Romans 8:18-39 Part B

that the spirit of God, he's groaning within, God interprets according to his mind. Yes. Is this limited to when we pray or is this a continual action by the spirit of God? Now when a child is sick and it's crying it can't tell you what's wrong with it, right mothers? But mothers talking to the doctor, there's a discussion going on, maybe going on quite a bit, and the proper antidote is applied.

That's not a very good picture but just an idea that we are unable to express and we don't even know to express. There's a thing there that we really don't understand that the spirit of God does and that's part of his work. I see that like we were always afraid of going too far into chapter eight because we wouldn't tramp on Bill's toes but I'm loving to go back to chapter seven here for whatever reason.

I still think we're looking at this man saying, oh wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? There is a moral deliverance available to us. It is partial but it is approaching the complete. But there's a physical deliverance that we do not have right now but there's that groaning still within us, oh wretched man that I am.

And I take it that the spirit of God is working not only to produce that, produce the awareness of that, but to move us onward in our hope to that. It's not the expression of our lips, as you've said, but it's the heart crying out. It's something right from the heart.

Words expressing itself for the sorrow, I think, it's in our heart because of the conditions that are around us. I've actually been thinking about this. I suppose there's a distinction but being a blessed are they that mourn does not go to the funeral home.

Blessed are they that share God's mourning for sin in the world. You took us to Gethsemane but if you just back up to Lazarus' grave and the Lord Jesus troubled in his spirit. Why? It's a mourning of the tragedy of what sin has brought and the more we advance in our knowledge of God and of the word of God and of purpose of God, we ought to be more mournful.

I don't mean in the terms of our disposition, but more sharing the mourning of God. We see problems in the assembly in Corinth and they should have been mourning of what God had lost. So there is a sense in which I think we can link together the groaning and the mourning, sharing God's thoughts.

That's right and yet we don't want to miss this hope. That's exactly right. That is here because I think this groaning is in the anticipation of what we are going to be.

That's good and like blessed are they that mourn. Why? Because there's an outcome for that. So yeah, I think we're bringing two things together that might not totally belong together but there's a parallel thought.

So then we have verse 27 and he that searches the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the spirit because he maketh intercession or petition for the saints according to the will of God. So he that searches the hearts, would that be God himself? He searches, and again it's right the innermost person we're talking about and he knows what the is the mind of the spirit. According to God.

That's bringing before us the intimacy there between divine persons, isn't it? Yes and it shows he's acquainted with what our needs are, our desires though they're unuttered. God knows we don't have to say them. He knows the expression of the heart.

So he is actually bringing us by this means. He is bringing us into a greater fellowship with the will of God, with what is in keeping with God's character and will. So isn't that a wonderful picture of the spirit of God? That the spirit of God is taking our things to heaven and in first Corinthians 2 the spirit of God is bringing the things of heaven to us.

We understand just for those who are not familiar with first Corinthians 2, it's the spirit of God that knows the things of God that reveals them to us. So here there's from heaven to us and there's from us to heaven all by the self-same spirit. A perfect connection.

You can't miss out, can you? No. So this should be true of each one of us, shouldn't it? I mean we don't realize all what's going on, do we? But sometimes you can just feel even though you express it, oh God, you just don't know what the need is. But we know that he makes intercession for us according to God, according to God's will.

For all things, now we know, verse 28, that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose. So all things would be everything God works. And I don't like to narrow things down, but I think in the context you'd have to join it with what follows.

But yet we don't like to narrow it down because we do know that all things God has everything in his hand for us no matter what it is. And we need to learn to accept things from God. But please be very careful how you use this scripture.

If someone loses a loved one, it's not really nice to say, all things work together for good to them that love the Lord. Don't say anything, just give them a hug. That's about the best we can do.

But we do know that God is behind everything for those that love him. In other words, he's going to bring about everything that's good for us. God is the one who's acting here.

It's not the all things that are working. It's God himself that's working all things to the end of ultimate blessing for all that love God, that are called according to his purpose. I think you have to be able to embrace everything that's mentioned at the end of the chapter within that.

And it's not that we try to pretend that all things are good, but that the God who is good is at work and has sovereign purposes of eternal blessing for us. And so everything that he permits to touch our lives is bounded by that eternal purpose and must in some way finally be turned to our eternal good. Joseph says, ye meant it to me for evil, but God meant it to me for good.

And the psalmist writes in Psalm 105, he sent a man before them, even Joseph, whose feet they hurt with fetters. And Mr. Newbery says, the iron entered into his soul. And Joseph says, God meant it to me for good.

He was looking at the totality of divine purpose, not the present circumstances. And in the purposes of God, this was good. Isn't the good of verse 28 linked with the expression in verse 29, to be conformed to the image of his son.

Amen. That's the good. Mm hmm.

Now, but let's take this God who can take Adam's fall and the impact on creation and turn that awesome tragedy into ultimate good, who can take a crucifixion, the darkest expression of man's depravity, and turn that crucifixion into the center of ultimate eternal blessing, and who can take the circumstances of life. And actually, none of them can bar his eternal purpose for you and for me from being granted. If he can take it in the macro, shall we say, but he's not too concerned about the details.

So every detail comes under the, what's the word, the perusal, there's a better word than that, of God. And that's not to say that this, the death of your loved one is suddenly going to appear to be for good. But I know that God can take all that is ill, and it is his character to work ultimate good through that.

It's because he is good, therefore he does good. And so far as reference to us is concerned, it's to conform us to the image of his son. We've got to get to that as we move along.

Which is the ultimate goodness. Don't you have another translation? Yes, I do. And I wanted to mention it.

I don't think this is as clearly translated in our King James as it could be. And I keep looking at ESV, and I keep looking at Darby, and I don't find them much better. But the original can be translated, God worketh all things together unto goodness, to the ones loving him, to the called ones according to his purpose.

It isn't a random working together of all things. You said it, the actor is God. And he's got the whole picture, and he's got the whole purpose.

And his purpose is what's ultimately going to be realized, you and I are going to be conformed to the image of his son. That's down the chapter. No, I was just going to say that that is what we're working toward ultimately, sorry.

He is the God of the microscopic, and he is the God of the galactic. Galactic, that's a nice word, I like that. Sounded like a car or something to me.

So no matter how dark the scene, and I lost my dad at 16, you'll understand, it's an accident, how black it is. But there's a glory ahead in the purposes of God, which will be fulfilled. So no matter how dark the circumstances of life, the world is in, and everybody's looking down on what's happening to the world.

There's a glory ahead, because it will be for good. And God will ensure that. Yeah, even in a practical way.

If something happens in your life of a lot once taken, there's some good that comes out of it. But it's just that you don't say that to somebody when they've recently been bereaved. What comes out of it, it should draw us closer to the Lord.

And then we would be more conformed. But here, I think it's going to keep it in the context. It's linked with what follows.

God's working all purposes and predestination and so on. What is the reason for, or what's the meaning of the description to them that love God? Well, that would be all of His people, wouldn't it? We love Him. We all love Him.

But why are we described that way? Why not just say those that are saved? Well, because if we love Him, we'll accept the things from Him. Are the consequences of disobedience in the life of a believer going to work out for its good? The government of God upon Him. Or do we just, is it loving God because of what's coming in? See, I'll tell you my strange mind on it then.

I take this to be the ultimate expression of those that are made righteous. The love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Spirit of God is actually the fulfillment of the ultimate. The first commandment is thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, with all thy mind, and with all thy strength.

We cannot do that. We couldn't do it in unconverted days. But we have been made God lovers in redemption by the Spirit of God within us.

And sorry, I take this to be that the righteous requirements of the law might be fulfilled in them that walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. I didn't mean to go back and contradict, but I take it that we are described as those that love God as the ultimate description, those that have been made right with God. Yeah, I think the end of the chapter really brings us to that of an inseparable love, and it's reciprocal.

William, you've twice indicated that we must not take this out of the context that follows. I think we want to keep it in the context that goes before, too. Now, I meant the whole context.

I didn't mean just what follows. Then we should follow, shouldn't we? Yeah. So, for whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

And we notice that it doesn't say for what He did foreknow. It wasn't because of something that we were going to do, but it's whom. He had individuals in His mind, and then we have brought into the foreknowledge of God, it's something He knew beforehand.

Some have thought that because God knew how we were going to turn out, He would choose us, but that's not in the Word of God. And predestination, what's the purpose of predestination? To be conformed to the image of His Son. So, the Spirit of God, He's working in us now, isn't He, to make us a transcript of the Lord.

But it's going to be true, we will be conformed to the image of His Son in the future. It hath not yet been manifested what we shall be, but we know that when He is manifested, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. I think that is what we have here.

So, this is linked with the manifestation of the sons of God. Now, we will have been made like Christ at the rapture, but the manifestation of that will be at the Lord's return to earth. But we're all looking at this same great purpose that God had, that we would be glorified.

In fact, I'm moving ahead a little bit, but you have this chain, foreknowledge, predestinated, called, justified, glorified. Well, when you get to the glorified and you realize that hasn't taken place yet, but it's as good as secure. I'm not anticipating, I'm trying to get back to the first two.

This is not a time sequence, it works out in time, but it's an eternal purpose that's stated and finalized. So, the foreknowledge does not precede the predestination in terms of God's purpose. It's all one settled purpose.

And I'm sorry, I'm going to just stick my neck out and you can all saw me off with what I've done. God did not know what I was going to do and predestinate me to be conformed and able to His Son. Neither did He predestinate me and then that determined what I would do, because the two of them cannot one precede the other.

You can't have omniscience. If God knows His next thought, then there is no sequence in God's thoughts. It is all settled at once, eternally.

Never was settled, it was eternally settled. But the purpose, the fact is this, His knowledge of what I would do and His decree of purpose are independent one of another. They do not determine one another, because there is no sequence of God's thinking.

There's a logic, but not a sequence. There's a man named Norris. I don't remember his first name.

It wasn't our John Norris, he was an Englishman. He said, God was so well pleased with His Son, He's going to populate heaven with millions like Him. So, the purpose of our being there is Christ.

Not so much what I'm going to have, but what He's going to have in us. You were talking about worship. Worship is not my blessings.

Worship is Him who has blessed me. So, this settled purpose that's all encompassed here in these words, is that the cause that produces the effect of me personally? The cause of what that produces what effect? We're justified by faith. The fact that I was included in, I'm telling you that I was included in whom He did foreknow, and whom He did predestinate, and He called, and on October 7, 1973, He justified upon exercising faith in Christ, and I've yet to be glorified.

It's because of that settled purpose in eternity, that's what brought that into being? You were justified because you were predestinated? Is that what you're asking? I'm asking, was the cause, whenever God settled that in eternity, did that cause me to be brought into the blessing of being justified? The answer is yes and no. Thank you. Yes, but it was not the determinate counsel.

You were responsible, and you had a personal choice. Therefore, that's my whole point in saying that the purpose of God for you and your responsibility are not one dependent on the other. God didn't make His purpose dependent on what He knew you would do, nor did His purpose for you determine what you would do.

You have a choice. So whether God's purpose is worked out or not depends on me? You're trying to bring God down to our level of understanding, and that's not the case. You're talking about two different truths.

You can't do it. Logically, you can't get those two together. No, that's the problem, because we're limited.

So let's just admit, we can't understand the greatness of God, but we understand that we have a responsibility, and we understand that God has a purpose. They both exist, and neither one overrules the other. I have a question for you.

It's good to go to chapter 11, I think. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, His ways past finding out! Who hath known the mind of the Lord? For who hath been His counselor? So on. Things we don't understand fully.

But we do know that we are responsible beings. I don't like to say free will, but I'd rather have responsible. Free will has been bantered around this weekend.

I wondered if somebody was going to object. Well, if we're free will, saved by free will, we're good will not to be saved then, I think. That's what I had in my mind, but we're responsible beings.

David, I have a question for you. You've spoken of God's omniscience. Would you take the definition of that? God is all-knowing? Yes.

Okay, now, I had a line from a correspondent years ago, and I accepted it. And I've been thinking about it ever since. We have come up with the word for knowledge.

God knows ahead of time. But he said God is all-knowing. For us, knowing ahead of time, we have come up with that definition.

But it's God's all-knowingness. Well, God works within time. I mean, we talk about God being above time.

But actually, I'm sorry, in the beginning marks time. And from that moment onward, God moves through time with men. At due time, he sent his son.

So, yes, God is very conscious of time. He's not limited by time. One day with the Lord is a thousand years.

He can accomplish his purpose in a day or a thousand years with no problem to God. So, there is a sense in which God recognizes what is future. But in terms of divine purpose, it's accomplished.

The New Testament always uses the word for knowledge or foreknown in relation to persons. It's identifying persons. It's not just merely knowing beforehand.

It's persons involved every time. That's whom he did foreknow. In a sense, foreknowledge, it's relational to know someone with approval.

The contrast was I never knew you. I was never in a proving relationship with you. But I found it helpful a couple of things.

And this is just whether to muddy the waters or clear it up, I don't know. But I remember reading something a long time ago that the way it was put is that we have to recognize that God's sovereignty is a different concept or attribute than his nature. In the sense of those who exalt the sovereignty of God to the point where they say that because God is sovereign, he must decree everything that takes place or couldn't take place.

They're actually confining his nature, subjecting it to his sovereignty. In other words, they would say even if God had wanted to have mercy on someone today, he couldn't because he already decreed that they're going to go to hell in eternity. Well, that's false.

The truth is that he has subjected his sovereignty to manifest his nature. He will assert his sovereignty. He will bring evil to an end.

He will reign in absolute supremacy. That's the last thing he does. And so that's one thing that helps to understand.

The other is recognizing the eternal character of God. To me, and again, I know this to do with foreknowledge and God looking ahead and seeing how we would respond and so on. If we take out the time element and say that in all of this which God has brought forth, he sees our repentance.

He sees our faith and the fact that that honors what he is. And that enables him to move in blessing because it's in harmony with what he is and his principles. And so I take it that his foreknowledge is an essential part of this whole picture.

It's not just that it's dependent upon it, but it's in harmony with it. And so his sovereignty or his electing does not exclude his grace or limit his grace. It's in harmony with his grace.

I guess Paul anticipated your statements and wrote chapter 9. Bruce, we've talked about this before and my personal response to what you said was this as well. I think it's important for us to understand that God's full character, his full character is expressed in every act. He never acts in a way that expresses this part of his character, but not that.

Every act is the full expression. We may not be able to apprehend that, but it's true. Every aspect reveals all and is in harmony with all that God is.

Now, Brother Bill, when speaking about election was mentioned, the subject here is predestination. Could you tell us something of the two, just briefly? Yeah, well, I thought that predestination had got to do with the purposes of God. Amen.

Is that what you would say? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Now we have election.

Pardon me? Now we have election. What's the difference? How is election differing from predestination? Well, it's election of persons. Predestination is purposes.

You have something you want to add to that? It's a simple difference, but we use those words. They're used in the Bible, and I think there's young people here. And we don't show what the distinction is.

And there is a nuance there that's very important. Divine purpose and divine pleasure. It's God's pleasure to choose me.

It's God's purpose that I be like Christ. Now, we should just move on a little bit. God, here we see, conformed to the image of His Son.

And it's as good as done. And you can see this even in Old Testament saints. They embraced things that they couldn't see as though they were.

And now, when we come to the next little section, I would take it from 31 to 34, we have speaking about the reality of our security. These things are going to take place. And someone mentioned in the interval, I think, about Egypt to Canaan.

And you can't trace the Egypt to Canaan. I'm not going to go into it here. But in this chapter, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh.

There's a sacrifice for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. I can see the brazen serpent lifted up. Now, when I come to this section, I can see Balaam, who tried to curse God's people.

But there's nothing to thwart God's purposes. So, he says, what shall we say then to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? Of course, we know the answer to that. There's no thing or no man can be against us.

And He shows us then that He spared His own Son. Spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all. Shall I not with Him also freely give us all things? So, this is something we're absolutely sure about.

It doesn't matter if you've been saved a week or 50 years. There's no old man used to come to me. He was over 90 when I was first saved.

He said, you mean to tell me, young man, you're saved just as much as I am. I said, I don't know very much, but I know that. That was old Mr. Crawford from Bryn Mawr, was it? Robert Crawford's father.

I know the days when Robert Crawford was around Bryn Mawr, but I never knew his father. I must have read about it. No, but it's good to know.

And again, there are young people here. It's a wonderful thing to be saved, but it's greater to know. Nobody can lay an accusation against God's people, against you.

God is for us. Who can be against us? Martin Luther said, God plus one is a majority. God was a majority even without the one, probably.

The exact quote from Balaam, I think, is something like, How shall I curse whom God has blessed? Has God blessed us? Yeah. Well, just go back over the chain that's there. So verse 31, Bill, I just wanted to ask there, What shall we say then to these things? Now, obviously it would have to include the immediate context, but do you take it as it's going right back to the whole unfolding argument throughout the epistle right up to this point? I think primarily it would be this chapter, but I don't see anything wrong with going away back beyond that.

I think we can't get to the end of the chapter without going back to Romans 5 and 2, rejoicing in hope of the glory of God. So, I mean, I think the full scope of all that's there is going to bear into the very end of this chapter. What I appreciate when I read about Balaam is that the children of Israel didn't even know Balaam was there.

And if he had been a little closer to them, he would have heard all the groanings, talking about groanings, but maybe a different way. Groanings and moanings. Their moanings.

He would have heard that all, but when he looked down upon them, he saw them in their perfection. And he couldn't curse them. The son of a king is among them.

The Lord was in their midst. Why are we talking about Balaam? Because who shall lay a charge to God's elect? God is for us. God is for us.

It's almost as if with the overwhelming teaching that is given us from 5 up till now, and what we were and what we are in Christ and what's laying before us, regardless of the circumstances you go through, regardless of what happens in life, how can you lose? Who can be against us? It's not that you're not going to find persecution, you've already been told you will. It's not that you're not going to suffer, you've already been told you will, but you're not going to lose. Everything will work out in the end.

I was just thinking, Duncan, if God be for us, who can be against us? Not because of what we are, but I'm going to tell you because of Christ. He delivered them up for us all. Is He going to let us go now? Paying such an infinite price not for our sins, and we've been looking at our sin, and death, and so on.

He's never going to give us up. It's all based on what Christ has done. And God spared not His own Son.

Delivered Him up. Judas delivered Him up. Israel delivered Him up.

But it was God that delivered Him up. The priests and so on, they had no time for Him. They would deliver Him up.

But it was God's purpose. It was God that was delivering Him up. And through that, He said, shall He not freely with us? Freely.

Shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Wouldn't that be all the blessings that we have in this wonderful person? So at the beginning, the moment we were saved, we got the best of heaven, and everything else that we can get is less than that? No, everything else that we get is equal to that. Okay. We got all these things when God saved us, but we didn't know it.

Whatever blessings we receive in this earthly existence are just bonus. But I think it's nice to see that if you remember that the righteousness of God is the dominant theme of Romans. But when we come to this passage, He's moving beyond the issue of a mechanical justice having been met and cleared and so on.

He gave His own Son. He handed over His own Son for us. There was nothing held back from Christ at Calvary.

And all that that implies is staggering. We could have all the knowledge, but if it doesn't touch the heart, that's the thing. God didn't save us by keeping the law or giving us a set of rules, but it was through His Son, one that He delivered up for us all.

My, how could He? When you think of what sinners we were, and yet God had us on mind when He delivered up His Son. It's the idea of freely here, not so much the Scottish idea without paying anything, but it's the fullness of what He's giving us. Freely give us all things.

Isn't it the word graced? If you took grace and made it a verb, which it really isn't in English, but how shall I not with Him also grace us with all things? So it's the lavishness of the grace of God. Nothing held back. It's interesting to me.

Could God have designed anything better for you or for me than to make us like His Son? Could God have imagined anything better? No. No. Are we all agreed? So bring His Son into the verse we're looking at now.

Could He have given more in order to accomplish that? No. His own Son. No.

So then the emphasis again, this is coming right from chapter 5 on where the much mores come in. The death of His Son, saved through His life. Here we had how far He has gone in the death of His Son by means of the death of His Son.

Now that He has raised Him out of death and He's exalted at His right hand, well, how can He not give us everything with Him? It's all with Him. It's not just that we have everything blessed with, but it's with that very same Son. So the next little section, verse 34, again, it seems like it's a repetition.

Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Or some make it a question. Is it God that justifieth? No.

Who is He that condemneth? Is it Christ who died? Yea, rather that it is risen again. So now you have the resurrection. He was delivered up for us all.

Now He's risen. He's even at the right hand of God. And it says He makes intercession for us.

Well, okay, condemnation. Who is He that condemneth? Okay, the death of Christ took care of our condemnation? So why do we need to have the rest of the sentence? Is He not asking the question shall Christ who died condemn us? Yea, rather that it is risen again. Who is even at the right hand of God who maketh intercession for us.

Shall He condemn us? Obviously not. Did we go to verse 38? That all these forces are against us? None of these can condemn us? Right. Okay, that comes with the next question.

But I wanted us to just enjoy not only is the death of Christ for us but He now with whom we are linked is at the right hand. He's in the place of ultimate favor. And He's in that place of ultimate favor on our behalf.

We have everything moving in our direction in heaven. God Himself is for us. The Son was given for us.

He represents us and our interests in heaven at the right hand. We could not be better off. So who can be against us? There's no opposition.

With Him also freely give us all things. There's no reservation. Who shall lay anything to the charge or who shall lay any charge against? There's no accusation.

Who is He to condemn? If there's no condemnation then the rest of the chapter will deal with no separation. I think it was Harry Bell that went through a lot of nations like that. And then he said, And then I'm going to the railway station.

We're not going to do that to you, Bill. I don't know where the railway station is. No, we do it.

I think it's wonderful to see that He delivered him up but he was raised again. I think that God raised him up. He delivered him up but He raised him up.

And now where is the Lord? He's making intercession for us. You can look at this whole section even from verse 26 down as friends in high places. Because three times you have this for us.

The Spirit is interceding for us. God is for us. Christ is at the right hand of God interceding for us.

So we are fully represented. We are fully being protected. And so there is absolutely no angle from which any enemy can ever bring us down or away from this place that has been given us.

He is at the right hand, our Advocate. He is at the right hand, our High Priest. But I don't think that's the focus here.

It's just that whatever He's doing there it's for us. Is the idea of making intercession for us the fact that He's there? Not that He's mentioning Bill Lavery or Dan Sauer continually. The very fact that He is there standing on our behalf is making intercession for us.

You have that like in Hebrews 9 there to appear before the face of God for us. So it's His beauty and the presence of God as our representative. But I'm not sure how technical this is going to get to explain how it's happening.

I think the wonderful truth is that it's for us. As God looks on us, He sees Christ. Usually the concept of intercession is a meeting together with on behalf of, isn't it? Isn't that the idea? So whether we take it as a specific incident or a continual thing He is there for us.

I was thinking just of the fact that God cannot look on us apart from Christ. So the whole argument here is building up this grand finale. He's been dealing with all that was negative against us in the earlier part of the Epistle.

One by one He has knocked them all down because of the work of Christ on our behalf in the dwelling spirit. And we're learning now that God in all His fullness with all His eternal purpose is for us. Christ is the right hand of God.

He's there for us. There's the love of Christ coming in there in verse 35. And we can't be separated from that.

No, I have thought who also maketh intercession for us maybe I'm wrong, but I've linked that with his priesthood. And then as you come down we're more than conquerors. So it's the fact that He draws close to us to bring us through.

But there's no separation from the love of Christ. I thought of the love of the priest for his own, but whatever way we look at it He's there representing us in the presence of God. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? These things that we've been all talking about and enjoying they're drawing us nearer.

Nobody can separate us. But if we enter into these things we'll be drawn far closer to the Lord. I think that it's all in Him.

It's good to know that everything it's all God's purposes aren't centered around us. They're centered around His Son. He often says He's the center and circumference of God's thoughts.

It's interesting to notice that the love of Christ has already been proven in these areas, in terms of this. That He went through every one of these in order to secure redemption. He endured every one of these tribulation, distress, persecution deprivation and so on.

He endured it all. His love has already been proven to us. So none of these things have the capacity to interfere with His love.

He's already proven true in it. Exactly. Paul's teaching here an unconditional relationship.

Nothing can separate us. There are men today with the teaching that your relationship with God eternal life is dependent on us on our quality of our Christian life. That's not what's being taught here.

For the young people, remember this. The Lord says, I give unto My sheep eternal life. And that's a quality of life.

And they shall never, never perish. Double negative views in John 10. So, we have something here that you can never lose because you did nothing to gain it.

It's all of Christ. Now why do we have verse 36 coming in here? Does that show that the Old Testament and the New Testament are in perfect accord with suffering for Christ? The sufferings in verse 35 are from various angles. They come from the enemies of Christ.

They come from the environment around us, the famine and the nakedness, the deprivation. And they come from just the exigencies of life, like the emergency, the peril, a sword. That may be more accidental than the deliberate tribulation.

Is there any event that can take place in the life of a child of God that severs him from what? Does he not really mean the ultimate purpose of God? When he says the love of Christ, it's that connection that we have with Christ. Then it's showing, isn't it, in that quotation, John, maybe that's what you're thinking about. It's for thy sake.

It's all for Him, isn't it? It's not that we are putting ourselves in positions where through our whatever, misbehavior or misspeaking that we're bringing tribulations on ourselves, but it's because of Him. And it maybe links with the love of Christ because we love Him. We're being brought into these tribulations.

It does seem an odd connection that He would connect the issue of the love of Christ toward us and then with all these things happening. But I think what it's emphasizing is that not only have we, like we might say we've been in the courthouse in the verses just before that, and the enemy cannot prosecute. He cannot prosecute lawfully anything to tear us from our position.

So what does He want to do? Take the mob and persecute us. And here we are looking at things which in ordinary circumstances might cause us to question the love of Christ. Are we being cared for? Are we being protected? It doesn't look like it.

But He's wanting to assure us that none of these things are outside of or a destruction of His love, a proof, an evidence against His love. But in all of these things He's actually enabling us to be a conqueror. The Lord has already gone through that precisely the way you described it.

They couldn't get at Him legally. They couldn't bring any just charge against Him. So the mob had the day.

But we know of individuals that have been burned at the stake. We've read of them. And they still were reveling in the love of Christ even as the flames were burning around them.

And more than conquerors in it. And that's not so far removed from us in time. A father with his children in his automobile in India and the enemies of Christ light the fire and revel in the suffering and the demise of this innocent family.

They're like sheep. Even if we go to the point that they don't matter to anybody any more than sheep. They're just sheep for slaughter.

Does that prove somehow or other that they're not loved? That there's no purpose for them? Because I think you can't separate the love of God from the purpose that's given up earlier. Predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son brought into this amazing relationship as good as glorified. And can anything separate us from that loving purpose? Even if as far as men are concerned they take us to the edge of the grave like the Nazis did and just watch them fall in one at a time like sheep for slaughter.

So this more than conquerors is a present event. Present. As some is going through now.

The story in Foxe's Book of Martyrs is a document worth getting. And this man was sentenced to the stake. He was a pastor and the members of his church said to him if you can bear it, put your hand up.

You've maybe read it. And they put him at the stake, they set fire and the fat was melting off his body. He looked as if he was consumed.

If you can bear it, put your hand up. He said, I will. And at that time his hand went up.

More than conquerors. How? Through Him that loved us. And so the love of Christ enabled him to go through the fire and demonstrate that the Lord hadn't forsaken him.

I understand conquerors. What is a more than conqueror? There are many different ways that this has been explained. Once there was a man, not sure if this is the correct interpretation, but he mentioned the three in the fiery furnace.

And his thought was that when they came out of the furnace there was no smell of the fire upon them. They had conquered. There were more than conquerors.

There was no bitterness for the trial. That was his idea. I like that.

I'm not sure that's what it is. Others teach that it's because the trials draw us closer to Christ. That Satan is outsmarting himself.

And I like that. But when I was reading here just recently I thought maybe it's all that goes before. That all God's purposes were more than conquerors.

Because it's all been signed, sealed, and settled what's going to take place. So it's interesting to hear what the brethren say. I like the second one from the standpoint of the context.

God's ultimate purpose is He's going to make us like Christ. And any circumstance that comes in between God is working all of that together to the ultimate end. So that either death brings me to a release from sin and the inevitability of that likeness to Christ or the trial along the way leads me to likeness to Christ.

So whatever happens the believer is moved onward toward the ultimate purpose of God. In that sense he not only conquers but it's a super conqueror. It's moving to the ultimate good of the ultimate purpose of God for him.

That thrills me that way but maybe there's some other way to look at it. The result is already certain. The ultimate outcome is and everything God does God doesn't say I want this to happen but we'll just let things go willy-nilly in the meantime.

God says this is where we're going and everything is going to be brought toward that end. I think it's the same similar to what you already referred to in 2 Corinthians 4 our light affliction which is but for works for us a far more exceeding and eternal way to glory. So the same thing the enemies can do their worst it will only become the circumstances through which God brings greater glory.

When these martyrs are suffering we'll put them in anyhow it brings glory to God. That's what you've been saying I think. God gets glory and what does God's people get? I think they get blessing and encouragement that there's others that would go through these difficulties.

Paul and Silas singing in the prison were conquerors. Whenever they baptized the jailer in his household they were more than conquerors. If you just go back to your man with his hand raised in some sense whatever character is there to start with is revealed in the trial but in some sense that man was never more like Christ than in the ultimate trial he raises his hand and says glory to God.

And I think that's the greatest thing when you think of the cross and Christ glorifying God in the midst like why hast thou forsaken me but thou art holy glorifying God in the midst of the depths of his anguish never was that man more like Christ than he was when he raised his hand. His mind in the midst of his absolute torment and anguish was on his flock. He must have been like Christ in his life.

He wouldn't be like Christ in his death. That part's true. I'm already being poured out but Paul was poured out in his life, wasn't he? Now the time is just about gone there's not much more except not saying the rest isn't important but all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us we're super victorious for I am persuaded and he mentions these things death, life, angels, principalities, powers things present nor things to come nor height, things above, nor depth, things below nor any other thing that's created shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And the question is who can be against us? Here in these verses what can be against us? Why? The answer is because when it comes to salvation the one thing that God produces is a heart that loves God and of all the things that term a believer, a brother, Christians I think the most precious one is surrounding, and it's in this context them that love God and we have the expression that we're going to be conformed to his image basically, to me what is so precious is that our love, we're going to be conformed to the image of his son and my son loved the Father that's primarily what God is producing in us a heart that loves God that's what brought martyrs to the stage of the love of Christ and the war wasn't in Adam would that change God's eternal purpose? No Would the fact that he gave life somehow be a different bypass of God's purpose? Did he change his purpose? Does anything of time or space or angelic creation does anything like that change what God purposed before the beginning? Will he ever do anything else in the ages to come? Any other creation will he ever do anything else that will change the purpose that he had from eternity? That purpose? No To make you like Christ? No Can anything separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord? It is impossible I've come to the subtle conclusion Paul says, I thought this over very carefully and I've concluded this there's nothing eternal purpose will stand you and I will be like Christ nothing can change that So we're going to be conformed to the image of his son What should be our desires now? To be more like him now This is what's going to take place There's going to be a great change The good of it was a little bit less If I'm becoming more like him now May the Lord help us Thank you very much brethren Where's your hymn? We shall be like thy son God will bless us Give us something to sing about We shall be like thy son Should we not sing that hymn? And is it so? We shall be like thy son Father of glory Thought beyond all thought In glory to his own blessed likeness brought And is it so? We shall be like thy son Is this the grace With which he bore us as one? Father of glory Thought beyond all thought In glory to his own blessed likeness brought O Jesus Lord Who loved us like to thee Fruit of thy work With me to bear to see Thy glory, Lord While endless ages roll Thy saints the prize and travel on Thy soul Yet it must be Thy love that naught is rest Where thy redeemed love With me fully blest That love that gives Not as the world but shares All it possesses With its love coheres Not we alone Thy loved ones all complete In glory round thee There with joy shall be All like thee for Thy glory like thee, Lord A debt supreme of all My all adore The heart is satisfied Can ask no more All thought of self Is now forever o'er Christ is a Negro A debt fills the heart Endless adoring love Is endless heart