Jim Logan addresses the challenges faced by teens who are out of control, emphasizing the two primary types of demonic attacks: those that lead to wrongful actions and those that induce overwhelming feelings. He highlights the importance of understanding a teenager's perspective, the need for hope and vision for their future, and the significance of listening to their concerns. Logan also discusses the impact of family dynamics on teen behavior and the necessity of addressing underlying issues rather than just symptoms. He encourages parents and counselors to provide support and guidance while being sensitive to the spiritual battles that teens may face.

Even this morning, I've been thinking, and I keep getting stuff, and I keep writing it down. Because I don't know if Neil has this problem, but I do. And that is, when you do this all the time, you assume eventually people are on your page. I mean, it's just like, oh, yeah. I mean, don't you know that? And it's like, well, you're not doing it all the time. But it's just there. And so sometimes we fail in sharing some important stuff we've learned simply because it's just always. But there are only two kinds of demonic attacks that come to individuals. And get them down, because it's not, go to the notes in your thing, because we're going to really follow that outline. But this is not in that outline. The two kinds of attacks, not only kids that people have. One is the attack basically to get them to do stuff. The other is attacks basically to feel. Now, there's feeling with doing, but the emphasis of the doing is to do things that aren't right. The emphasis of the feeling, it just wipes them out to do anything. And basically, when I counsel, I find that men are doers and women are feelers, right? Do you know, and I'll get into, I shouldn't be going, but what does God say that a woman's major problems are? Two things, anger and worry. And her anger comes out of worry, because God tells her to develop a meek and a quiet spirit. Meekness is the opposite of anger, and a quiet spirit is the opposite of fear. So Satan's going to attack a woman or even a teenage girl. What is he going after? And the reason wives get angry, because they're fearful, because they're married to deadheads. Can't you see what's happening? Can't you see what's going on? You know, when the kid gets arrested by the police, the guy says, oh yeah, we've got a problem. Mom saw it six years before, but he wasn't listening. So that's why often a woman's anger comes out of her fear. And she has to just get angry to get a hearing, something's wrong in this family, something's wrong with our kids. But most of the guys are doing stuff. And they're being, so if you can have those two things, knowing that probably this teenage guy that you're dealing with has some secret stuff that he's doing that he's trapped in. Okay, the second thing, and this is a thing I thought of before I shared yesterday, how do you determine if a teenager is under demonic influence? Just because someone wants to bring their kids here, this is impossible. Kevin was my intern for two years, is running the camera. And I show up at the office at five o'clock in the morning to begin to do callbacks at people that call the office. And someone was asking Kevin at the table, and Kevin was saying, well, Logan probably had 50 callbacks on his desk, and I had 30 more on mine. So how do we determine who flies into Sioux City? When you've got all of these people calling, all these people hurting, all these people with rebellious kids, and they're adults too, but I'm just saying, how do we determine is this teenager under demonic influence? Just because he doesn't make his bed, or just because he sasses his dad doesn't mean that you ought to fly him here, because it's expensive. We don't charge, but you know what it costs to fly into Sioux City, and to stay at the motel for a week, for 15 hours of counseling? So I'll tell you, this is just a simple rule of thumb. What is normal sin is not normal. That which would be normal stuff is no longer normal. Has anyone in this room never been angry? I don't see a hand, just kneels, okay? So see, everybody gets angry. So you get angry, do you need to call Neil Anderson and make an appointment? No, but if you're an angry man, that is a different story. When that, what should be a normal issue, now defines who you are, there's a good indication what? There's enemy involvement. For a believer that is always angry, or always into this, always into something else. Who hasn't worried? But let me tell you, when you start having panic attacks, and you live in fear all the time, I believe there's enemy involvement. And so I wanna hear that. Why do you think your son needs to come here? Why do you think I need to talk to him? And they begin to tell me. And I think he should have been here two years ago, for some of them. This kid is really bad, really evil, really under something. You can tell it's his lifestyle. It's becoming a lifestyle, it's a lifestyle of evil, and yet he's a born again believer. And he can't stop. That's a real indication. We'll get into the sexual stuff later on, but this is just generally thing, I'm listening to see, should they really come? Because I don't wanna waste parents' money. And I wanna really be sure that he needs the kind of help that we could give him at our office. All right. Okay, point number one. And I told you the story where I was at Indianapolis teaching course three, got there early and went to a church. Since I'm not an Indianapolis person, I didn't know what church to go to. They said, why don't you go to this particular church? So we went to that church, and I didn't know, the mother had prayed that maybe they would bump into me. Well, Indianapolis is kind of big. And I'm in the church, and the church is big. This is a huge Baptist church. And I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. The choir, like I could go home now. I was edified by the choir music. I didn't have to close my eyes to the pom-pom dancers and all of that stuff. I didn't know churches even had choirs that sang hymns anymore. And then a men's group got up and sang, and I was sitting with a missionary to Indians, Apache Indians. I said, oh man, it's been years since I've been in church and felt I was raised to the presence of God without wiggling or dancing in the aisles. It was just absolutely fabulous service. Then the guy got up and he preached on the 10 commandments. It's one of the best things I ever heard, on commandment number one. I mean, I went, I was so excited. Praise God, I left here edified. I left here really so encouraged in the Lord and in the Spirit. And I'm walking up the aisle, and this lady grabs me, and I'm like, get your hands off me, woman. You know, who is this lady? I don't know who she is. And she had a bunch of kids with her, and she said, oh, we've been praying to see you. And my sons turned around and said, Logan's here. And he said, that's the answer to prayer. And what I counseled were two boys who had been counseled by everybody. I mean, I heard about these boys, how they had to go to the house because one boy was gonna shoot his brother with an arrow and kill him. We're not talking about, you know, situations kind of, I mean, like, should we get the police, whatever. And the kid's 15, and his brother's 13. Well, anyway, the boy told me to tell you this because he's really excited because God has so changed his life. I said, can I talk about you? He said, I don't care, tell him who I am even. Okay, he said, Logan, can I be your roommate when you do the prayer retreat? I said, sure. So he's gonna fly up to upper Michigan to spend a week with me. He'll be in the other two rooms. He could be in the other room. And he said, I just wanna hang out. We could pray together, and you could teach me scripture. I mean, this is a kid that is a mess, totally different. And so, you know, I saw them at the training center. I counseled both boys. I did everything right. I used all the right stuff. I took them through my agenda, and they went through the agenda, and they prayed the prayers, and they did all of this, and they asked forgiveness to each other, asked forgiveness of the mother, and everything was like beautiful. You know, sort of a Disney World ending to these rebellious boys. And I told you, five weeks later, I get a phone call, and the mom says, I gotta get this kid out of the house. He's worse than when you talk to him. And I said, before you get rid of him, can I talk to him? I talked to the kid on the phone for maybe a half hour. His life was transformed. This kid is brilliant, homeschooled. She couldn't get him out of the bedroom to do schooling. I've been calling him once a week. He's now finished this whole semester. I mean, the whole year of homeschooling, so far now, this year. Got it all done. The only thing he's struggling with is some kind of math, and they have to get some kind of, I don't know, math that I don't even know how to spell it. You know, I mean, this kid is really, really smart. But what was, I left out. I mean, I did everything right. What was the thing I left out? And I asked him on the phone, because I figured it out. Finally came to me. Why when I talked to him the second time, I wasn't all prepared. I didn't even know what I was gonna say to the kid. But I prayed and asked the Holy Spirit to help me. I mean, he knows these people, that I would say the right stuff. And I said the right stuff. I said, do you know what transformed your life? He said, let me think. Yeah, I know. See, what I left out was giving him hope for the future. Without a vision, what's gonna happen? People come to nothing and teens come to nothing. This kid had not connected his behavior with where he wanted to go. And so most of you know, I'm not the nicest counselor that you could counsel with. I'm not afraid to say it. So I said to the kid, well, I said, I guess the behavior you're doing and you realize what you're doing is one. Yeah, he knew his values. He knew he was giving his mother fits. He knew that he would fight with his brother and he was stronger so he could beat him up. I said, do you plan on flipping hamburgers at McDonald's when you grow up? Oh no, I wanna be a senator or a congressman. You know, as soon as I finish this stuff, I wanna finish early so I can go to law school. So I had to point out what, if he kept going where he was going, he was gonna end up at McDonald's, not a lawyer. And it clicked with him. He had already done everything right, but he'd never made the connection between his lifestyle now and where he wanted to go. And I'm telling you, we've got to give hope to these kids. It's not just clearing up the past, but what about getting their nose pointed in the right direction? And I'll tell you, kids need hope. We need to visualize achievement for them. You don't need to visualize specific achievement because you don't know. I didn't say, I think you ought to be a senator. How do I know what God wants for his life? But you can give him general vision for the abilities they have or what is their dream? Where do they wanna go? Some kids don't wanna go anywhere, but kids that do wanna go, give them hope. And I'll tell you, you'd be amazed how their lives are transformed. They've already took care of all the junk, but they're going back to their stuff. So give them hope. Now, I think in your notebook, I read this. I don't know where I read it. Oh, I know, it was a devotional book. It's on there, where I gave you that thing of hope. You got a thing in there in hope. I think it's kind of neat. It's like a one-page thing from, who was it? Some guy in the past. I don't know, it was Spurgeon or somebody. Yeah, yeah, it's the catechism of hope. So it must've been not Spurgeon. It had to be the other guy, the Presbyterian guy. Yeah, whatever it is, I can't hear you, but anyway, it's in there. But the importance of hope is very important that people would have. Number two, in giving help to teens, what's the second most important thing you can do if you really want to help them change their life? You've got to see their situation from their perspective. You know how you do that? Be a good listener. Hear what the kids are saying. Don't tell, don't sell, just listen. A Christian organization, one of their board members is in the medical profession, and he has a rebel for a son. Which doesn't fit the organization he's on the board with. If I told you you'd know the organization and some of the neat people involved in that organization, this kid's a real rebel. And the kid said something to his dad, and I had to tell him, didn't you hear what he said? He said, dad, I don't need a doctor, I need a father. You hearing that? He said, you know my wife had the nerve to tell me? She said, Jim, I don't want your counsel, I want a husband. Isn't that awful? It was a knife in the heart, you know, oh yeah, I hear her, hey, six steps, Marguerite. Say, aren't you glad you didn't marry me? You know, my poor wife, she's put up with so much stuff. But, and that happened in Bible college one time. This kid's sitting there, he's telling me all this trash. So my office at the Bible college was a little bit bigger than the one I have now, but the one I have now is like a, I think my office you've been to it, that most walk-in closets are bigger. So the one at the school was even smaller. And so the filing cabinet, so I was opening a filing cabinet because I had a handout for his mess. And he looked at me and he said, Dr. Logan, I don't want your papers, I want you to listen to me. No, I said, you're right, I was wrong. Yeah, because often we know the answers. I mean, there's only so much evil a person could do. You're limited by your body, you know, and you hear it all the time and you know, oh yeah, I got this paper, it's a superhero. Neil Anderson wrote it, it's gonna work. Maybe, you know, do the seven things and you'll be fine. And that's not what people want. Okay. The third thing are why are teens noses part of the problem? Did you figure that one out? You know why? They're too short. Aren't they? How far does a teen usually look? About this far. They've got to, you've got to show them how their choices right now are going to affect what? The future. They don't see that. The kids are more now, right now. And I've got to try to show them that if they keep going the direction they're going, do you see where you're gonna end up? And is that where you really wanna go? And so constantly remember that. I mean, it kind of fits the first one too. This boy was looking at what? I wanna beat up my brother, I don't like doing school, yet I wanna be a congressman. Well, probably he fit as a congressman for some of them. You know, not educated or at least not smart. Okay, now how do counselors abuse teens? This is, oh, I gotta share this with you. This is a freebie, write it down the side. Because it's on this page, if I don't, you won't get it. And I just found this out last week. Beware of counselors that have all the answers. Those guys haven't even found the bus stop. Nobody has all the answers except the Lord. And I can't tell you how much praying I do. I say, I have to go to the bathroom. And I'm going to the bathroom, you know what I'm doing? Lord, what do I do with this guy? You know, what I do? You brought him here, this is your kid, it's not my kid. Or this is your man, it's not my man. Lord, you gotta tell me what to do. And the Holy Spirit can tell you. You can do some of the most amazing things. Learn to counsel by the seat of your pants. God lays something in your heart you never did before, do it. Do you understand the voice of the Lord? Do you know how God speaks to you? God gives you direction, do it. God knows, and it may be the very thing that's gonna turn the whole thing around. But this is something I shared with those that we train for counseling that just came to me. I mean, maybe you've found it before, I never found it before. That God of this world, Satan uses truth to defeat people. I'm not talking about truth of past failures. I'm not talking about accusations of things done in the past. I'm saying using right now truth. Okay, I'm old, I'm bald, that's true. I'm getting pudgy, that's true. And I draw a line is that you'll reject me. It's all true. And a fellow that I knew who had been greatly used in the lives of people, setting them free, was having nightmares every night, was thinking of killing himself, was thinking of ways of killing himself. And he would drive home at night after work, park and cry for an hour, an hour and a half. And his folks only knew he was depressed. And every attack of Satan was true. There wasn't one false thing in there. When he drew, when Satan draws a line and adds it up, and I've never had that. Usually it's accusing, you know, look, you've done this, you've done that, you're doing that, God can't use you. It was none of that stuff. So searching his heart, it wouldn't go anywhere. You know, there must be some something I haven't confessed. This is why it's going on. It's not there. Let me tell you about searching your heart. I don't think you ought to do it. I don't see it in the scripture, except two times in the New Testament. One is to see if you're in the faith. The other is at the communion table, right? I had the privilege of going to Biola. So anything great here is because I went to Biola. And when I was at Biola, I hit the pits. I was married, I had two kids, I was out of the army, I was trying to get educated and work 40 hours a week. And this is back when they required so much homework for every hour of class was hard. And I was getting more depressed, more depressed, more depressed. It wasn't my dark night of the soul that you can get from another ministry or from radio Bible, what's not radio Bible? They don't call it radio Bible class anymore. What do they call it? They have a TV program. Day of Discovery. Day of Discovery, the fellow who does their TV programs heard me share the dark night of the soul. And they did two TV programs on my message, which I didn't know they did. They sent me the video so I could watch them. One is with Johnny Erickson and one is someone else. That if you've never had dark night of the soul experience, you don't understand what I'm talking about. I mean, it's horrible. It's that tunnel that gets darker and darker and deeper and deeper. And I went through that when I was vice president of CEF. And it was horrible. I mean, I would never wanna go through it again. One time enough, God, I think I learned everything from that I wanna learn. It was so awful. I mean, it's the most hopeless thing you could ever go through. You have fears, irrational fears. It was just horrid. Well, anyway, this fellow was there and we talked once a week and it was getting worse and worse. It was long distance. I couldn't touch him. I couldn't reach him. And every week I was glad when I got to him because I wasn't sure that possibly this warfare counselor, I consider a very godly person, would be alive. And when we get down to the hardest thing for a teenager to do, which is at the end of this, I'll tell you what he did and what broke it. But I'll tell you, every day was worse and worse. Didn't sleep all night long. Couldn't get to sleep till two o'clock in the morning and then had nightmares. He was being killed or he was killing people. It was just unbelievably horrid. You don't wanna go to sleep because it's so awful, but if you don't sleep, how can you do what you're supposed to be doing? It was a horrible thing that he went through. Okay, and we will go there, but I want you to know that that was a dimension I've never seen before where Satan only used truth. And be alert to that. Now, why don't you search your heart? You do it at the communion table. It's a stop and start there. I gotta go back to the Biola thing. At Biola that time, before Neil was on campus, they did not allow counseling. We were taught psychology, how to psychologize people in your church and stuff, but there was no counselors there. And if you went to, Dr. McGee was my pastor and Dr. McGee would have said, well, pray about it, get out of here. He was not a counselor. So I knew there was one godly woman on campus that I could go talk to, an English teacher. And I went in and I told her what I was going through. I said, I feel hopeless. I feel, oh, it was awful. And she said, did it start at the day of prayer? He said, where he had us all go into our hearts and examine our hearts before the Lord. I said, yeah. He said, he never got us out of there, did he? And she said, when you were going through the garbage of your life, what did you expect to find? I thought maybe a half-eaten pizza or something. And what was I finding? I was finding what God said, in my flesh dwells what? No good thing. And I was coming, you know, all this, it's just wiping me out. How could I ever be a pastor? What am I doing in school? Why am I killing myself trying to get through this dumb school so I can do something for God when this is going on? And she got me out of my soul. So we don't have counselees get into themselves. We use Psalm 139. Search me, O God, and know my heart. Let the Holy Spirit do it. What's the Holy Spirit's job? To convict of what? Sin, risks, and judgment. Can the Holy Spirit do it or do I have to help him out? Let me tell you, when I have to help the Holy Spirit out, I may get into muck that I can't muck out of. You understand what I'm saying? See, when we have a wonderful paper that you've got in this package, that you're going to get by Warren Rusby, it's worth its weight in gold. I give it to almost all my counselees because they're there. He says, woe be to the Christian that can't tell the difference between the convicting work of Satan. I mean, pardon me, the convicting work of the Holy Spirit and the condemning work of Satan. And it tells you how to discern the difference. And it's excellent. And so many, because, you know, the first day I hear these guys, and man, oh man, they read that and they go, man, now I know what's going on. Because even the attacks they're getting is true. You know, as a kid he did this, and he did this, and he did this, he has all, and it's all into the blood, but he still did it. You know, Satan knows your past. And he loves to use it. So, you know, don't get people mucked into themselves. Let the Holy Spirit do it. And the Holy Spirit does a better job because the Holy Spirit sometimes will bring up stuff they would have skipped. That was really a key of why they're under bondage. Because it didn't seem that big compared to this big stuff here. I'll tell you, when you let the Holy Spirit be involved in your counseling sessions, you may find a lot of wonderful things happening that never happened before, because you're listening to the Spirit of God. He's in that person. He knows what's going on. And he can bring it to the mind. We ask him to do that. Okay. Okay. Now, how do counselors abuse teens? If you haven't written anything down, write this one down. Putting my agenda before God. Running teens through my sheep dip to get rid of all the fleas. Not depending on the Holy Spirit. God brought them there. God knows what they need. But I've got to get them through my seven steps, my 10 steps, my 12 steps, or whatever. And that's when the steps don't work. Nothing wrong with steps. We use steps. See, we need to have an agenda. We need to know where we're going to stop and where we want to finish, right? I mean, in the counseling session, we want to know where we want to go. But I can't put my steps, agenda, or whatever over the kid. And they know it if you're doing that. Kids know whether you're pushing them through the sheep dip or whether you care. I didn't think it was that funny. Kids don't think that's funny either, you know? It's a guy taking out the trash. Okay. So we want to plan, but be flexible in your plan. Hear the heart of the kid. And don't keep trying to push them. And I can tell you, I could bring literally at least 1,000 people in here that have gone through our office that are walking with God today that were a mess before they walked in. And it was learning not to force them through my stuff, my agenda. What? Well, let's stop right there. And those five things, you have any questions? Maybe I haven't been real clear. If you have any questions, I would like to answer before we go into some of the issues. But this is just some basic stuff to think about if you're gonna work with teenagers or anybody, but teens. Especially. Teens are very sensitive. You know who's the most sensitive in counseling I found? The fellows are more sensitive than girls. You know, they want to lose their macho-ness or whatever. You know, they're real protective. Okay. Now, some teen issues. I don't have them all on here, but I will not counsel someone that's not a Christian. See, I'm not in the church. And why bring a non-Christian all the way across the United States, take him to a pastor, let this guy get saved, that may clear up everything. So all the kids I do counsel, I assume they're Christians. Some are not, but at least they may, you know, profession, they go to church or whatever. But I don't counsel unsaved. I do when I like did the thing with Ron, because there's, you know, so many 700 dads and kids there. You know, I've led some of the kids to the Lord. They didn't even know the Lord. You know, and that helps a lot. But sometimes bondages before salvation remain bondages after salvation. Hey, I resent that. Yeah, as I said, you add it up. When you add up all the truth, the bottom line is not true. But it's not as like you think. I mean, it's so deceptive. It's so deceptive. You know, if he'd have got a thought, you know, go out and have sex with a girl, that's the enemy. Boom, you know, right away, he'd have resisted that. But there wasn't any of that stuff at all. Yeah, the question was, I can't remember, what was your question? Yeah, yes, and that is how Satan can use total truth to defeat somebody. The hard part was, really, because this person was not someone I didn't know. This person is someone that I loved very much and was very close to me. And I knew that the bottom line was not true. But if I would have said that, it wouldn't have worked because the bottom line still was true. I don't wanna go into the whole thing, but even when you add it up, it was true. But how it was taken was wrong. It wasn't obvious. I mean, this person counsels people, knows about Satan's deception. In fact, this person has taught counseling with me. You know what I mean? It wasn't like someone that didn't know anything. This is someone that knows as much about this stuff as I do. Yes, ma'am, way back there. Okay, that's a good question. When you go, if someone comes to you for counseling and they are, you know, you're counseling their kids and they would like to have a lot of info about the counseling session, what I found, and I never even thought of putting that one down, is that if I really help a teenager, and we'll get into some really awful sexual stuff, I have the kids connect with their dad, share with their dad. There is confidentiality. Okay. Okay, let's say that your son has been secretly on the internet at night pulling up pornography, getting into weird pornography and masturbating with it. So he tells me. The folks don't know that he's slipping down. In fact, I got a real weird story to tell later on of a younger man was worse than this, but they don't know that's going on. If that kid, if I help that kid, what's he gonna do? He's gonna go to his parents and he's gonna clear his conscience with them and ask forgiveness for what he's done and get his dad praying for him. Dad, would you pray for me? Dad, I've got a real issue here. And I'll share some real stories there that was very hard for the kids to do because they think their dad's gonna reject them. That's what the kids fear, is if my folks know this, they'll kick me out or they'll reject me. And you have to get a feel for the parents too. I would be concerned. I'd be concerned because are they with you or against you? Some counselors, I don't have a right, unless you're evil parents, you know what I'm saying, to give the kids counsel that's against your family values. Boy, let me tell you, I get a lot of that because I counsel, I've ministered in all the major homeschool conventions in America, and they're large, 15,000, 12,000, with 17,000 in LA, I've been there numerous times. So when the parents bring their kids, they don't want me to tell the kids, you need to go to public school. Do you understand what I'm saying? On public school, solve your problem. I'm not going to go against the parents. You understand what I'm saying? I'll try to help the kid to hang into homeschooling, but I'm not gonna go against the values, okay? Let's say that you're a family that, our family was, our kids could not date, so they're out of high school. What's that? They knew that. I mean, I was a pastor, I showed them all the girls who were pregnant in our church and all the big mess, I said, I'm sorry, I just don't think you can handle it. I mean, when I taught in Bible college, some of those kids couldn't handle it either. But you know, you just don't do it. Well, I wouldn't want to take my kids to a counselor and say, well, if you were dating, well, sneak around on your dad. How many girls climb out the window? We get all this kind of stuff, guys are climbing out the window. See what I'm saying? How do you know what that counselor's telling them? You know, are they on your page? Do they have your values? If not, I wouldn't take them, because I'll tell you, counselors work against the parents, and that's all the kid needs, is get people on his side against you. And parents would say, did you tell my son this? I said, absolutely not, you know me better than that. I'm not giving away secrets in counseling, because I never said it. I wouldn't say that. That's not who I am. I want to know sort of the values of the parents that work with their kids. I do not want to go against the parents. I mean, who is the authority over kids? I kind of thought the family was. I kind of thought there was a father, you know, honor your father and mother, and yet I'm telling the kid to go against his parents. I don't think that fits Ephesians to get, or the Ten Commandments. You understand what I'm saying? And I would want to know. I'd rather my kids not be counseled than go to someone that's going to turn my kids against me, that are already against me. And maybe the parents need some help. That make sense? Yeah. You know, if it's a real, real secret, I'm wondering, what's the secret? I can't tell you anything. Yes. Oh yes, I counsel a lot of single, well, this kid that, you know, this kid killing his brother? It's a single, it's a single mom. And it's very hard for her. You know, it's hard being a single mom with boys. So we have him go to the mom. Okay, let's get down to some of the issues that we have to deal with. I told you I had to deal with an attempted suicide this week. Had to leave the conference and go deal with someone in town that tried to kill themselves. Teenagers. But I use that story, I'm gonna go back to that story again, because I want you to think through. Here, someone is calling me. I get a lot of calls from missionaries overseas because I traveled overseas and they know who I am. So I get a call from these missionaries overseas, and I'm telling you, they're thousands of miles away from here. And two of their daughters try to kill themselves. Well, the first thing I do when I get calls like this is to show as much compassion and empathy over the phone to those people. I had kids. And what would I do if two of my daughters tried to kill themselves? That would just tear my heart out. And I try to just have the love of Christ just come over that phone to that person. They understand, I understand the pain that they're in as a family. Where would you start? Long distance. They wanted to eventually, on furlough, to come to Sioux City. We get a lot of missionaries on furlough that come through our office, but furlough was a long way off. Have you ever tried to follow a family from wherever they are, a long ways away? The finances are astronomical. You know, to follow a whole family here. Well, think about it. Where would you, who do you get the phone? You weren't expecting this. You're not prepared for this. You get this phone call, and you're talking to this person. This is going on. Where do you start? I'll tell you where you start. With the parents. Not the kids. One kid, maybe. Two kids in one family. What's going on in this family? That's the big question I have. Maybe there's a Holy Spirit, but it seems to me that this is logical. And guess what? Mom and dad did not agree on how to raise these girls. Dad had rules. Mom enforced them, but dad refused. So who's the bad one in the family? Mom is. She's supposed to enforce his standards and rules on their daughters, but when he sees them breaking the rules, he does nothing. I was very sympathetic and empathetic on the phone to start with, but I don't think that dad liked when I got a hold of him. And I went for the threat. And he could see it. I wasn't gonna pussyfoot around. That what he was doing was terrible. It was so terrible that his two daughters wanted to get out of this family, and the only way he got out of this family in a foreign field was to kill himself. And he couldn't do this. I mean, it's a long story, but it was a parental issue. It was not a teen issue. You understand what I'm saying? Well, I tell the girls, you know, don't take those pills again. What's that gonna do long distance? To somebody they don't know, you know, don't take those pills anymore. Promise me you won't take the pills, okay? That's not gonna work. We had to change the what? The situation in which those kids were just absolutely tormented in. It's horrible when mom and dads don't agree. If you're married here, agree. In front of the kids, anyway, fight in the bedroom, or drive to a parking lot, church parking lot, and have a big fight out in the church parking lot, but don't fight in front of the kids. And the kids will play one against the other. They're so good at that. Oh, mom, you know what dad's like? Yeah, I married him. Ha ha ha, you know, I know what he's like. I don't blame you, kid. You know, well, you know, maybe we can get him drinking, maybe be happy, you know, I mean, or something, you know, it's just, it's, I'll tell you a lot of teen issues are what? Mom and dad issues. And sometimes you can't change mom and dad issues. We get a lot of that. But I can change the kid and try to get him plugged into God. Maybe I can't change them. Maybe I can't change this controlling mom that controls her husband and controls everything. I mean, I can't do anything about that. But how do I help a kid to live there? And walk with God in the midst of something that I would not wanna be in myself. That's part of the counseling deal. It's not just dealing with his stuff. He's gotta go back there. You know what I'm saying? How is he gonna handle it there? We gotta add that to what I'm dealing with. I gotta help this kid to live in that situation that is anything but good. So in the suicide issues, the particular Christian girl that did it here said it was an attention thing. Well, then you need to find out what the attention is. I couldn't see this girl until next month. And I told the mom, that's too long. Now, she got out of the hospital Saturday. She doesn't need to wait next month. So Glenn's gonna see her. Glenn could work her in. There's no way I could work this girl in. And Glenn's gonna work her in. But we get, I mean, teenagers, well, teenage suicide, I don't know the statistics, but it's gotta be high. I don't know if Neil's got the statistics on that, but it's gotta be high. Kids that are really hurting, and kids that are cutting themselves, ah, that's unbelievable. Not just the bulimic anorexic bit. They're kids cutting themselves that are neither bulimic or anorexic. A guy that would cut himself so bad he'd have stitches taken about once a week in his legs. Showed me his legs looked like a ladder. He's whacking himself. And when he'd get real angry, mad, he'd, pfft. But, so when there is a suicide issue, get beyond the suicide. Look at the situation. What's the home situation? How, you know, maybe that's where I really need to start. Or maybe it's just like this girl she didn't like. I couldn't see her, the mom and dad aren't together. I mean, it was just on the phone. But, you know, I don't Mickey Mouse around on the phone. I have too many phone calls. I'm gonna get to the throat, let's go through it. And I ask direct questions and try to get some kind of a thought here of what's going on and where can I begin to help. And you could do the same thing. If you're counseling people locally, it's a lot easier. I mean, you realize we're sunk. I mean, we got a week, that's it. In and out, and they're gone. And I can't keep calling everybody that's been there. It'd be impossible. I forget how many phone calls we had last year. Like I had 6,000 or, you know, long distance calls, something like that. And then our counselee, so how do you, you know what I'm saying? It's way over your head, even when I had Kevin up there helping me. Okay, music issues. This is a big issue with teens. Why is it a big issue? Well, write it down if you've never written it down. Music is an expression of the heart. You want to know what's going on in a teen, just find out what he's listening to. Just, there's a counselor here. We're talking about a teen he's gonna have to deal with. And he went to, he's a blogger, and he went and read this stuff on Blogger, and it's Marilyn Manson and this kind of stuff. That's kind of unusual stuff for a committed Christian teen to be listening to and putting on his blog stuff. Marilyn Manson is weird. I was in Tasmania doing a conference there at a university, and Tasmania is a beautiful island off of Australia. You want to figure out, where do I want to retire? Go to, I told my wife. She says, I hate for you going places because you always want to move there. I said, oh, I agree. It is so gorgeous. It's like New Zealand, but smaller. And I'm in Tasmania, and I'm getting on the airplane. I'm sitting next to some guy, and since I'm so shy and have a very difficult time in speaking, you know, right away I'm starting talking to this guy, and he's with the Red River Band. Anybody know what the Red River Band is? It's an Australian band. And I thought, oh, he's probably lying to me. He said, well, we've been in the Fox Theater in St. Louis. Well, I knew what the Fox Theater was. It was one of those theaters that pumped millions of dollars and gilded everything. Again, it's fancy, and he described it, so I knew he was telling me the truth. And he said, you know, he said, I really got an awful thing to do. Marilyn Manson's coming to Sydney, and I'm to set up limousine service and get the airport in his room and all that. I said, you know, this guy's weird. He said, man, I know what he said. I don't really like it. I said, I don't know if you're a Christian or not, but let me tell you, this guy is connecting with Satan and demons. Oh, yeah, I believe in demons. I said, well, this guy's got them. And I said, you know, if I were you, I'd become a Christian and pray God's protection when you have to deal with this screwball, you know? I mean, this guy, you know? I mean, anybody that bites live hegs off a chicken before he sings is not exactly someone I want to go and hear him, you know? I mean, this guy's strange. Well, you know, anyway, when you have a Christian teenager, and that's his stuff, there's another teenage telephone call I got where the folks are listening. I don't know this, I'm not up on teenage music, okay? I don't listen to that stuff. I'm a little more mature. And it's a new thing, and it's like from India, but it's dark. They told me what it was. I never heard it before, I can't remember. But it's the tinkling. So the music is not rock. It's not anything like rock music. It's sort of like melodious, but it's all dark, dark, dark. And the parents were telling me about this, and they're going, our daughter's listening to this stuff, and now she's writing suicide stuff in her journal with the music. Well, so you know, if you're going to help somebody, they're going to have to do something about their music. You can't be listening to this hopeless, you ought to be dead, you know, and all this kind of stuff. And you're counseling them, they go back to that. And that's what's going on, you know? Being filled with the Spirit has something to do with music. I think I read in Ephesians. You know, and it wasn't this dark stuff you're singing in your heart. So how do you deal with music? Well, I have a list. You can listen to these three songs from Sandy Patty, these two from Steve Green, but you can't listen to the, no, that's not my job. I don't have a music, you understand? I don't have a music list. I ask kids this, ask them if they've got a music issue. Are you listening to music your folks don't approve of? Good question, isn't it? It's not what I approve of, it's their parents. Yeah. I said, do you think that's right? You think that's what, as a Christian, you think God wants you sneaking around and listening to music and you're hiding it, that you don't want him, they don't want you to listen to? No, they think it's wrong. So what should you do about it? I probably gotta tell them. Oh, you probably do. You know what they're gonna do? Yeah, they're gonna throw it away. I said, be willing for that. They're gonna trash it. Because they're seeing behavior in your life and they're wondering, what happened? This kid seemed to be so whatever. And now, they've changed. The daughter's become more lewd or whatever's going on. And this is what I tell kids to do, and this really works if they're willing to. A lot of the guys are. They don't like where they are, but they haven't made what? Connections. This horrible music you listen to, you can't have much of a spiritual life listening to music about raping girls. And one guy was listening to this bad music, he'd sit in this church, youth group, wondering which girl he should rape. And I'm going, man, I wouldn't want this kid in my youth group. And he'd always go there when he went back to this horrible music. He said, let me play it for you. These guys were screaming so loud, I couldn't get the words. So I don't get it, I can't hear it. I mean, I hear a lot of noise, but I can't hear what they're saying. So he let me read the lyrics. That stuff, you know, I thought I was reading pornography. They're actually saying this stuff? And you play this stuff all the time? He'd get rid of all that, he would do really fine. He'd go back to his music, he would crash again. And all these thoughts of rape and all this kind of stuff, following this girl, hoping he could drag her down an alley. I mean, just horrible stuff. I said, can't you make the connection between your music and what's going on? And you get back with the Lord and things start going better, and then you go back to your music. So what I have them do, and that is to go on a music fest. This works, guys. That they will not play any music at all for at least one week. Two weeks is better. Now, you're gonna hear music wherever you go, right? You can't play music here. You know, wherever you go, there's music. But this is music they have jurisdiction over. We're not talking about music. We have a guy that drives by our house. Our house sits away from the street. My wife, you know, is pretty much housebound. And so she has her room where she prays and studies and meets God. It's in the back part of the house. You get a whole living room and all this stuff. When he goes by, the windows rattle on the back part of my house. But what am I gonna do? I'm on a music fest, guy. I don't drive on my street. You know what I'm saying? No, I don't have jurisdiction over him. And I'll tell you, when the kids start playing their music, their spirit reacts to it. You know, it's the frog in the water. You know, as it gets deeper and they wanna get more, worse music and more whatever, whatever, whatever. And when their spirit reacts, they're really willing to get rid of it. They said, I can't believe what was happening inside of me. My spirit, the spirit of the Lord was being grieved or whatever. I don't know what he does because I've never had to go through this with a music fest. And the kids are convinced that there's something really wrong here. Now, some kids won't. Well, I can't make them. I'm just suggesting that you wanna deal with your music. You wanna see how it affects you. Then as you're playing the music, be in touch with the spirit inside of you. And I'm not gonna tell them what to listen to or not. They know I'm old and they tell me these groups, I've never heard of them. You know, is this the mafia or a singing group? I can't tell. Yes, go ahead. Yeah, Fred Dickinson shares about people that have been demonized after a scary movie. When I didn't understand warfare and I was pastoring in the state of Washington and the exorcist came out, they're calling my church. You know, I lay in the bed and it shakes at night. I said, well, some people put a quarter in for that to happen. No, I didn't. I saw the exorcist and they're freaked out. One guy found if he opened the Bible to the gospel of John and laid it on his chest, then after seeing the exorcist, things wouldn't happen. But if it slid off his chest, then awful things would happen and he'd pull it back on. That seemed a little unusual for me, even though I wasn't in warfare. So I didn't suggest an open Bible in your chest, you know, to deal with this. So we did get a lot of calls. I didn't believe in warfare. It was interesting. You know that that was true, that it wasn't a girl, it was a boy and was at the University of St. Louis. The building in which all that took place, I have a good friend who teaches there and some faculty offices are now in that, which was a dorm. And there's creepy stuff still going on in that building all these years later. So, you know, the attitude, but that is a true story that they made movies of and did the movie Hollywood stuff of it, that it really did happen, but it was a priest and a boy. And whatever university it is, you drive right by it. If you're going from, you know, to the arch and all that, you drive right by where the, and that building's right there. He told me which one it was. He says, you know, I don't want to be in that building if they're dark. And they tried praying through it and it doesn't seem to cleanse it. Just seems to be creepy stuff going on in that building. Okay. See, I was supposed to read you a letter. Okay. Before we go on, this goes back to the, I photocopied a letter I get from a 15 year old teenager that was in the first issues. I put this, I was going to tell you to do that. No. Okay. I think that when you counsel teenagers, I trust when they leave you, you've got a friend. You know what I'm saying? That the door's open. They know you care. I'd like to read this letter. And this kid was 15 years old. His sins could have put him in juvenile hall and later on in prison. I would like to thank you for the help you gave me when I came to see you. I would like to say you had more, you've had the best influence on my life that I know of besides Jesus. When I first met you, I was very self-centered and unwilling to repent for my sins that I had committed. So he's coming in and that's his mindset. Now I want to stay where I am, I want to live where I am. But talking to you helped me be able to say, I'm sorry, very sincerely and repentantly. I would like to say thank you once again. And this is one of the young men that's going to be a roommate with me. You never would have believed it. He didn't want to come, didn't want to be there. And when he left, he considers me a friend. Kevin was also in on that counseling thing and he writes to Kevin. I get a lot of letters from teenagers that were drug into my office. But when they left, they found a friend. Not a friend in Jesus, but a friend in a counselor. And you can be a teen's friend. And you don't have to be young. I mean, you really don't. Just care. You may be the only person in their life that ever really cared for them. And they saw the love of Christ in you to them and that you really do care about them. So, you know, if every teenager that leaves becomes your enemy, don't counsel them. Something's wrong. Something's really wrong. Okay, so the music issue. And remember, there are preferences and convictions. And some parents say I have convictions. You shouldn't listen to Marilyn Manson. But I would rather you didn't listen to this or whatever. You know what I'm saying? And I'm not getting into that. That's a family issue. But I've had kids go squeakier than their parents once they did the music fast. You know, they're going, wait, this stuff is really stirring up stuff in me. It's really wrong. A lot of it can stir up sexual desires. You know, some of that music is very sensual and guys are finding out part of their sexual addictions was connected to the music or the music. You know, what came first, the addiction or the music or both together, but they do come. Okay. Now we're gonna get into the sexual issues. I wanna go with men. I have never counseled men. And I don't counsel very many women. The reason I don't counsel women is usually they can get help where they are. And I really am not comfortable in counseling women with sexual issues. I don't think it's right. I don't think it's proper. You know what I mean? For me to get involved in their sexual life. And yet if we don't go there and that's her issue, we missed it. She needs a woman. We don't have a woman counselor. But a good friend of mine, Rachel, sitting right in front of Kevin. Rachel has a degree. She's a lawyer. But she realizes she's limited in being able to counsel. So what Rachel's doing now, she's going to the University of Ohio or somewhere, getting after having her doctorate in laws, she's going to get a master in, was it social? Social and social stuff. So she can be licensed to counsel because she has such a burden. I would love being Rachel. I've known Rachel since she was 15. Now that she's 17, it's wonderful. Anyway, I mean, Rachel's one of these kids that I worked with their family years and years and years ago and we've stayed friends all these years and I've seen Rachel on and off. But Rachel will be wonderful. She's a very pretty girl. Rachel dresses well. You know what I mean? And she even combs her hair and stuff. I mean, girls going to a woman counselor are looking. And they get this, oh, you know, if I follow their advice, will I look like that? You know what I mean? I tell guys, you know, I said, man, you know the reason I don't take my shirt off when I'm counseling you? You'd eat your heart out. You know what I mean? I don't want to believe they're going to look like me because they counsel with me. We have fun in counseling. We do, I mean, we can be in the midst of everything and roar with laughter and get back to stuff. You know, I enjoy what I do. If I didn't enjoy, I'd bail out of it, you know. But I enjoy it. But it's so much better for a woman to work with a woman. It really seems like that in scripture. That it's far better for a girl to work with girls, but the problem is there's not that many out there that are trained to do this. I think that's why care is so wonderful. Elaine Pakala, let me tell you, as sweet as she is, she can go for the throat. You know, I go for the throat. I'm a male chauvinist, you know. You don't really understand. But Elaine is not afraid to get to the issue. You know, let's go to the issue. And she's so sweet, she disarms you. Isn't she a sweet gal? She's just a sweetheart, you know, and gals can do that. You know, you know they love, but they're going right, going where you don't want to go. I'm comfortable to go there, but I need to go there. And that's, a woman is really, really super. But anyway, so I counsel a lot of dads, and that would be thousands of dads over the years. I've never, and most of the dads are in sexual bondages that come to the office, because that really brings a guy out when he is really trapped, and he knows he can't get out of this. I've never counseled a man in sexual bondage that he didn't start having sexual defeat at five or earlier. Never. I'm talking about bondages. We have guys that are being defeated. It's one thing to be defeated. It's different than bondage and defeat. It's different being tempted and being in bondage. I'm talking about guys in bondage. I want this guy to write a testimony, but I'm afraid I can never put it in my prayer letter. This guy came for counseling. He told me a story. I think it's the most tragic story I've ever heard of a childhood in my whole life. His mother is a movie star, a beautiful movie star. His father is a very famous musician, and people love his CDs. His mother dated Clint Eastwood, that kind of guys. His mother's, whatever you call it, who's they have that gets movies and stuff, whatever you call that person, agent, also sold her and made money with all kinds of people and she'd be drunk and all this stuff. When he was five years old, the agent molested him until he had an erection and put him on top of his mother. That's his first introduction to sex at five years of age. He saw his mother entertaining all kinds of men with doors open and all this stuff. He knew everything that men and women did by the time he was six. At seven years of age, the mother decided that since she and the husband were separated, that he needed male figures in his life. Now, that sounds so good, doesn't it? I mean, the mom's kind of saying, well, this guy needs male figures. So she gave him to some homosexuals to raise. So at seven years of age, he's given to homosexuals who were into spiritism. So he saw him doing seances and all this stuff and now he saw what men did because they did it openly before him. As far as he knows, they never accessed him in any way whatsoever. In fact, he has high regards for one of the fellows who was the first guy they ever showed him and that he cared about him, but he never did anything. Now, when he was nine years of age, he goes out on the grass and he sits there and he says, God, do you know the world's crazy? That was his first prayer, letting God know. This is a crazy world. Now, do you think possibly they may have some marriage problems? The guy has done very well financially. You'd never know. You'd never know by looking what was all going on in his life. Of course, we had to go back and he had to deal with those early issues in his life. What was this concept of women? What was this concept of sex? What was all this stuff that he got as a child? Now, he's a mature adult and trying to deal with all of this stuff that he just stuffed. Now, he was not a dissociative, but he did dissociate to a degree. But you know what I'm saying? It's a different trick. I dissociated too. You know my horrible childhood? Not childhood, because I went to Dan. I've told you this before. We're getting all these dissociative people and I go to Dan and I said, I think I'm a dissociative. I must be. I mean, how could you grow up in all that I went through and all the horrible stuff and I tried to kill myself at 15? Obviously, I must be a dissociative. But I didn't dissociate. You know why? The awfulness didn't start until I was in junior high. And so the way I dealt with it was masturbation and fantasy. I just tripped off on my head. That was really good in class. I did the same thing. I'd be in class and I would be out there. You know, just deal with it. I was on vacation. I was playing on the playground. I was, you know, whatever. I just learned to not be there. But the bad part of that, even after I saved, when I got married and my wife wanted to deal with issues I didn't want to deal with, guess what I did? Come on there. I'm preaching a message like Billy Graham or whatever, you know. I was out here, out there. Another way I handled my dad was when things were so bad I'd go to bed and go to sleep because he's so drunk and he's being so awful. If I'm asleep, I won't hear him. So when my wife and I would have discussions as Mr. and Mrs. Pastor, guess who would go to bed and go to sleep? Ta-da! I learned how to deal with stuff. It doesn't work too good. This is not counseling. What I'm telling you is as I learned to deal with issues as a teenager it slopped over into my ministry as a pastor. So you've got to realize that these things in the past can have a real effect on the present and you may have to go there. Well, we do go there. I never deal with the guys in sexual bondage that we don't go to the very first time that he realized he was sexual. And it's always five, four, molested, behind the barn with somebody or that kind of stuff. Okay. I got notes down the side because I added after I did this. I want to go to the story of the girl that called me from Bible school that demons were having intercourse with her at night. I know this girl. A Christian girl. Committed girl. I couldn't believe this. I mean, it was so hard, but I didn't tell her that. I don't believe it. You know, she tried calling me many times and wouldn't because I knew her. If it was Rachel, Rachel would have a hard time calling me because I've known Rachel for so many years she wouldn't want to say that over the phone. You know what I'm saying? It's like how could I say this to somebody I've known for years? But she told me. Now, I want to tell you something very important in counseling. Anybody. It's not what's happening is important. The important thing is why. Right? I could tell I had a crucifix on the wall, you know, and they probably won't do this. But that's not answering the question why. Why? Don't get caught up in the what. I need to hear the what, but I need, like those girls, they tried to kill themselves. You know, well, don't take the pills and hide them or lock them up or what, you know. No, why are these girls so miserable they want to kill themselves? Christian girls on the mission. You know, why is this guy, why is this guy having problems in his marriage? I'll tell you why. We went back to his childhood. His introduction to what he thought was normal living. You know, if that's all you know, that's all you knew. You know what I believe for years that Thanksgiving and Christmas times were? It's where families got together, got drunk, played pinochle, and told dirty stories. I've never been to your house for Thanksgiving. It was only at mine, or my aunt's, or my uncle's. You know what I'm saying? That's all I knew. That's what I thought it was. And you haven't counseled these. I had the same thing. That's all they've known. They don't know anything else. That's the only house they grew up in. Teenagers, that's the only house they've been in. They don't know what goes on in someone else's house when the doors are shut. Okay. So, I asked this girl, I said, oh, this is tragic. She said, Dr. Logan, it's so terrible. But the horrible part of it, it's pleasurable. You're going to find that in bondages. That's the hard part of bondages. It's pleasurable. And I hate it, but it's pleasurable. And I said, could you sort of tell me the history of this? You know, because it's not normal for Christian girls to be attacked by demons. Boys are too. We have teenage boys that are attacked by demons. I had a kid at one of the Bible schools that would call me every time he'd be attacked. He'd be taken to shower, and someone was having anal sex with him, but no one was there. He'd wake up, and he was having intercourse with nobody. This is not, I mean, if you're going to counsel, you will get incubus, succubus stuff, because things are getting worse. Our culture is not getting better, it's getting worse, and you're going to have to deal with this, and you have to be comfortable to hear it, even though it's not something you want to hear. Who are they going to tell if they can't tell you? Well, this is what happened, and it fits into the stuff I loved. Well, I loved Clinton Arnold. I mean, he's my hero. Although I can hardly understand his books, he's my hero. He's pretty smart. And this other character he brought from Talbot was pretty good, too. And a lot of stuff they said, and I'm telling you, fits counseling. You know what they were going through? I'm telling you, a lot of the stuff they were saying. Okay, so I asked this girl, could you go back and give me some history to this? And she went back. When she was a teenager, some friends of her asked her if she had these manifestations of the Holy Spirit. She didn't. Well, don't you want to be spiritual? Don't you want a shortcut to spirituality? Don't you want a shortcut? That's not what they were saying, but here's a shortcut. You get this, and you're going to get all this wonderful spiritual stuff. So she was 14 or so. She went to this church, and they went, whew! And she fell over backwards. And then she had a language she never had before. And what's so hard about falling over backwards? What's so bad about being slain in the Spirit? That's it. You're not in control. There's a euphoric kind of thing. When I open myself up to someone else, and if that person isn't trusted, be careful. I just got a call last week of a 14-year-old boy who committed very lewd acts on a 5-year-old. And this incest stuff is increasing. I can't tell you how many parents that I'm counseling that are there because of incest within the family. It's major proportions. What should you do about counseling incest issues? What you need to do in counseling incest issues is you've got to find the laws of your state. If not, you are in serious trouble and may find yourself in legal trouble. What is mandatory requiring of your state? It's not national. It is state level. I can counsel molestations from Nebraska if it's beyond North Sioux or South Sioux, whatever they call that over there, because it's right across the river. If I counsel anyone in Iowa that was molested or molesting, I am required by law to report it. But if I am counseling people outside of the state and it took place outside of the state, then you don't report it to the state because it was not a state issue. It happened out of the state. That's one of the most important things when you get into this stuff because you're going to be amazed at the increase of this stuff that's going on, this sexual stuff that's going on. The incest stuff is really big. What about perversion? We deal with tons of this stuff. And I don't understand this, but I can tell you this, but I do not understand that often a person's first sexual experience can put him down the road to seek that experience again, especially if it was pleasurable. Now, there may be iniquities. There may be generational stuff. But I'll tell you another thing I can't understand is where two people do the same thing together and one goes to a perverted lifestyle and the other person does not. Is that iniquities? Is that generational stuff? I don't know. But as you work with these people to find out where did it start, what happened, we're out. Did anybody take more than one? Well, get a hold of Jim Gaskell and ask him because we can run that off again. I'm sorry. I think they had 50 in there. We're out. Totally out. Should they give their name and address? Yeah, he'll talk to Jim about it. Yeah, I'm going to keep going. We'll see what's going to happen. Okay. Pornography on the Internet is trapping young men, probably girls too to some degree, but it is increasing. And the problem is it's not just nudes. It's worse than that. And when I was with Colonel, one of the fellows came to me. He maybe was 13, 14, and he said, I've got to talk to you in private. And he began to open up his horrible, evil life, twisted. And I don't want to go into them. But in all the men that I have counseled that are twisted, only one of them did this weird thing. Only one. It's not something you'd figure out yourself. And this kid said, Do you ever counsel anybody who does this? And I said, How in the world did you know to do that? It's so weird. It's so gross. It is so yucky. He said, Oh, I get up at night, I go to the web, and I look at how men do stuff to get an erotic feeling. And then I try it. But in order to do this, he had to steal stuff. And it wasn't cross-dressing. I get cross-dressers and transvestites, and cross-dressers and transvestites are not the same. And if you put them together, you're in trouble, and they're going to be upset. There's a whole difference between those two issues. And we get that, too. If there's any evil you can do, it's been through our office. I tell kids, I'll say, If you're doing something evil that I've never heard of, I'll tell you. You're not going to shock me. I'm here to help you. Don't hide it, because the thing you hide, you're going to walk out with. But going, and what do you do? Move. What do parents do? You want to be on the Internet? Put the computer where everybody can see. That's at least one step. You know? Where it's not, you know, down in the basement somewhere. See, it'd be like having a stack of pornography in the garage and tell your son, don't go there and look. It's the same thing. It's going to cry out to them. And they can pop up without wanting them to pop up. You know Mike. Mike runs the thing here in the black. Mikey. I go in the back and say, Mike, I've got to make some airline arrangements. Would you go ahead and do this? And he goes, and up pops a girl that couldn't afford a top of any sort. I said, Mikey, is this what you do back here when none of us are around? He goes, oh, Logan, Logan, we've got to get her off. He kept pushing delete and her sisters kept popping up. I mean, he couldn't get her off and he just turned the thing off. You know, he was so embarrassed because we were going to get airline tickets and got this girl. What about your son that all of a sudden gets this one of these attractive half-naked ladies popping up on the screen? Oh, my son wouldn't look. Oh, really? Let's take him to a doctor. You know, how are, I'm sorry, but how are guys stirred up? By sight. I don't think the enemy doesn't know that. And it's very hard for a kid, once he's seen something like that, how does he wash it out of his head? And knows it's right there and he just pushes the more button and he gets, not just seeing naked people, he gets to see how they do things and then he, you know, education is to practice it. So he's being educated to practice this stuff. I have to get back to this girl. Anyway, I asked this girl, when did this start? Well, she got the Holy Spirit at 14. And the Holy Spirit loved her so much he began to stimulate her sexually. And she thought, this is so wonderful that she had this wonderful experience in church and she got the Holy Spirit through being slain in the spirit and now she has an aesthetic language and at night the Holy Spirit comes into her room and gives her these wonderful sexual feelings. Didn't have a whole lot to put together, didn't have much of a Christian background or whatever, you know, just seeking a deeper experience. I'm sure that they haven't used that in their thing of going for more power, more spirituality kind of stuff. And then she realized this can't be the Holy Spirit and she cried out to God and she was totally delivered for a number of years. I said, well then, why did it come back at college now? I mean, that's your teenage past, so it's making sense. This is what happened when she was a teenager, she didn't stop it, she was all confused about this and thought it was God giving her the pleasure and all this kind of stuff. Well, she's a very committed girl. Believe me, when I say she's committed, I know her, she's real committed, she has a burden for the lost, has high principles, high moral standards, she's not dating everybody, she's an extremely attractive girl, Jim Gaskell knows her, very attractive girl. And what happened is, a guy in the dorm, she's in mixed dorms, a guy in the dorm, she met in the hallway and he smiled at her, very good looking, his muscles were all in the right place, and he has hair everywhere on his head too, and shook her hand and said he was so glad to meet her. And he's lost and unsafe and she began to fantasize about him, about dating him, wouldn't it be wonderful if he would like her and all this stuff, and it started again. But see, what had started is she hadn't been there before, I doubt it, but because she had been there and had done this, she knew that missionary dating is not in scripture. You know, don't be unthinkably open to believers and getting involved in that kind of stuff. Not that she couldn't witness to him, but she wanted him for a boyfriend. In fact, she was thinking about wouldn't he be a wonderful husband. And she said, I'm thinking about him all the time. I don't think the enemy was helping her. Bringing up, bringing up, and then it started. So she confessed that. That it was wrong to fantasize about this unsafe fellow, and not, you know, her attachment, I mean she was literally ending into a soul tie with a guy that showed no interest in her except being nice. And it was just a horrible connection and we broke that over the phone and all of that. And it stopped when she confessed her involvement with this guy mentally, and all this stuff. And she's doing okay now. You know, I'll tell you another thing. The temptations, if you're tempted to do something you've never done, the power of that temptation is not as strong if it's something you have done in your past. And you already know the pleasures of it. You understand what I'm saying? I said, you're never tempted with the same kind of power to do something you've never done. But if you have a lot of past failures in your past, the temptation to go back there is very strong because you already know the power of it and the pleasure of it. I was going to tell you about the time I took all the marijuana in my office I'm not going to tell you about it. But don't do it. You know, I'm so much one to help kids. He brought all this marijuana to smoke because he didn't know if I could help him. I know his parents are major Christian leaders. If I said the parents' name, he'd know this kid. He had one of these bags from the grocery store full of marijuana. I don't see how he could smoke the whole thing if he smoked all day and night. But he thought, well, that's what he could do when he wasn't counseling with me, was smoke this marijuana. So I kept it for him. And someone in the law enforcement said, you mean you put it in your drawer in your office? Yeah, I want to help the kid. He said, oh, don't. Don't take the marijuana. You keep it. You throw it away. I did have him get rid of it. But anyway, don't take the marijuana. Okay. How do you deal with pre-teens in sexual bondage? Parents brought a kid to me that I knew that he didn't know that I knew that they found pictures of a 12-year-old boy at just turned 12 pictures under his mattress of jockey short ads of men. That's not what you want to find as a father. You know, a Christian family. They were sick. They called me on the phone and said, what should we do? I said, don't do anything. You're going to come here. Don't confront him. Just leave it. So the kid comes in to see me. He's 12 years old. And the family wasn't totally true because the kid has heard me speak. They said, we're going there for a family checkup. A family tune-up. And Logan's going to tune up all the kids. So I didn't start with him. I started with his sister. I got him in there. And what do you say to a kid that just turned 12 and say, you know, do you masturbate? Oh, yeah. I'm going to tell you all about it. No way he's not going to talk to me. You know, do you have pictures of men that you're hiding? No way is he going to tell me. Let me tell you, 12-year-olds are worse than 14-year-olds. I mean, there's a thing, you know, just walks in, sits down. I mean, I like to kind of go for the throat, but not that quick. So I said, Lord, what do I do? You know, I've got to see all the rest of the family, and this kid is in a mess. What do I do? You've got to do something. I'll tell you, the Lord will come to your rescue. Cry out to him. The kid crossed his legs and his pant leg went up, and you could part the hair on his legs at 12 years of age with a comb. I mean, I've seen less hair on a monkey. I said, wow, look at that. He says, what? I said, man, look at the hair on your legs. When did you get 12? Well, I was 12 two months ago. I said, what? He says, you want to see the other one? So he pulls his pant legs up, and you see this, you can hardly see skin with all those long black hair. I said, man, you've gone through puberty. He said, Logan, I'm a man all over. And I said, that's too bad. Say that. I said, because you have men's desires in a boy's body. He said, Logan, you got to help me. I masturbate, I look at men's pictures, and I don't even know why. You've got to help me. And I hugged him, and he wept on my shoulder. 12 year old kid. Just opened up right away. But God gave me the can opener. You know what I'm saying? I had to cry out to God, I didn't know what to do. See, I said, I don't have all the answers. I don't even know all the questions. I haven't counseled in this long enough yet. So, we talked, we went through all this stuff, we did a lot of stuff on how to take background, all that. I said, but you need to tell your dad. He said, I can't tell my dad I do that stuff. My dad would have never masturbated. I said, I bet he did. No, I don't think so. He said, remember, this is confidential. I said, yeah. I said, no, you gotta tell him. I said, just pray about it. And tell me tomorrow what the Lord tells you. He comes in, and he looks like a hound dog. I said, what happened? He said, I prayed. That's what the Lord tells you. He said, tell my dad. I said, well good, he can pray with you. I mean, he's there. I wish you could move in with me, but if I had all these kids moving in with me, my wife would move out. You know what I mean? We can't have all these teens at our house. You know, I love you. You can always call me. I care about you. So he calls his dad in, and I don't know what's gonna happen here. He calls his dad in, and he sits on the couch, and he puts his arm around his dad, and this boy was adopted. He put his arms around his dad, and this was a number of years ago. He looks at his dad. He said, dad, I have something very important to tell you. Son, I've got pictures on it. He said, dad, do you ever masturbate? I'm going, uh-oh, am I gonna kick a dad? What am I gonna do here? And the dad said, yes I did. And he said, oh dad, I'm so glad. I'm a mess. I need your help. I need your prayers. Isn't that beautiful? You know, it's so beautiful. You got a dad that, oh, I don't know what you're talking about, kid. Would you explain it to me? What's the word mean? You know, I mean, it's, I'll tell you, God is such an orchestrator. If you could see the moving of the spirit, it is so, I mean, why am I doing this at 74 years of age? I could be on a rocking, on a porch, rocking. You know, why am I doing this? Because I love to see what God does in the lives of these people and these kids. It's addictive. I'm addicted to God. I'm addicted to teenagers that are in a mess. I love it. Okay. Let's go down in the warfare issues because we're running out of time. One of the things that I don't think is on here is breaking salt ice, but you have material in breaking salt ice. I think we put it in your notebook and it's also in here. I wanted to be sure that you got it and there's nothing in there now. But breaking salt ice, that is unbelievable. I just got a call from a family whose daughter is sneaking off with a guy that beats her up. Explain that one. Why does a teenage girl go out with a guy that beats her up, puts her down, says all this stuff? It's a salt ice. And you have material on how to break a salt ice. And parents need to pray when they see it happening because you tell your daughter, don't like this kid. Oh, that works. Okay. Oh, yeah. Okay, Mom, I won't like him anymore. Okay, I won't like her anymore. You got to start praying that God would sever that emotional connection there that you know is going to take one of them down the wrong path. You know, God does not warn girls about lewd men in the Bible. He warns girls about sloths. You know how a sloth gets in your daughter's life? A sloth You don't know how much you're helping me. You know, this girl's so polite. She's mothering this jerk at 14. You know, he's sucking everything out of her. And then he wants her to prove her love and all that. But God does warn fellows about lewd girls. I wasn't as concerned about my daughter's getting involved with some jerk as I was with some floozy to get involved with my son because he's a 100% boy. You know, and these girls would call the house and want to date him. And I said, Rich, why are these girls calling the house? Dad, any girl that calls the house and wants to date you can go out with her and do whatever you want to. I said, I didn't know that. But he couldn't date and he didn't want to anyway in high school. He waited and got a beautiful woman, wonderful wife that was pure because he had made a commitment he would not marry a girl that had been immoral. If he kept himself pure, God had somebody out there for him. And God brought him into his life when he was a youth pastor downtown. Okay, I call it the You're going to see more and more this thing of Harry Potter. Really, listen, Schnaben, those guys right here are talking about all the practice. One out of ten kids that sees Harry Potter is going to try something. And how many million kids have been to the movies? So, you know, that. Go into Walmart. They have books on witchcraft for little kids and witchcraft for teenage kids in their books thing. I looked. How to do it? How to do this kind of stuff? I mean, Walmart is selling it in their book center. So, you're going to get a lot more of this stuff going on, and especially as the movies and TV take on more what? You know, I was a vampire for Jesus and all these other things. All these programs out there. And kids are watching it. And usually, I don't know what Buffy the vampire was like, but probably she was a nice vampire. I don't know. Maybe only suck blood out of bad boys. I don't know what she did. But you know what I mean? You're going to have all this. Kids are seeing this all the time. It is going to affect them. You know, if you had said a cult to me when I was going to high school in Hollywood, California, I wouldn't know what you're talking about. In fact, if you said pornography when I was going to high school in Hollywood, California, I wouldn't know what you're talking about. I never saw pornography in high school. Now, hardly any kid that I see, no matter whose kid they are, has seen pornography. It's been thrown on the road. They picked it up here. They've seen all this stuff already. Another one, and this is amazing, how many Christian kids pray to Satan? If God doesn't answer their prayers, if that girl doesn't like him, if this doesn't happen, they pray to Satan. Once a kid prays to Satan, they better break that, because usually after that, if Satan answers their prayer, I tell the kid, there ain't no free lunch. You ask Satan to do something for you as a Christian, and it happens, you are going to pay a price, and you'll be shocked at how many good Christian kids from good Christian families have prayed to Satan as a teenager. That's gotta be broken. I was amazed. Someone told me, I never did that, start asking. I started asking, and I thought, I'm I can't believe the kids would have done that. Spirit guides. One of the ways to find out if someone has spirit guides, is to have parents ask their kids this. They call on the phone crying. I say, ask them about little kids. Do you ever hear things no one What do you hear? Oh, they tell me to go to the balcony and jump off. The mom's crying. She didn't know someone was hearing stuff. I shared this with a doctor who was working with. They lived in a creepy house. The mom said, you've got to ask our kids. I know they're probably seeing things. You've got to ask them. They kept coming every year. His wife pressured him to do this. He said, you boys ever hear things no one else hears. Do you hear things no one else hears? Yes. Oh, no. Dad, come out in the backyard. You hear the voices, too. Down the street was a car dealer. Rob, Rob, go to bed number one. See, dad? Praise God. I wish it was all some car dealership down the road. But it isn't. And you'd be amazed of kids that are hearing things and seeing things no one else sees. They don't want to talk about it or they were told not to talk about it. Don't tell anybody. I'm giving you special advice. is usually younger kids. We get a lot of calls where kids are seeing eyeballs. I have a funny one happening in Singapore. Curses. I was going to tell you about a Mayan boy that was under curses. I think it's a video I did for Bible translators. An uncle was cursed and they broke the curse and the uncle came to the boy. He went 12 hours on a bus to get down to the translation center. Negative words visualize achievement. The greatest thing, the greatest tool was my dad's negative words. You'll never mount anything. I operated under that curse for years. I believed what he said. I wasn't going to let him down. I negative energy toward an object or a person being cursed. That's right out of the two-volume thing of Hebrew words. I can't think of their names. I don't know what they were. I said, what are those? I have all this Hebrew and Greek help on the floor by my chair when I do devotions. And I pull the books up. I got to look up words. I just do. Just like put on in the armor. You know, I wasn't sure what that meant. No, I knew what it meant. For some reason, I had looked it up. You know what it means? To put on like clothes. So I thank my counselees for not coming naked any day, you know, to the office. But what's he saying? As I put on clothes every day, what should I do? Put on the armor. That's what he's saying. Look in the Greek, you know. You don't trust me, trust Zodiates or somebody. Okay. Religious spirits. They are the most difficult of all spirits to deal with. People that have religious spirits. It is terrible. What about religious spirits? Here is a key. I cried out to God. Whenever we get a new counselor, he gets a run of people with religious spirits. They only tell them to do religious things. Never negative. Never sin. Just religious stuff. How can you tell someone who has a religious spirit? First of all, if it's a woman, she is sickening sweet. Like too much sugar in my coffee, you want to spew it out. You ever met someone? Oh, it's so good to see you. Lady, let go of my hand, you know. There is just something about them that doesn't ring true, and they are just so sweet. Legalistic, critical, judgmental religious spirits. And they are critical about, you know, what the pastor said or didn't say or didn't smile or whatever. It's horrible. That's like a knife in my heart. How do you deal with religious spirits? And this has been the key. I didn't know what to do. We did all the counseling stuff, and one day I said, God, you got to help me. I mean, you tell somebody that reading the Bible is wrong? I thought you were a biblical counselor. I mean, aren't you a reverend as well as doctor? I can't believe that you would say not to pray and not to do this. How do you deal with this? Very simple. God brought two passages of scripture to me, and it clicked. Psalm 23. The Lord is my shepherd. What does he do to me? He leads me twice. John 10. What does a good shepherd do? He leads me. What are people under religious spirits? They are driven people. They have to read so long of the Bible. We have guys that have to go back and read one more chapter because they didn't get it all done before they came. They have to. Or they have to pray 10 more minutes because they didn't finish the full hour that they're supposed to pray. They have to. And it's all religious activity. Remember Wanda? The gal in my book, the first missionary, the first person that ever had demons, and she had them really well, so I got my attention. Wanda had religious spirits. If the enemy had told her one thing evil, she would have known. She went to Fred Dickinson. They put her in a mental hospital. I was in Toronto speaking, and I'm going, Oh, no, one of our missionaries is in a mental hospital in a straightjacket. But she had religious spirits, and they were running her life. Things to remember. One, demons can use truth to defeat us. Second is the self-concept of the kids you're dealing with. You cannot live beyond the concept of yourself. When I was vice president of CEF, sitting in my office, the Lord used four or five of us to start a Bible college, and Seattle is still going today. I taught another wonderful Bible college. They asked me to come and teach. I'm vice president of the largest mission in the world. I'm on board submissions. I've traveled all over. I was sitting in my office, and it came to me that I wasn't dumb, and that wasn't that many years ago. I didn't hear voices. I didn't have to. Why? My dad convinced me growing up that I was dumb. I wanted to run up and down the hallway and say, Guess what? You know, the people in the building, we have 132 people on staff there that are there all the time, plus all two. Hey, guess what? I'm not dumb. They said, We never thought you were. But you know what I'm saying? It's like, Wow. But that was the last residue of a negative childhood. I mean negative. And I had to work with my dad mowing lawns in Beverly Hills. Team's perspective. Remember, it's not what's happening is the real issue. It's what is happening. That is the real problem. Start with why or what's going on there, not just what's happening right now. Get to the root of that thing. See, how I perceive a teenager, how I perceive my situation is how I will react to it or respond to it. My parents are my enemies. How am I going to respond to them? That make sense? See, I've got to realize this is where the kid is, and I've got to get in there or I'm not really going to help him. I could take him to the sheep dip, but he walks out. I never got to some of the core stuff. And I had my sheep dipping, and I did a lot of sheep dipping. And I'm sorry I did some sheep dipping. You know, I had to get him through next. Okay. The most difficult prayer a teenager would make is two things. James 4. They do just before we pray against demonic spirits, and that is submitting to God. What does it mean to submit to God? It's for a teen to open up every area of his life to the Holy Spirit and asking the Spirit of God to fill every area of his life. Where it should be said, any area of your life, you don't want God to control, Satan will. They're putting a bullseye on the test. You can have everything but my dating life. God, you can have everything but my music. And I have them identify every area of their life. We're almost done, Dan. They paid extra. And then the last one, and this is what's said. Remember the fellow I told you that was hearing all this truth stuff and everything? It was 1 Thessalonians 5.18. In everything, give thanks, for this is the will of God and Christ Jesus concerning you. And he did that because I told him to. Nothing happened. Then he fell on his knees and cried out from his heart to God, and he gave thanks. Giving thanks to God is an act of my will, then an obedience to God. Feeling thankful is an act of my emotions that comes when I realize God's actions. When I do this, I'm acknowledging the sovereignty of God in my life. And so he fell on his knees and he cried out to God and he thanked Him for all this awful stuff that happened. And you know what happened when he got through that prayer? Something dark left him in that room. And I think we talked the very next day on the phone and I knew he was free. He didn't even have to tell me. I could tell when he talked to me. His parents, immediately when they saw him, realized this thing had gone on for five weeks or six weeks, was gone. Whatever it was, they had no clue what it was. It was obvious he was free because the joy of the Lord and the peace of God began to fill his heart and mind again. Father, there's a lot more stuff we could say and do and I just pray that some of this stuff may help those that are working with kids. The father I know more than my stuff, kids I know, teenage boys especially, need some male that would love them just as they are. Know everything about them and like them anyway. And Father, I pray that you would give us your love for people. And Lord, I know some of our counselees and some of these teenagers that walk in, I don't know where they could put another body piercing. And Father, you love them. Let me look beyond tattoos, body piercing, navels or whatever, strange hairdos. Father, help me to see the heart of the kid and that you love them. And all this weird stuff they're doing is just a front of stuff. Lord, let me look at their heart as you look at their heart and let me love them and let them know that I love them and I care. And Father, if nothing else, I would never want someone to leave our offices even if they're not helped. But the one thing they know is that we really care about them. And the door swings both ways. And they can come back at any time. And that we do care. So Father, thank you that you loved me when I was yet a sinner. And you chose me before the foundation of the world. And God, I don't understand that at all. When I get to heaven, I'm going to sit down with some Presbyterians and Baptists and you explain it to the both of us. Because I don't get it. I wonder sometimes you love me before the foundation of the world because you never would have loved me afterwards. I don't know. You chose me. I wouldn't have chose me. And so Father, I pray that we would deal with every person that you send to us as your child. And we need your anointing. We need your guidance to do in their life and to cooperate with you with what you're doing in their life. And give us that sensitivity. We ask this in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for His glory, not our success. In Jesus' name, Amen.