of the shallow. When he comes among us, he will save us from the hand of the enemy. On the one hand, they have to spoil the sacrifice made for God. On the other hand, they have not shown any respect for God's house. Now when the enemy came, When the enemy came against them, Now they bring the Ark of God in the battlefield. Like many people, They won't think of God, they deserve prosperity. Only when they are in difficulty, they call upon God. But the same young men, Who were spoiling God's house, taking away God's portion by force, Now they are coming along with the Ark of God battlefield. The same young men, Who were spoiling God's house, taking away God's portion by force, Now they are coming along with the Ark of God battlefield. Now they are coming along with the Ark of God battlefield. Without honoring God, without obeying God's word, They want to get victory or prestige. So as a formality, they bring the Ark of God in the battlefield. So as a formality, they bring the Ark of God in the battlefield. As a result of that, the Philistines are taking away the Ark of God. Both the Ark of God and the Philistines are dying in the battlefield. All the Israelites are also dying in the battlefield. Because only by name, they call upon God for victory. And the effect today we see, Defeat, failure, abandonment of God's people. And that verdict you both can be seen written in many buildings today. We bear Him Lord Jesus Christ. But glory departed. It is a very solemn word. We as God's people and God's servants must take heed of these words in the book of God. We cannot change divine laws. Then we find how glory departed. And it had to go through many years of hardship afterwards. And God used four persons, as you see in this book, to bring back the departed glory. First, Hannah. Second, Samuel. Third, David. And fourth, Solomon. These four characters take a prominent part to bring back the departed glory. We also want to see God's glory coming to us fully in another place. We also want to see God's glory coming to us fully in another place. We also have to recognize these four important divine laws. First, see how Hannah came to pray. First, Samuel. First, Daniel. First, verse 10. Because she was barren, he had no children for some time. Even though she was very God fearing, as she prayed earnestly, she prayed with tears. But her prayers were not answered. God is silent. She went on weeping even. Scripture says, in bitterness of thoughts, she wept. Now, why is God silent? Because her prayers were selfish. Oh God, take away my reproach. Make me happy. Take away my bitterness. Give me a child. Bless my home. Hear my prayers. See my tears. All these prayers were centered around herself, her own needs. And that's why God is silent. Now she discovers after much prayer, God also has got some need. That we also fail to understand. That is a great mystery. God wants us, you and me, to be co-workers. Going by 1 Corinthians 3 verse 9, we are laborers together with God. 2 Corinthians 6 verse 1, we are workers together with Him. And nowhere in Scripture we ever read, angels being called co-workers with God. You can go through the whole Bible. You won't find any reference anywhere, where God called angels His co-workers. But we foolish human beings, weak human beings, full of defilement corruption, can become God's co-workers. Work laborer together with God. Worker together with Him. So after much bitterness of soul, Hannah learned a lesson. God also has got some need. Even though we don't see Him in detail or imaginable here, but we can guess. When Hannah would be saying, Oh God, why are you silent? It's a long time, for so many years, I've been seeking Thy face, and calling upon Thee for my need. Why is it, Oh God, You are silent? Why don't You answer my prayer? I love Thee. I want to serve Thee. My Lord said to her, What about my need? You have question about your need? What about my need? I am asking very, very patiently. I want you to be my co-worker, and meet my need. Then her eyes opened. God wants me to be her co-worker. I am her co-worker. I am her partner. And that's why, her prayer was changed afterwards. In verse 11, in 1 Samuel, in verse 11, God will give me a man child. He will be lent back to Thee. And God heard the prayer. Now if God wanted, He sent an angel to rebuke Eli. He sent an angel to feed Eli, didn't He? In 1 Kings 19. God sent an angel to fill him to go to Gaza. He sent an angel to now rebuke the Lord Jesus Christ. Also, He sent an angel to resurrect the Lord Jesus Christ. He sent an angel to feed him in the prison. He has got many angels. God could have sent an angel. But not that way. Also, if God could speak to Samuel directly, why can't He speak to Eli directly? He has heavenly plans. He wanted Hannah to be His partner at that time. Hannah never knew what honor we could put upon her in becoming God's partner. Many of us only think of salvation. Getting what we need from God. But don't you guys, God also have got some need to be met to you and me. Even though we are mortal, foolish, weak, wretched human beings, here we have the honor to become God's worker and meet God's need. When Hannah met God's need and willing to give back child to God, she was blessed with whole nation was blessed. Also, our prayers are very selfish. Some of us only pray for our own family. God bless me and my wife and my children. Amen. And you find them later on. You may have to pray for a few friends, a few neighbors. Are your sweeter cities sweeter cities? Our prayers are selfish. As gospel workers, learn to travel in harmony for the whole India, for the whole world. Then this bond of prayer was given to us in the year 1933 in India, in Karachi. I only began to pray for Karachi. Because that was a very big city, very worldly city. Then I began to pray for Sindh, the province of Sindh. Then I began to pray for the whole Punjab and Sindh also. Then I began to pray for whole India. Then for the whole world. But it took me more than five years to learn my lesson. Five years. We had to pray for hours and whole night in some places. We only got to work in a small area. Only in the year 1938, the month of June 1938, we began to pray for the whole world. We divided ourselves into small groups. Now we had 19 nights of prayer in Kedgaon, in Pune at that time. After the evening meeting, we divided people into four groups. First of all, for every province. Like Punjab and UP, Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra, Gujarat, let me. And after a while, we began to pray for Asia. By name. China, Japan, Philippines, Sumatra, Java, so on. Then we prayed for Europe and Africa and America. Then God began to work. After our prayer circuit began to enlarge, before that, we had to pray earnestly. In the end, we could not see God looking more deeply. We saw some blessing, no doubt. But not full blessing. It's only when our vision was enlarged. Then we saw God looking more deeply. Now we see Him looking today even in many parts of the world. And we thank God for the honor we have to this co-worker. And that's why we want you to learn how to pray earnestly, how to pray without ceasing, how to train prayer to everything. We are working on the whole world. Because we are doing new work in the whole world. My own nation. Not only in Hyderabad or India, the whole world. And with that burden we want to pray for each other. Now you are beginning to see something of the growing and the moving of God's spirit in many parts of the world. It requires a prayer. But I first received invitation to go to Australia in 1958. Then I was in calling form. I still remember the whole night prayer we had that day. I didn't know. I had no thought of going at that time to Australia. So I mentioned the request to the other of the calling form to pray for the request we had received from Australia in 1958. And that request was signed by three or four pastors, leading pastors of the Sydney city and also Melbourne. I can still hear the agonies and prayers at that time, that night. One by one, one by one, they all began to travail and inspire. So there we gave the conviction, God has a purpose to be fulfilled in Australia. God did help us, Mandapuri also. We had a meeting for about three months in Australia. Again, because of lack of prayer, supper prayer, again the enemy got in. The same leading pastors who had testified so boldly about Sydney blessing began to go back afterwards. We began there Sunday worship gathering in 1958 for breaking of bread. And many testified one by one how much they were blessed by taking part in the gathering. And for a few months they kept having regularly. But again, the enemy repositioned. Going by the system, they brought in by voting on God's demand to vote against the worship meeting. But even though they worked still for a while, but God was moving. He was working. Then he sent his brother Nicholas from Colombo to Australia after he retired from the service. After much struggle and much battle, much conflict, now they have come to worship together. How devil resists and fights against to testimony. He not concerned with ordinary meeting. Only when you obey fully, then devil comes in. Now he is saying we need three testimonies in Australia to God witnesses. By the need of prayer. By the need of prayer. We know how envious that is, the growth. That he must be divine principles for the coming down of God's glory. If he can't go to Australia or other part of the world, but we can sway on their behalf upon our knees day and night as Lord leads us. Lord is doing a new thing in Australia. Go on. Hasn't finished yet. We got promised. He wants rivers of life to flow to the whole country of Australia. And many parts of Asia. And many parts of the world also. We found that also recently in Switzerland. It took me more than two months to be sure of God's will before accepting him to go to Switzerland. My efforts were owed to me. My efforts were rejected by others. I don't want to go. So I kept on waiting and waiting. Every time I wanted to write, I couldn't come, Lord hindered me. It took me more than two months to be sure of God's will. After I found all these seven evidences of God's perfect will, I agreed to go. And from that evening I started. I began to see God in a special way. He went on giving wonderful context for God's message all along the way. Those who have a special need learn how to meet God's need. He may use us for one person or more is up to him. May tell we God send Philip to Ethiopian, one person. Only one person. God will call the apostles and company to Philippi, one woman, Lydia. They have every plan. God himself goes to one woman in Samaria, John chapter 4. So God knows the need of His servants everywhere. And I came across people from all parts of the world in Switzerland. People representing more than 145 countries. But my main burden was, God show me thy need now in this Congress. Let me meet those people for whom God has sent me over here with thy message. So the big gathering with more than 4,000 altogether was there at that time. 2,700 delegates and remaining visitors and guests. About 100 people. There's so many more people. Every day I met some people with special needs. There's been so many needs, so many places. And some people who have come to our meeting more than 35 years ago, they were there. And I still remember what God said at that time. And God reminded me how our labor was now wasted. I received Isaiah 55 Book of Isaiah and chapter 55. Verse 11. So shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth. It shall not return unto me wild. It shall come without a plea. It shall prosper nothing where to I said it. When we still began the work in Madras city in the year 1941, many leading Christian men thought we are doing something against the word of God. And they began to oppose us very severely. They tried all possible means in the God world. But we have learned one lesson not to take any notice of their opposition and their remarks and scandal stories. But go on praying for severely whole night or whole day. For more than 6-7 years we had all night prayer every Saturday. And praying for prayer also once a week. And we prayed earnestly for the whole world. Oh God send forth thy witnesses from India to all parts of the world. So we can go to earn money and for business and money for the world. Why can't they do us from India in the gospel? Now the very same message we are repeating now to here in Congress. Are we free of the world? And when people are revived they can be reduced also. How can dead people go in that way? They are living in sin and shame. They must be revived. Give a new life. A brand new name. A heavenly plan. Heavenly foundation. Heavenly architecture. Only then they can see God's word going forth bringing forth such fruit. We found the same message we are repeating today in the very same Congress. That you have a common desire among the leaders of all nations. God will do a new work and a deep work and a abiding work and a lasting work and the whole world through a living church the true church only then they can see God moving. And many have returned with a new message from the Lord as they heard the message here and there. What we have learned after many years of struggle and battle fairly honored to share now with many countries in a short time. And many told me Brother we have been praying for you for many years. I felt so humbled for them. I have forgotten them but they remembered. A few words spoken in prayer or otherwise and given them a prayer in many parts of Europe many parts of Africa many parts of the world many parts of the country. I do not know how they heard it but they said to me again and again we have heard much about it we are praying for you. Lord gave us the privilege to share the message with many of many countries. And we thank you for your prayer. We all have a share in it. There is no eternity fully what we have received through your prayer. May God make us like Hannah today travailing agonizing as God's co-workers as God's partners as God's co-laborers knowing God's need in every country not only India. Not only India but all over the world God has made us like Hannah with the burden and labor God has made us like Hannah. Our burden is God's message may go from here or from India and Asia or from the world. But labor as God's co-workers Lord what is thy need today? Australia, America, Africa, China, Japan, Russia, any part of the world. I never knew our plane will go via Moscow this time. They told us when we started from Bombay, we are going via Moscow, Russia. So we got there in the morning about 11 o'clock, on Sunday the 15th, the 14th. It's a very large airport. There's so many nice things to see with their manufacturing. So I said, Lord, I'm not coming here to see these things. They can't help me very much. I don't buy it anyway. I don't buy anything. I have to buy one corner and pray. Lord, I cry and lie in hatred over here. Even though I can't preach, I can pray my faith. Lord, give us your inheritance in Russia. And a bundle of prayer for those who are in tribulation in Russia now. And then so we kept on claiming God's post in many countries. In Persia and Turkey and Middle East and Far East, Europe and America, every country. We recovered your prayers. God, you do a new work in every part of the world. You pray earnestly this evening as you go home. Oh, Lord, make me a henna vessel. Like you, co-worker, because of my weakness and limitation, teach me how to pray and pray earnestly as a co-worker. I will meet thy need in any country as I know it best. Any way that works best. Either by my life or by my substance or by my prayer or anything. We have begun to see something new. There are going to be 90 happenings in the coming years, in the coming months. The very fact that we have so many shortages these days, shortage of rice, and the wheat, and the oil, and calcium oil, and soap even. Anything. When you go to the shop, not available. Shortage. The very beginning of trouble. God wants to be ready. Before the worst trouble comes, be ready. And pray on the Lord, we may cross with co-workers like Henna, then Samuel, then David, then Solomon. In Henna, we learned how to pray. Samuel got mouthpiece. God's prophet, God's messenger, God's voice, and authority. We need to assemble. Many countries, many brotherhoods. Hold yourself when folded. Be like you and God yourself. Be like you and God yourself. By the power of God, it is powerful. Only that can divide the flame of fire. In David, we know God's mind, God's plan. That is the first chronicle. And chapter 28, and verse 19. God gave his writing, the pattern of all these things in detail to David. And before God could give David the pattern, he brought David on the testing floor onto occasion. First chronicle, chapter 13. And second chapter, chapter 24. The testing floor is a place where you separate the grain and the chaff. What we call rhythm, God calls chaff. That's our trouble. We sing, we have much rhythm. And God says, look into my eyes. And then I see. I may say, I may say, I may say, I may say, I may say, I may say, I may say, And what seventh? First king, sixth seventh. And the house, the building, was built out of stone, merely before it was brought there, they were in the hammer, not yet any tool were heard in the building, willing. Now, salamana means peace. A man of peace, God used him to build the building, before that building came down. And we are told, even though they used many large stones, when they were brought in the building, nobody heard any sound, either axe or hammer, any tool. Even for a small hut, you require hammer and nail. Indian is building, no hammer, no axe, no iron tool, and no sound heard. The work went on so peacefully, so quietly. What a building! That speaks of love, cooperation, oneness, unity, heavenly plan, and a heavenly architect. Everybody doing his job, no jealousy, no suspicion, no contention, no starving, no greed, no carelessness. Fire came down, that's our need today, oneness. Among believers, everywhere, contention, parties, jealousy, covetousness, greed, suspicion, glorious scandals, they can't live together. That is their nature also. But to have true glory, we need all these four characters. We live by faith. Lord, raise up vessels like Hannah, who know how to pray at Thy coverture. Vessels like Samuel, who be Thy mouthpiece, who give Thy voice, and Thy messenger in Thy message, giving very boldly, vessels like David, heavenly plan, and Solomon, to oneness and unity among Thyself, among Thy people. Then we shall see true glory, for the whole world, not only for one place. Let me keep upon our knees and faces and learn how to become Hannah. Knowing God's mind and God's need, God will reward you. You can pray at home, early morning, or midday, or midnight, or among yourself. You can start a prayer group in your neighborhood, and then you will see God's true glory. Lord, I want to say thank Thee for bringing us together. Thank Thee for reminding us to bring back our shared glory. By doing new work, and deep work, and body work in every part of the world, show us our share in that great task. Make all Thy Hannah vessels, and Thy Samuel vessels, and David vessels, and Solomon vessels. You will see Thy glory coming down in many parts of the world. Oh God, give us a thrilling part of prayer for many countries. We pray in the name of Lord Savior. Amen.
Ichabod: The Glory Departed
- Bio
- Summary
- Transcript
- Download

Bakht Singh Chabra (1903 - 2000). Indian evangelist, church planter, and Bible teacher born in Joiya, Punjab (now Pakistan), to a devout Sikh family. Educated at Punjab University, he studied agricultural engineering in England (1926-1928) and Canada (1929-1932), embracing a Western lifestyle, including smoking and drinking, while rejecting his Sikh roots by shaving his hair. Initially hostile to Christianity—once tearing a Bible apart—he converted in 1929 in Winnipeg after reading the New Testament, influenced by Christian friends John and Edith Hayward. Returning to India in 1933, he began preaching as an Anglican evangelist, later becoming independent, sparking the 1937 Martinpur revival, a pivotal movement in Indian Christianity. In 1941, after a night of prayer in Chennai, he founded Hebron Ministries, establishing over 10,000 indigenous churches modeled on New Testament principles across India and South Asia. Singh authored books like How I Got Joy Unspeakable and Full of Glory and held annual “Holy Convocations” in Madras, Hyderabad, Ahmedabad, and Kalimpong, drawing thousands. Married to Rama Bai at age 12 in 1915, little is recorded of their personal life. His contextualized gospel, blending Indian spirituality with biblical truth, earned him the title “Elijah of the 21st Century” in Indian Christendom. Singh’s words, “I have never asked any man for anything, but the Lord is richly supplying all my needs,” reflect his faith-driven ministry. Despite Parkinson’s disease in his final decade, his legacy endures through Hebron’s global network and writings, praised by figures like Ravi Zacharias.