In this sermon, the speaker shares their personal experience of being involved in a manipulative and brainwashing religious group for five years. They emphasize the importance of genuine friendship evangelism, where believers should invest time and care in building relationships with those they want to share the gospel with. The speaker also discusses the concept of "clear" in Scientology, which refers to erasing past experiences and even past lives through their practices. They caution against the dangers of false teachings and encourage believers to be vigilant and discerning, drawing inspiration from Paul's warning about savage wolves infiltrating the flock in Acts 20:29-31.

The Christian Research Institute presents the Bible Answer Man, the nationwide radio broadcast that examines today's religious movements and gives reasons for faith. For decades this program has been giving believers and non-believers alike solid defenses and biblically based answers about the Christian faith. We've also been using it as a beacon of warning about the counterfeit Christs, false prophets and teachers, and destructive heresies that the Bible mentions. And so it is with all of the outreaches of the Christian Research Institute. Whether by radio broadcast, cassette tape, or printed material, we offer information on cults, world religions, heretical teachings, and other spiritual counterfeits, so that we in the body of Christ may be more aware of them and be more effective in reaching their members with the true gospel. If you'd like a copy of our resource catalogue, which lists all of the primary materials we have to offer, just write us and ask for it, and we'll send it to you free of charge. Here's our address, the Christian Research Institute, or CRI, Post Office Box 500, San Juan Capistrano, California, 92693. Just two weeks ago, the cover of Time Magazine read, Scientology, Cult of Greed. Now when a secular periodical like Time Magazine exposes a cult like Scientology, you can be rest assured that you're dealing with a monster. And we know that the issue has sparked some interest, so to answer your questions today and give us a Christian perspective on this dangerous religion are two of its former members who may be familiar to some of you, and who will be discussing Scientology with Hank Hanegraaff, President of CRI. Thank you, Mike. You know, whenever I think of the cult of Scientology, I think of what Paul says in the book of Acts. He's bidding farewell to the Ephesian elders, and he says, and now compelled by the spirit, I'm going to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there. I only know that in every city, the Holy Spirit warns me that prison and hardships are facing me. Then he says, however, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me, the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace. The very first thing that he's pointing out is that there are dangers involved in being an ambassador for the Lord Jesus Christ. And when you tackle Scientology, you have, as Mike has correctly pointed out, tackled a monster. Paul goes on to say, keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number, men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard, he says. Remember that for three years, I never stopped warning each of you, night and day, with tears. You know, when I memorized that not long ago, I thought of Scientology, and I thought of that last word, tears, because that's a perfect acrostic for the questions I want to ask you with regards to Scientology, T-E-A-R-S. We're going to talk about thetans. We're going to talk about engrams or the e-meter. We're going to talk about auditing, reincarnation, and Scientology. But before that, I want to welcome Keith and Sean Scott back to the broadcast studios of the Christian Research Institute. Thank you, Hank. It's good to be here. Hank, we're always excited to come and share with you. I'm excited to have you here. I listened to the broadcast we did so many months ago, I guess about a year ago, and it was exciting to be with you then, and I know that as a result of that Bible Answer Man broadcast, people's lives were impacted. As a matter of fact, I think you were sharing with me a compelling testimony of someone who was brought out of darkness into the marvelous light of God's grace. Hank, thanks to CRI, being here is a beacon of light. People call, they get information about Scientology, they get our phone number, and we send them some information. I had a beautiful story recently where a mother called us about her son who had just gotten into Scientology. She was very concerned. He had given his life to the Lord many years before, but had backslidden, and through sending our information pack out, through her prayers, not only did he give up his quest for Scientology after he got accurate knowledge about what was going to happen to him in the cult, but we're happy to report that after hearing a good testimony of a good Christian friend, he accepted Christ just a few days ago. That is so exciting. You know, I tell you, I delight in having you here for so many reasons, not the least of which is the fact that you make me feel so comfortable. Sean was nursing your newest addition in studio just before the broadcast, and we had to shuffle her out real quick so she wouldn't cry over the air. My wife does that all the time. I've got five kids, so I'm used to that kind of an environment, so I feel comfortable with you here. I'm glad. And I really do appreciate the work that you're doing as well. It is a very worthwhile work, but there are some incredible dangers associated with doing this kind of work. In fact, when you expose Scientology, you can expect some threatening phone calls. We've already gotten them, Hank, and I know you've gotten some yourself for the work you've done. You just had one the other day. Just the other day. I don't need to go over it in detail, but it was frightening, but we just pray that Christ would continue to protect us, and if he's led us down this path to expose this cult, that he'll provide for us in all ways. You know, at a recent NRB, National Religious Broadcasters, in the exhibit hall, Scientologists had booths set up, and they were passing their wares on to unsuspecting pastors, and I watched for a little while, and the pastors were just so excited about what was being shared. They had no idea that this was Scientology, and I remembered the words of Dr. Walter Martin, who said, if you can't tell the difference between the fleece of sheep and the fur of wolves, you're going to lose your spiritual arms, and this is exactly what was happening right at the National Religious Broadcasters. Hank, what were they there under the guise of? What was their name? They were there under the guise of two front groups, and that is one of the dangers of Scientology. How do you know whether you're dealing with something that's worthwhile, or something that is a front group to indoctrinate you in Scientology? For example, Applied Scholastics sound dangerous to me, or some of the other front groups, like Narconon. That's a great example. You're going in to deal with the drug problem, and you end up in perhaps a worse problem. A real good one that I've noticed is, we have in the Christian realm, Christian Businessmen of America, and they have a group called Concerned Businessmen of America. It's so close, and it sounds so righteous. One could easily be confused and think they're coming to a godly meeting, when they're in fact not. Hank, another one that's, I think it was in a newspaper recently, is one of the fastest growing companies in the United States is Sterling Management Company, and they go in to professionals, doctors, dentist offices, and try to show them new management techniques to reduce stress and save time, and everybody's interested in that, but you're buying a Scientology program. You know, interestingly enough, when you mentioned the word stress, I just got an envelope that came through the mail, and in great big letters, red letters in fact, it said the word stress, and I thought, well this is perfect for me, because I'm under stress constantly, and I opened it up, and there was Scientology propaganda. They're involved in a major mailing campaign, and they really want to become a mainstream Dale Carnegie type of a program, where people go and assist something new to help themselves. Millions of dollars is also invested in researching what are America's buttons right now, and how do you approach the average individual on whatever the button is of the times, and they push it, expecting that you'll reach out for their information. The button now is stress. And when you're talking about millions of dollars, they have millions of dollars to spend. Absolutely. I mean, we're talking about a cult that is very well-founded. And when we talk about it as a cult, I think we can probably talk about it in that regard from both a theological and a sociological standpoint. In a social standpoint, I think it's fair to say that it fits the definition of a group of people that are being controlled in virtually every dimension of their lives by the group or by the cult. In a theological sense, in some ways, they pretend that they are Christian, yet they deny all of the essentials of the historic Christian faith. Interestingly enough, the book dedicated to L. Ron Hubbard called Scientology, put out by the Scientologists, has a caption, and it says, ìA world religion emerges in the space age.î And it goes on to dedicate itself to L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, whose unique genius, it says, has united the realms of spirit and natural science to enhance immeasurably the life and the consciousness of our time, as well as the ages and civilizations yet unborn. So Scientology really is appealing to ìthe scientific age,î isn't it? I think it really reaches to those people because those people also are usually high-income earners, engineers, people who like to have things analyzed and explainable. And there is a formula and a step-by-step procedure for everything in life if you're in Scientology. If you don't have enough friends, they have a formula to follow. If you want to achieve ultimate spiritual freedom, they have another formula. Indeed. Well, I want to go back to my acrostic tears because Scientology has definitely left tears in many people's eyes who have participated, not the least of which are your own eyes. You have suffered as a result of being involved with Scientology for many years, and now God has brought you out of Scientology and is using you to expose the error. But tears, I think that is an appropriate acrostic, and I want to go through each one of the letters that make up the word tears, T-E-A-R-S. First of all, T, Thetans, T-H-E-T-A-N-S. What is that, and what's the significance from the standpoint of Scientology? Well Thetans are what we would call the spirit. They're the part of man, our actual essence, and Scientology believes that when you've achieved spiritual levels above clear, that you can just leave your body and you as a Thetan can just travel around, similar to astral projection. You're not confined within your body any longer, and you can just go and move around at will. They believe also that through their processes, you can get to the place where you can control your environment and control your universe, and it's very much like godness, being in godhood, once you've achieved their various levels. Who would believe this stuff? For example, at the cost of $17,000, according to Time Magazine, and a couple of months invested in terms of your time, you can find out about Scientology's sacred scriptures, the story about the galactic ruler Zeno, volcanic explosions on earth, and the implantations of the spirits or body Thetans. This level also helps free you from the effects of drugs taken in past lives. Now, who's going to believe this kind of stuff, and yet, this is the sort of science fiction that you're taught in Scientology. We've discovered that they partake in what is known by counter-cult psychiatry and what not in progressive truths, that when you first get in, you are given the very palatable thoughts and the very logical, solid-sounding ideas, and it isn't until you become more and more indoctrinated that you find out some of the bizarre things, and by the time you find out about the body clusters of Thetans and stuff, you're so indoctrinated, you don't know whether you're coming or going. Scientology has really become mainstream in that they're sponsors of the Goodwill Games, Ted Turner's Goodwill Games, with Sony and Pepsi and so forth, so they showcase themselves along with household names. You have people like Tom Cruise, Kirstie Alley, John Travolta, Sonny Bono, Chick Corea, and many others, Priscilla Presley, yeah, would be another great example. They are touted as being Scientologists. Do they really know what's going on, or are their names just being used? Well, there's a very different treatment given to those who have the kind of financial comfort that these people do. They don't see the more difficult side that a typical staff member would experience, and Scientology does not want to lose the income that these people have, so there is somewhat of a different approach given to these kind of guys. Last time you were on the broadcast, you talked about, Keith, I believe, being involved in slave labor, actually. For Scientology, John Travolta doesn't have to go through that, right? No, I don't think they're going to make John Travolta get into a blue boiler suit and not see his wife or family for two years. But they do do that to the average run-of-the-mill Scientologist? Well, if you join staff and you've committed to work there for two and a half years or five years... And by the way, you do that because normally you can't even pay for what you hopefully will gain from Scientology, so you really enlist, so to speak, and you give your time in exchange for the sessions. Right, for the sessions, but Hank, what really happens is you work, they require so much work from you while you're there, you don't have any time to get the sessions that you're supposedly working to get for free. Indeed. But back to the slave labor or the RPF as it's known, a person I had just talked to on the phone, I told him about my testimony when he went down to the Scientology Center, he said, do you have an RPF? He said that to one of the Scientologists there, and they said, oh yes, and we have an RPF's RPF. So it's just ridiculous what people will sink to, but Scientology does do that and they're doing it right now. Well, you know, it's really interesting when we talk about Thetans, we think that the average person who is rational and sentient would not fall for this sort of thing, yet John Travolta is quoted as saying, it, Scientology, just contains the secrets of the universe. That may be hard for people to handle sometimes, really hearing that, but it's true. Or Kirstie Alley says, it's not hocus pocus, if you can erase your engrams, then you can get better. Now, E stands for engrams in my little acrostic tears, so let's talk about engrams. What are engrams? Well, there's volumes written on engrams and what they are, but from my experience, having been audited and having audited other people, an engram is nothing more than a moment of pain and unconsciousness that you felt at some time prior to where you are now. And usually these engrams are in prior lives, and that is what Scientology wants you to remember. You cannot get better in Scientology, the bulletins say, if you do not remember past life incidents. Interestingly enough, while you were a child, you first heard about these e-meters, and that sounds fairly scientific. What is it really? Well, as a child, I heard about it because my father was a Scientologist, and he would audit us children, ask us to remember past life things, and we thought my dad was kind of wacky. We loved him, but it was a strange belief he had. But the e-meter is very similar to a lie detector. It picks up the sweat on your skin, and if a person is telling the truth or not telling the truth, this varies in the resistance. There's an electrical current going through your body, a small one, to measure this, and that is how they feel like they can tell if you're being honest with them, if you're actually remembering a real incident that happened 10 million years ago. Interesting. You talk about your experience, and you mention the word auditing, which is the A in tears. What's auditing all about? Well, that's like the counselor-patient relationship that psychologists might have or counselors. The person who is trained to manage the e-meter and to ask the provided questions to the counselee is said to be auditing that counselee. They lead them through very fixed questions and processes. Each process has a projected outcome, and they lead this counselee through that list of questions until they get what they perceive to be the fixed outcome. But more on the auditing, Hank, is that the longer I've been out, the more I remember that this auditing was a form of brainwashing. A real quick example of an auditing session would be an auditor standing there talking to his pre-clear, a person who's not attained clear yet, and he'd say, look at that wall, and you'd say, okay, I'm looking at it. He'd say, walk over to that wall, and you would walk over to it, then he'd say, touch that wall. You'd touch it, and then you'd turn around, and you'd repeat the same thing over and over for hours. Now that I look back, that is a form of breaking you down, brainwashing you into going along with what, and you keep doing that until you remember or think of something good. By the way, when you say clear, we're talking about literally erasing the blackboard, not only in terms of what's happened previously in this life, but in past lives as well, which brings me to the R in tears, reincarnation. Tell me what reincarnation is all about. According to the Scientologists, do they even like to use that word? No, they really don't. They like to call it past lives, and there's a lot of Shirley MacLaine things around about people who have remembered past lives, things that are on the television, so they sort of play along with that and say, yes, there are past lives, and they believe that we haven't just lived once or twice before, but we've had millions of lifetimes going back trillions of years, and this is why man is in such a terrible state right now, because all these years have piled up, all these bad things, and we need to get rid of all those engrams. Well, I'll tell you, we want to end not with tear, but tears, so we've got to come up with an S, and that's Scientology. When we mention the word Scientology, what does that really mean? How did L. Ron Hubbard come up with the word Scientology, and why is that so descriptive in the age of scientific enlightenment of the reason people get involved in the first place? Well, Scientology, knowing how to know the scientific aspect of life, that's what attracted me, quite honestly. Life is hard to handle sometimes, and it would be nice to think that there was a science to it. There's sort of the illusion that what you've learned in Christianity is okay, but it's sort of for when you were in diapers in kindergarten, but now that you're enlightened, you can move up and progress into the scientific enlightenment of Scientology. Or even, you've tried that Christian stuff before, did it help you out? Well, not really. Well, try this. This will really give you something to hang your hat on. It's also, Ted, it's not being the only way, but it is a workable way. Once you get involved, though, you can't pursue any other workable ways. It has to be only this way, and it appeals to people who want very clear, concise answers for everything in life. With a name like Scientology, it's a real draw to that type of thinker. I thought of this across the tears on my way into work this morning, and I just sprung this on you. I know that our listening audience now has a handle by which they can remember some of the tenets of Scientology, so maybe vicariously for the audience, if I go through each one of those letters, I want to see if you can remember. What's the T stand for? Thetans. Oh, very good. And the E? E-meter and Ingrams. Oh, very good. You've got both of them. The A stands for? The Auditing, which is nothing more than a glorified counseling session. And the R? Reincarnation. And S? Scientology. Well, you did good. Now, you got a couple of them. Keith didn't get. He was looking there sort of with a blank stare. I hope all of you out there have gotten this as well. I had an Ingram. I couldn't think. Okay, great. I'm going to read a quick letter. I pulled your address from the Christian Herald Magazine. I'm a lifelong Catholic and former Scientology, looking to make a break from my past and to find some answers to questions that I have of my faith and future life. I'd appreciate any information you may have to organizations and or support groups that are available for someone like myself. Thank you. So here's a person who was involved in Scientology, who was looking for a support group, who was helped as a result of information that we supplied and as a result of that has come out of Scientology. Praise the Lord. That's really the bottom line, isn't it? That's why we do what we're doing. It's not necessarily to cast aspersions on other people. It's not simply to be against something, but it's bringing people out of darkness into the marvelous light of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I so appreciate the work that you both are doing. I know that you have put your lives on the line, the lives of your family on the line in taking the sorts of stands that you are taking. And in the second half of the broadcast, I want our audience across the United States and Canada to have an opportunity to ask you questions personally. Even if you're a Scientologist and you don't agree with what we're saying, we would invite you to call in and we're looking forward to talking to you. Mike, every time we've had Keith and Sean Scott in studio, it's been an exciting experience. That's right. And as you mentioned, we'll be taking open calls during the second half of the broadcast. Our toll-free numbers are 1-800-821-4490. Again in the United States, that's 1-800-821-4490. In Canada, dial toll-free 1-800-541-9437. Also, if you'd like to write us, remember our address, CRI, Post Office Box 500, San Juan Capistrano, California, 92693. We're coming up to a station break. For those of you staying with us, we'll be right back with the second half of the Bible Answer Man program. Welcome back to the second half of today's Bible Answer Man program, presented by the Christian Research Institute, the world's oldest and largest evangelical counter-cult ministry. It is our prayer that God will continue to use this broadcast as a means of speaking the truth and love about the errors of spiritual counterfeits and non-Christian cults, along with the many other outreaches of CRI, like our newsletter, the Christian Research Journal and International Division. We continue to assist Christians in upholding the mandate of 1 Peter 3.15, which is to sanctify Christ as Lord in our hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks us, to give an account for the hope that is in us, yet with gentleness and reverence. As Hank, our president, puts it, we as believers not only need to know what we believe, but why we believe it. So, if you're in dialogue with a Juanes Pentecostal, a Mooney or a Mormon, and you need information on what they believe, write us and request it. If you don't yet have a copy of our resource catalog, ask for that as well. We'll be glad to send it to you free of charge. Our address is the Christian Research Institute, Box 500, San Juan Capistrano, California, 92693. Let me give that to you one more time, CRI, Box 500, San Juan Capistrano, California, and our zip code is 92693. For those of you who have just joined us, we are joined in studio by Keith and Sean Scott. They are being interviewed by Hank today, and in a few moments, we'll be taking your phone calls, answering questions on the subject of Scientology. Hank? Mike, in part, Time Magazine provided an answer to the question why so many, even well-educated professionals can be deceived by such an outrageous system of beliefs as Scientology, but I got a letter the other day which I think tells the story with far more eloquence. It says, maybe I should have known all along that the story about Jesus was true, but somehow I just didn't get it. The whole thing seemed mythological to me, a tale spun by humans to get other humans to live a more moral life, helpful in an innocuous sort of way, but nothing to get excited about. Then in my late thirties, I bottomed out. Disappointed and wounded, I determined to find the answer to life or else to kill myself. I began a spiritual search that took me from Scientology to Silva Mind Control. Nothing I tried satisfied. In Silva, I was introduced to spirit guides, and in Scientology, I was introduced to tap the power within myself. However, regardless of what I tried, the emptiness never went away until one day I was stopped on the street by a witness for Christ. I was invited to a Bible study, and I discovered the evidence for the historicity of the Bible. I remember that night thinking, dear God, it's true. The Sunday school story is really true. I saw the truth intellectually before I ever saw it emotionally. The evidence is there for anyone who will hear. And I suppose if anything sums up why we're doing the program or broadcast today, it would be letters like these. And for that reason, at the top of the second half hour of the broadcast, I want to ask you for some witnessing tips. How do you communicate with the Scientologist? What is the best way to reach them? Is it to dump a lot of information on them, or are there some things that you have to do prior to presenting the gospel, such as building a relationship, for example? That's a good one, Hank. I'll give you a couple, and Sean, I'm sure, has a few to add. But the first thing, if you have a friend, associate, or someone you know who's starting to get into it, don't wait. That is the prime time to talk to them about Scientology, because it's, in my belief, a long series of brainwashing, changing your thought from one to another. So the longer they're in, it becomes very, very difficult to get out, even though it's an answer to prayer. I was in five years and totally brainwashed. It's a miracle to the Lord that I'm here right now of his faithfulness. Hank mentioned friendship evangelism. If Christ puts on your heart to witness to someone, become his friend. Don't just try to say a few things and run away. Care about this person, love him, which we're instructed to do in the Scriptures, and become a person that he can confide in. Find out how long he's been in Scientology, if he's been in for a year, two years, three years, and try to draw him into a conversation about what he believes, and then you should be able and prepared, like the Scripture says, to share the reasons for the hope that lies within you. In this type of communication, open, friendly, without becoming antagonistic to one another, when they start examining their thoughts and beliefs, we think that's the road where some truth might get in. I just would add that it's real important not to be combative or judgmental to what their belief system is. If you can do, as Keith said, ask questions and say, I read this and this about your beliefs. That's interesting. My beliefs are this way, and how do you relate the two? And seem as though you're interested just from a curious viewpoint, rather than wanting to convert the other person. Also, one of the best things, and the foremost thing, is to be in prayer about that person's soul. You can't endeavor in one of these things without having a spiritual covering of prayer. Amen. Well, I know I have so many questions I wish I could ask you right now, but time is slipping away on us, so I'm going to go to the phone lines and talk to Vivian in Glendale, California. She's listening on KKLA. Vivian, you're on the air. Yes. Hi, Hank. Hi. Hi, Vivian. This is Keith. I came across your program quite accidentally here, and I heard you had a former Scientologist on. I am a Scientologist, and I have been one for 14 years. I'm a mature lady. I have grown children. In fact, it was my daughter that introduced me to Scientology. As a young mother, I knew that, and I was always a very religious person, and still am, and I always knew there was more to life than I was seeing. I was becoming kind of down, because life wasn't exactly, you know, as you get older you see the hopes and the dreams that you have aren't really culminating, so it kind of makes you go downhill. So, when my daughter introduced me to Scientology, I saw that there are a lot of answers here that I was looking for, and through Scientology, I have been able to refurbish my education by taking a study course. I always was a decent student in school, but I found out why I wasn't a better student, and I went back and refurbished that. Now I can study and read and really get something out of the books I read. Okay, Vivian, here's a good example of someone who's gotten into Scientology. Her name is Vivian, she's on the air, and she's saying that Scientology has really filled the vacuum or the void in her life, which we say only Jesus Christ can fill. How would you respond to Vivian? Well, Vivian, I was curious. You said that you were religious, or felt that you were, and actually still consider you religious. Does that mean that you believe in Christ? Well, I believe that Christ was a very special person, yes, I certainly do, and I believe he lived and did all the things that we say he did. You know, in Scientology, it's up to us to determine what is true for us, and we certainly believe in a supreme being. So, you know, I'm just a little sorry, Hank, that you don't have someone on the program at the same time you have these other people, because it's kind of like a kangaroo court. Well, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Vivian, you're on the air, and we're not about to cut you off, but hang on for just a second. You're doing a wonderful job representing Scientology. You talk about Jesus Christ, and how Scientology views Jesus Christ. Keith and Sean, you don't happen to agree with this opinion. Hank, I'm not an official authority on that. Oh, I understand that, Vivian. I don't have an opinion. Right, I understand that, no problem. Vivian, we're not authorities either, we're just sharing our experiences, what we learned over our five years, too. But what do you think about Christ? Is he the savior of man, or is he just a great person, philosopher? Frankly, I've always thought he was a very great person. You believe that he was God? Well, probably, yeah. You know, the thing is, there is a supreme being out there, and there's a lot of greatness in all of us, and he certainly was an outstanding one. But do you believe that he was God, the supreme being? I really would really not want to say, because that's a very personal thing to me. Well, you know, ultimately, that's what Jesus Christ says the acid test is. Who do you say that I am? That's your view, sir. No, no, that's not my view. That's what Jesus Christ said. As a matter of fact, Jesus Christ over and over again said that I and the Father am one. If you've seen me, you've seen the Father. No one comes to the Father but by me. He either had to be crazy, on the level of someone who calls himself a poached egg, or he had to be, in fact, God. But you can't say he's a good teacher when he says that sort of thing. If that's true to you, then it is true. Vivian, I was curious, because I learned some things about how Scientology felt about Christ after I got out, which were offending to me, but I wonder if you got to a level, and I don't know what level you're at now, but you found out that Christ, instead of being a great person, was the cause of all the ills that are afflicting mankind right now. Would that offend you? You know, I don't recall reading anything about Christ at all. What level are you at right now, Vivian? I'm a clear. On an auditing level? I'm a clear. Are you an auditor also? No, I'm not. Okay, I would suggest and encourage you to ask questions because... Who am I talking to right now? This is Keith, I'm sorry. Ask your friends higher up, what does Ron Hubbard say about Jesus? You know, the one thing, I don't have to do that, because I have seen enough in Scientology where I've seen it work. I have a lot of young friends from the 60s and the 70s that are off of drugs because of that. And so really, it's handling a lot in life. There's a lot more to life, and right now what I'm doing is I'm able to handle myself better on this planet right now. I'm a very ethical person, and Scientologists have to be ethical for it to work, to really work. So that's what I'm addressing right now, and by your telling people not to get into Scientology, you're doing this civilization a great deal of harm, because it does make better ethical people. I'm giving them the value of our experiences, what we experienced while we were there. Vivian, interestingly enough, Time Magazine in its recent... Beg your pardon? I have not seen the article. Well, I was just going to tell you about it. It's entitled, Scientology, the Cult of Greed. I just want to remind you, they killed Christ on the cross. Now, what do you think about that? Do you think Time Magazine would say anything good about anything? If they killed Jesus Christ on the cross, what can we expect of others on this planet? Well, Vivian, that is a rather unusual analogy, and let me say that I rarely find myself agreeing with Time Magazine, but I think they've done an outstanding job in this article. Because that's what you choose to believe. Well, see, Vivian, I appreciate and respect your opinion, but let me say this, that truth is not subjective. Truth is objective. And unfortunately, so many people involved in Scientology believe that you can have your truth, and I can have my truth, never mind the fact that the two truths conflict. Now, that is not rational and sentient in an age of scientific enlightenment. Would you say, Sean? No, and also, by the same token, if my truth happens to be that I think I have the right to kill people because I think I'm special in some way, what makes my truth any less important than your truth? Who really decides what real truth is, and whose truth has a right to exist, and whose truth doesn't? In fact, Vivian, why don't you listen with an open mind to what Sean has to say about what you can learn in Scientology about who Christ really is. There's sanity, and there's insanity. Well, we'll show you some insanity. Hang on for just a second. Go ahead. We're in touch with a fellow who was audited by an individual who has helped convince him that he was the biological father of Jesus Christ, and that the Virgin Mary was not really a virgin, that she was impregnated by accident through some scam, and because of the horrendous, we call it sin, you would call it overt, act of him having fathered the person of Jesus Christ, he has to make up to the church over $1,750,000 to be used for different things. That's an actual person who's been harmed by what you consider a great religion. Pardon me? I said I wouldn't comment about that, because I don't know anything about that. Well, you wouldn't know anything about that because you're not allowed to look at anything that is negative against Scientology, are you? I'm sorry? You wouldn't know anything about that because you're not allowed to read or listen to anything that's negative about Scientology. You would call that in theta, and you are instructed to not look at the Time Magazine article, the book by Paulette Cooper who was victimized by Scientology. I have a Bible in my home. I have all kinds of books in my home. I have a book about Buddha. That may be, but is it a fact that you are not allowed to read anything that is negative about Scientology? May I remind you that this is the United States and not Nazi Germany? Well, that's one place that we can absolutely, 100% agree with you. This is the United States, and you have the right to be a Scientologist, but I also have the right to warn millions of listeners that Scientology is devastating, and it is cruel in the extreme for me to know what I know about Scientology, and for Keith and Sean to know what they know, and yet not say a thing, because people are being damaged. And you are demonstrating, Vivian, that you are not open-minded, but your mind is completely closed. You do not want to look at anything objectively. You want to say what you want to say, but you're not willing to reason. This is your show, and it is a one-sided show, so I guess I don't... Well, I tell you what, you've had a lot of time on this show, and we appreciate you calling today, and if you want to talk to us reasonably at any point in time, I've got all the time in the world for you, and so do Keith and Sean. Beg your pardon? In other words, if I agree with you, I can call back. Not at all. In fact, you can disagree with me all day long, but if you want to reason and talk about truth objectively and with an open mind, I've got all the time in the world for you. God bless. See you, Vivian. All right. Thank you. Okay. I appreciate you calling. Keith and Sean, this to me is a great case study. Here we have someone that we're trying to speak with objectively, and you talk oftentimes, as I've communicated with you, about the brainwashing that takes place in Scientology. You even learn to use a whole new vocabulary. I think it would be important for you to elaborate on that. Well, some of the techniques that we have discovered are pertinent to the process of brainwashing, is you isolate the individual from that which is familiar, from his friends and family who are not part of the group. You work that person, keep them so busy, so tired, that they don't have the time or the energy to thoughtfully question what they're reading. The language becomes very, very unique to the group, and you get to the place where you cannot communicate sensibly with a non-believer of that cult. You try to talk with your mother, father, or someone who's not in it, and you can't even find the words to describe what you're saying, because they're not in the normal language. They're some concoction that Alan Hubbard's come up with. And something that's really near and dear to my heart, Hank, is here's a woman, Vivian, who's called. She's got a Bible in her home, she considers herself religious, and here she's throwing herself behind Scientology, and at the higher levels, gang, Scientology hates Christ. They hate what he stands for, they hate everything about it, and they do not believe that the Bible is even an accurate historical document. So we have misinformation out there. And I really pray that Vivian would get the scales off her eyes and read the scriptures that she has right there in her house. Also, initially, when one is pursuing interest in Scientology, they are told it's okay to have an open mind. If you want to be a Christian or Jewish or whatever, that's fine, it's compatible. But once you're in, and you're considered to be one of the flock, if you are considered open mind, that's actually a label that you are given, and you can be put through various ethical demotive processes and punishments because you are, quote, open minded. You know, I was on a NBC radio affiliate secular talk show talking about Scientology recently, and a number of Scientologists called in, and quite frankly, and I'm just being gut level honest with you here, a chill ran through me, because I have seen firsthand what they do to those who dare oppose them. For example, someone who I consider reputable, as far as I know, although I don't have all the details, was framed and exposed, quote, unquote, by Scientology as a pedophile. And so they've dispensed with this person, they have completely destroyed this person's character, so there is a price to pay to take on Scientology. Some of you who are listening to me right now know that we have the courage to take on cults, and even within the body of Christ we get insults, but it's one thing to hear a Paul Crouch refer to the heresy hunters and shout something like, God's going to shoot you if I don't, or to hear Benny Hinn tell a nationwide TV audience that he'd like to blast us with his Holy Ghost machine gun. I don't take threats like that too seriously, although sometimes I worry about some of their more unstable followers, but it's quite another thing to consider the mafia-like tactics used by cults, like Scientology, to deal with their enemies. For example, Time Magazine says this, those who criticize Scientology often find themselves engulfed in litigation, stalked by private eyes, framed for fictional crimes, and beaten up or threatened with death. Now, is that overstating the case? No, I was going to ask Vivian, she said, I live an ethical life, and a lot of Scientologists would say, yes, I'm very ethical, and they're ethical as long as they're doing things that help their causes. What they did to Paulette Cooper was a crime, and it wasn't found out until the FBI literally beat the doors down with sledgehammers, took their files, and proved that they had totally set up Paulette Cooper. What kind of an organization is this that even dares to take on the government of the United States? How powerful are they? Powerful, well-backed financially, and very paranoid. Paranoid? Organizations take on the characteristics of their leadership. Is this true? That's right. Was L. Ron Hubbard paranoid? Absolutely. Well, we know many people who worked with L. Ron Hubbard personally. He's a recluse. I never saw him, and I was in for five years. I was at FLAG. I never saw him, and very few people did. However, the people that did work with him said that he had people tasting his food all the time to make sure he wasn't poisoned. He was insane about cleanliness. He had people vacuum the carpeting seven times to make sure there was no dust. His clothing had to be washed over and over in some special solution before he would wear it. There are just numerous stories. I want to now go back to our phone lines and talk to John in Pasadena, California. John, you're on the broadcast. Yes, good afternoon. Good afternoon. I would like to gain some clarification on some of the lesser-known doctrines, I might say official doctrines of Scientology regarding, and I hope I have the name correct, a leader, Xenu, that I believe was on planet Earth so many millions of years ago. Can you give me some background information on that? What is the source of your documentation? The leader is called Xenu, X-E-N-U. As I said earlier, I was in Scientology for five years and read quite a bit and listened to many tapes, but I cannot recall the exact place where we heard the story about Xenu. But if you look up your LA Times articles, it was written in there. But from what we gather, he was the creator of all evil in the world. He victimized all of us who were on planet Earth by sending us down into volcanoes and dropping atomic bombs on our heads. I'm being serious when I say that. I know it sounds ludicrous, but that's what it is. And then this person... ...put us in there? Could you repeat that? You said he put us in volcanoes, meaning us in our previous lives? Yes, as Thetans. We were debilitated by being put in these volcanoes with atomic bombs dropped on our heads and we were cursed to live a life of never knowing that we'd lived before. And Iran talks a lot about Xenu. And didn't... Is the basis of the negative engrams tied to the beings, us I guess, that were trapped in the volcanoes? They escaped and then they put on negative engrams on people today. Is that a correct perception on my part? Well, I'm not sure. I know that the whole incident would be a negative engram. I think that the higher auditing levels like OT-3 and OT-3X, you actually remember supposedly this incident that happened to you. But I can't say authoritatively because I never achieved that auditing level. And I think right now, Hank, I'm kind of glad I didn't. Well, did they escape and now they bombard people with their engrams or influence? Oh, you mean the Thetans that are in this volcano thing? From what I understand, that's us today. We all had that happen to us. This sounds a little like science fiction. And I think that's a fairly important point to make. L. Ron Hubbard was quite a good writer, I guess, of science fiction, if you want to consider this good writing. Very intriguing writer. Very convincing too, John. I know you read this stuff and you try to make sense of it. But he was very, very eloquent. I hope that answers your question, John. Are you calling because you were a Scientologist? I'm a Christian. I do teaching and writing on cults and the occult. I haven't made a detailed study of Scientology, at least not yet. And I've heard about this, that somehow there was an escape, if I'm not remembering incorrectly, from the volcanoes of these beings. And aren't they the basis of our bombardment? Ingram bombardment? Can't speak to that, John. Just don't know. Yeah. I don't like to repeat things that are inaccurate, so I wanted to try to gain clarification on that. Well, if you stay on the line, we can send you all the clarification you need. I need to move along. I appreciate your call, John. We're running out of time. We're coming to the end of the program. I want to quickly mention that we're going to be on the air for a second hour, so please stay on the line. We'll continue to answer your questions off air, and we'll broadcast that at a later date. Keith and Sean, I have enjoyed being with you, and I'm looking forward to being with you for one more hour on the Bible Answer Man broadcast. So are we, Hank. Thank you. Well, we hope we've answered your questions on Scientology, this dangerous cult, starred by L. Ron Hubbard. And of course, if you have any more questions about Scientology, as Hank mentioned, we'll continue to take your calls off the air for another hour. Also, you may write us at Box 500, San Juan Capistrano, California, and our zip code is 92693. Thank you for joining us today, and be sure and join us again on the next Bible Answer Man program. I'm Mike Stevens, and on behalf of President Hank Hanegraaff and the entire CRI staff, we thank you for joining us today. Via satellite from Southern California, the Christian Research Institute presents the Bible Answer Man, the nationwide radio broadcast that examines today's religious movements and gives reasons for faith. For decades, this program has been giving believers and non-believers alike solid defenses and biblically-based answers about the Christian faith. We've also been using it as a beacon of warning about the counterfeit Christs, false prophets, and destructive heresies that the Bible mentions. And so it is with all of the outreaches of the Christian Research Institute, whether by radio broadcast, cassette tape, or printed material, we offer information on cults, world religions, heretical teachings, and other spiritual counterfeits, so that we in the body of Christ may be more aware of them and be more effective in reaching their members with the true gospel. If you'd like a copy of our resource catalog, which lists all of the primary materials we have to offer, just write us and ask for it. We'll send it to you free of charge. Here's our address, the Christian Research Institute, or CRI, Post Office Box 500, San Juan Capistrano, California, 92693. Yesterday we had the opportunity of being joined in studio by Keith and Sean Scott, two former Scientologists, providing insight into this dangerous non-Christian cult, especially in light of the recent Time Magazine cover story. We'll take more of your calls as they are with us in studio today, discussing Scientology with Hank Hanegraaff. That's right, Mike. In fact, it's not often that we have someone on for two shows in a row, but I think this is a show which is very important. There's information that is indispensable for people across the United States and Canada, that Keith and Sean Scott can give from the perspective of being inside of Scientology. I reminded our studio audience yesterday that Paul said that savage wolves would come in among the flock, they wouldn't spare the flock, and he told us to be on our guard. He said, remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears. That reminded me of how I could use the word tears as an acrostic for remembering some of the problems with Scientology. We said that T stands for Thetans, the E, engrams, and the E-meter, the A, auditing, R, reincarnation, and S, Scientology. If you didn't get that, you'll have to get yesterday's tape because I don't have time to go over it right now. We're going to take a lot of calls from our listeners. Before we get to that, I want to welcome Keith and Sean back to our broadcast studios. Hi, Hank. It's good to be back again with you. Thanks. Listen, you guys have been a blessing to so many people, and yet, how did you really get nurtured in the Christian faith? What happened to you after you got out of Scientology? Well, after you get out of a cult, Hank, you really feel spiritually raped. My reaction was to become hard inside in my heart, and I didn't want to accept anything. I was just going to be my own man. I was not going to listen to any doctrine of anything above all the Bible that was on my list. Sean, on the other hand, where she was working, a person started witnessing to her, answering questions that Sean had, and she came home and started reading the Bible. I said, Sean, that's the worst cult of everything. The whole world is screwed up because of the Bible. She said, I know you feel that way, but I just want to read it and learn for myself. She started reading it. I saw a change in her, Hank, that was just unbelievable. After all the experience of Scientology, she started becoming more of a person, relating to the family better, and just peace and joy. I saw her experience that. I said, Hey, I've got to read what you're reading, too. I think I read Romans. I couldn't believe what happened to me after I read Romans. It just pierced my heart. I saw what Christ had done for us, what he wanted for us, as Paul was explaining. I just said, God, I need that. I've got to have that in my life. That's how we became saved. Even after we became saved, we wanted to learn more. Sean, at work, also had some Mormons at work, and they were very anxious to share with us their Christian faith. We said, Are you Christians? They said, Sure. We sat through four lessons with some elders from the Mormon church until we sort of realized, Hey, this sounds like a cult of some sort. Sean got a book, researched it a little bit, and said, This is a cult. Then a friend of mine at work was in Jehovah's Witness. He was going to offer me a Bible study. I met with him three or four times. Even though we had accepted Christ, we were being bombarded with false doctrine everywhere we turned. We were just crying out, Where can we learn what this Bible has for us? I know we should read it, but we wanted to have fellowship, too, with Christians. So, you were immediately bombarded with people who said they had more truth for you, but the real thing you needed to do was get into the Word of God, not let someone else tell you what the Word said, but you had to read it for yourself and discern the difference between truth and error. One thing, one verse that became a real cornerstone for me in my search for a Christian church to attend is in Colossians, chapter 2, verse 8, 9, and 10, where it says, See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form, and in him you have been made complete, and he is the head over all rule and authority. When we'd be approached by the Mormons that I used to work with and the Jehovah's Witness Keith worked with, the real key thing was that it had to have more than Christ. There was always an additive or a takeaway from this very verse that in Christ you have it all. So we thought, well, to be safe, we'll watch TBN. We'll watch Channel 40 because that is a Christian TV program. Hank, when I first started listening to it, I learned a lot of good things and I was just sort of accepting everything, but after a few months I noticed I was getting depressed and I didn't feel good at all. I was getting confused and I went and talked to my pastor. I said, I'm listening to Channel 40 and I'm starting to be confused about who Jesus is or sin and everything. And she said, stop watching Channel 40 right now because there will be something good and then right behind it there will be something error, a wrong teaching. And when you're young you can't discern it. So in a sense that was doing more damage than the other things or at least as much because we were being led off into prosperity doctrine. Also we were being offended by the constant pleas for money. We understand that a workman is worth his wages, but these people were teaching that you will achieve all your goals and be prosperous only if you send into their ministry and you must send into their ministry. It was like that became their doctrine. Well we have done shows on the Trinity Broadcasting Network. Obviously you haven't heard them, but we would share your views with regards to that. And so many people when we speak out against Mormonism or the Jehovah's Witnesses will applaud us. When we speak out against some of the things which are taught on the Trinity Broadcasting Network like Jesus wore designer clothes, the apostles were wealthy, giving to get, Adam in the Garden of Eden was an exact duplicate of God and on and on, ad nauseum, ad infinitum. This is something that needs to be spoken out against. One thing too that we noticed was so much of the doctrine, especially the prosperity doctrine, really correlates with what we were taught in Scientology. They had different words for it and a different source of the creation of the idea, but it was so similar that it just smacked of untruth. That's why I'm very thankful for CRI Hank and I'll just tell you right to your face that without this program and your organization a lot of people would be walking in darkness today and through your efforts people are learning about who Jesus really is and then enjoying the fullness of that. Well I hope those of you who listen to us and support us will recognize that all of us need to get back to the basics. We need to know what we believe and why we believe it. We need to understand essential Christian doctrine and we don't need to deviate on peripheral issues, but on the essentials we cannot afford to deviate because when we do, we're off into the kingdom of the cults. Well I know that there are so many people like yesterday that want to talk directly to you, so I'm going to go to the phone lines and talk to Linda in Anaheim, California on KKLA. Linda, before you speak let me say that I've got a speaking engagement about three hours from here and I've got to get there in two hours and forty-five minutes, so I'm going to have to run, but I'm going to leave this broadcast in the capable hands of Mike Stevens. Mike, I've appreciated your work and one of the nice things is I know that I can leave and the broadcast is in better hands than when I was here. Well now the pressure is on me so I'm going to leave. Linda, you're on the air. Hi. Hi. I just want to thank you guys for all the work that you've been doing. You've just been a really valuable asset and especially this. I have to tell you, thank your guests. I have never gone as far as they went in Scientology. I was brought in through an ad in the paper for a receptionist and so I thought well you know this is a great opportunity this sounds interesting so I went in and had an interview and of course got hired right on the spot. Did you make any money? No. I didn't think so. That was the one thing that got me out of it because my husband at the time kept going, well where's your paycheck? And I go, well I'm not sure. I'm not sure where my paycheck was going. And what you said about how they bring you in on gradual and at first it seemed very acceptable, very scientific and very bright and everything like that and I'm just fortunate that the Lord always had his hand on me and I remember first in the beginning because I had some questions and I said well I'm a Christian, is there any problem with that? And he said no we're not a religion. And as I think back on that I'm going yeah they're saying they're not a religion but yet for tax purposes they say they're a church. Wait a minute, one of them has got to be wrong, right? That's right. fortunately because of what had happened of them not paying me on a continual basis and my husband and I really needed money Rudy just said I'm sorry honey you have to quit and I mean I'm just glad I did. I'm glad that the Lord had his hand on me and I'm a full-fledged Jesus-loving Christian right now. Praise God. Linda you know I want to say additionally besides the progressive truths that Scientology puts out there's also the factor that once you get in and you become involved to any degree you can't really think about leaving without also considering that you're going to give up all of your Scientology friends and all of that which has become familiar to you and that's one of the reasons that some people don't get out. For me I stayed a lot longer than I would have because I feared that I would lose my husband, that I would lose all my friends, the place where I was living I would lose, the job that I had, the time I would lose and a lot of people don't want to make that kind of a sacrifice. Luckily and thankfully from God I didn't lose my husband but I did lose everything else. Well you know I mean what we lose in the world you know God replaces. Amen. Yeah that's true. Amen. Amen. Thank you Linda for calling. Thank you for your encouragement. Thank you very much Linda. Now I've got a question for you Keith and Sean. Now she was mentioning that she answered a classified ad for a job. Is that typical of the way Scientology works? It didn't used to be when we were involved they didn't used to run ads like that but I think that is one of their ways now to pull people in is they offer different types of positions through any local newspaper. They don't say though that you don't have to make any money. It sounds like what I like to call a backdoor technique. They don't come out and tell you that they are from the church of Scientology but they use other tactics like that. Well let's go to our next caller Karen in Sacramento California listening on KFIA. Karen you're on the air. Hello. Hi Karen. I'm glad I got on. My brother has been in Scientology and my sister-in-law for about 15 or 18 years. I have been really thinking about them a lot lately and of course this article that was out by Time magazine just with hair raising but that made me think about whether or not if I wrote to them or called them would I be putting them in any kind of trouble or danger. Well are they on staff somewhere Karen? Yes they are. Where? In the gold. It's in L.A. In Hemet on Highway 89. Oh. Hmm. I don't know I didn't know about that organization there. That's a pretty elite area that particular organization. They all sleep you know in a dorm or something. Well they're very isolated but it's true. Are you on good terms with them Karen right now? Well my brother and I we've never been very close and the last about 4 or 5 years he hasn't even come home for Christmas. He used to come home for Christmas but he's just not able to get off the job. Well Karen just as a way of trying to help and it is so hard to unbrainwash somebody who is brainwashed but try to reestablish that family blood tie that you have. I know you're praying for him continue that but maybe as a goal try writing and starting working up to the point of getting him to come home for Christmas this year. Say it's been so long let's get you home and just pray that at that opportunity you're calling from where Karen? Sacramento. Sacramento. Well you know maybe we could talk I could talk to him on the phone when he gets home for Christmas. I mean I would be happy to do that and off the air we can give you a way of reaching us. But maybe as a goal to say let's get him home for Christmas this year. Let's really get him back in touch with the family because he's going through hell there. He really is. But he's so isolated what's he going to do? He's out in Hamlet and that's way out in the middle of nowhere too. So his whole life is wrapped up in it and a friendly kind voice from you, a letter full of love and an invitation to come home that Christmas might really be the ticket to start something happening along with the prayers. I did write him a couple of nice long letters and sent pictures of his niece and nephew and I started that. It's been a couple months since I have and he doesn't respond. Yeah that's typical. I don't even know if he gets the letters sometimes. He might not. I always have suspected that there's times when he didn't get them because they had him first. Well if the Lord's put him on your heart, pursue him as best you can by phoning, more letters and just the invitation because if he can get out of the situation there for a little while he might have a chance to reevaluate where his life is going and that might be a start. With the letters I shouldn't mention anything about like say the articles. I wouldn't mention that while you're trying to reestablish contact. Okay. Be really friendly and really excited to hear about what he's doing and how he's doing. Okay. Thanks for calling Karen. Thank you, Sean. Thank you, Karen. And now to our next caller, Mark, listening on KELP in El Paso, Texas. You're on the air. Yeah. Thanks, Mike. I'd like to really thank Keith and Sean for the work they're doing. I used to be a minister in Scientology. As a matter of fact, I was introduced to Scientology in Portland, Oregon. Yeah. To help build the mission on Sutter Street in San Francisco. I was one of those guys that ran around the streets passing out the free personality test. I did time doing that. So it was you, huh? I'd take them up in the office and tell them how screwed up they were and that they really needed some help and they needed to take the communications course. After that, I became a public recruitment secretary and would try to get them to take further courses, auditing, all this sort of thing. I just praise God that I'm out of it. I'm just the author and finisher of my faith. He pulled me out of Scientology. I just plead the blood of Jesus over you, Keith, and you, Shawn. Thank you. No weapon formed against you shall prosper. That's right. Also, one thing I didn't see in Scientology is I didn't see a lot of mercy, being a staff member. Amen to that. I didn't see a lot of mercy or compassion. Mercy is pretty unheard of there. What's that? Mercy is pretty unheard of there. Oh, yeah. It's very ruthless and some of the techniques they would use on people to get them to get money, more money, money, money. One of the things I see about Scientology is that at that time before I got out of it, which was around 10 or 11 years ago, it only went up to this level of OT7. Now they've got OT8 and I guess they're going to unleash up to, who knows, OT90. I don't know what they're going to do, but it's constantly more and more and more and more money. That's right. I didn't read the Time Magazine article about 17,000, but that's really a low estimate because I've seen people spend 50,000 and 100,000 dollars on Scientology. Oh, easily. Mark, thanks for your call and your testimony. I love the Lord and He is God. I'd like to just say one thing. I know you have some more calls coming in, but it says that in Matthew 28, 18, it says, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. It wasn't given to L. Ron Hubbard or to Scientology. That's right. You know, Mark, one thing that I noticed when I was trying to reach out to Christ and receive what He had for me was the idea of grace. In Scientology, whatever you have happened to you, good or bad, you've pulled it in, basically, according to your behavior and your works. And to be able to open my hand to a free gift of God, the salvation from His Son, it's just the hardest thing to unlearn the idea that you have to work for it, you have to earn it, you have to put out the right vibes. Postulates. I wonder, did you have trouble with that? No. No. a little bit more information about Golden Era Studios. I heard from another caller that you weren't too familiar with it. However, I live in Hemet and I drive by Golden Era Studios every day. And they are opening a new golf course soon. They have open houses every Sunday from three to five p.m. They're trying to bring the community in on it. And I was just wondering if you could shed any light about Golden Era Studios. Mark, it sounds like you know more about it than I do. It's just another one of their front groups it sounds like. But you know, Mark, it could really be helpful. God's put you there in that city. To alert the city council and the mayor of Hemet that hey, this is a group that looks like something on the outside but on the inside. I know this group is a Scientologist. Send them the Time Magazine article. We can send you some information about it. And maybe you could start a grassroots level to say let's not embrace these guys. Let's expose them for what they're really trying to do. Yeah. Also, they have a large ship on their yard or in their complex. And of course, I see people in Navy dress blues and dress whites depending on the season. And I was wondering if you could shed some light on that. Well, those people are C-Organization members. Those are the staff members of Scientology that, believe it or not, have signed a billion-year contract to work for Scientology. That's a B with a billion. And they're trying to be very dedicated and help further the cause of Scientology any way they can. We've been joined in studio today by two former Scientologists, Keith and Sean Scott. Many of you have also heard Keith and Sean on Focus on the Family today sharing many of the same thoughts that they shared with us today. Earlier, Hank was hosting the program and had to head out, and now it looks as though you also have to leave, Keith and Sean, but thanks again for joining us. We'll take more of your open calls during the second half. Joining us will be Ken Samples and Rob Bowman. Right now, we're coming up to a station break. For those of you staying with us, we'll be right back with the second half of today's Bible Answer Man program. 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