The video is the first of three phone messages by Revival God's Way, Revival Crane. Revival Crane is known for his powerful preaching and singing. In this message, he discusses the importance of the local church and how it plays a role in revival. He emphasizes the need for believers to come together and support one another in their faith. The video also mentions that Revival Crane has written books and is appreciated by many listeners.

This is side two of the Redpath-Ravenhill cassette featuring discussions with Dr. Alan Redpath and Leonard Ravenhill, first heard on the Chapel of the Air radio broadcast. In just a moment, you'll hear the first of three interviews with Leonard Ravenhill, author, preacher, and senior revivalist. Again, these programs are being presented exactly as they aired to give you the opportunity to hear David Maine's words of introduction. David Maine's greeting you, my friend. Through the years, it's been my privilege to interview many guests during these 15-minute get-togethers, but few have been as appreciated by our listeners as my guest again this visit, Leonard Ravenhill. Stay tuned, will you please, for the Chapel of the Air. Leonard Ravenhill is probably best known for his books on revival, such as Why Revival Terry's, Revival God's Way, Revival Praying, but he's also appreciated by many of you for his powerful preaching on that same theme. Now, this is the first of three phone line visits with Leonard Ravenhill, during which time I want to talk with him first about the local church, next our seminaries, and finally about religion as seen and heard on television and radio. Leonard Ravenhill, on a scale of one to ten, give the church in North America a grade, will you, and tell why you picked that number. Brother David, on a scale of one to ten, I would give the church, that is, I'm thinking of the evangelical church, about a four, because I sense a lack of eternity and the majesty of God in current evangelism, and that reacts, of course, in the church. Leonard, say you were assigned to make a winner out of the church, or change that four into an eight or a nine. You're the new coach. What are you going to strive to correct or change? Well, again, we need to have a recovery, I'm sure, of the awesome majesty of God. I asked a congregation last Sunday, did you come here tonight to meet God or to hear a sermon about God? I've asked that many times in many churches, and only once did I get a response from a person who said, well, I do come to meet God. Leonard, when you go somewhere, you bring that presence of the Lord with you. How important a role is the minister going to play in a rebuilding process of the local church? Well, I think an awesome responsibility rests on the pastor. There's a saying, as you know, that a river never rises higher than its source, and normally the pastor is the, to change the figure, the top banana on the pile, and I think that he forms the spiritual culture of the church. If he's a praying man, you have a praying church, and if he's a politician, he'll mix up with the crowd and say, the moral majority of somebody is going to pull the nation out of the fire, which I'm sure it isn't. I mean, Jesus himself said that the spirit of the Lord is upon him, and he was anointed to preach. I miss the anointed preaching. How would you recommend that ministers spend their priority time? Would it be in counseling or in fundraising or in praying or preparing sermons? Brother David, I would say they need to reread historic revival. I don't believe there are a dozen people in America that have ever seen a revival. I mean, revival that closes the shops and stops the traffic, so to speak, and the lights of the sanctuary don't go out for a month or so. What kind of a book would you recommend such a minister read? There's a book written in 1604 by a man by the name of William Gurnall, and it's called The Whole Armor of God. It's on the last few verses in Ephesians 6. It costs $26, but if they sent a Trinity book service a month there in New Jersey, you can get it for $16. It's 1140 pages. Even Spurgeon said it was the most amazing thing that every preacher should read it. And then I would recommend, of course, to help recover a concept of the majesty of God, that they would read The Existence and Attributes of God by Stephen Charnock. You see, we've no massive theology today. I don't agree with what old Karl Barth said by a long way, but he said, I look for something vast in theology, and all I find is paperbacks. Leonard Ravenhill, do you see most ministers agreeing with what you're saying, or do you feel they will resist what you're saying? Well, I think it's almost 50-50, Brother David. It depends on the man, if he realizes he has the most awesome task. I mean, to me, preaching a sermon is more dramatic and challenging and stirring and responsible than doing open-heart surgery. Well, aren't we really doing open-heart surgery in evangelism? Yes. You see, again, I think evangelism today is the biggest enemy of revival. You need to explain what you mean by that. Well, it's so shallow. I thought before we hear the narrative that was written by Jonathan Edwards. You know, the great revival of 1735 was not staged. Jonathan Edwards could have said, we'll wait, because in two weeks' time, George Whitefield, the greatest preacher since the Apostle Paul, is coming to America. He didn't do that. He preached. It was in the only course of preaching in the spring of 1735 that the Holy Ghost fell on the meetings. Remember up to that time, Brother David, there had been no public invitations given by a pastor to come forward and accept Christ. It says here, the Puritan preachers kind of agreed together, and they feared more than anything else the sin of plucking unripe fruit. They were afraid of sham converts in their ministry. They were afraid that in their zeal for souls, they might lead people into false procession of Christ and thus be the means of their damnation, rather than their salvation. I say again, you see, Spurgeon, the greatest servant in his day, never once in the 20 years he preached made an altar call. He was followed by Dr. A.C. Dickson, and he made an altar call. And one of the press reporters said to him afterwards, well, Mr. Spurgeon was here all those years, and he never once made an altar call. He said to people, if you're anxious about your soul, meet me in my office early tomorrow morning. And if you don't get in in the morning session, come in the afternoon. And a reporter says, in his long and varied ministry in London, it was the usual thing for there to be a steady procession of inquirers to the office from early morning Monday right through the entire day. Well, A.C. Dickson was asked, why did he do it? A.C. Dickson said, I believe in striking while the iron is hot. A reporter said, well, if you told that to Mr. Spurgeon, he would have said, Dr. Dickson, if the iron is hot at 8 Sunday night, it will still be hot if it's the Holy Ghost the next morning. But you see, we're just plucking unripe fruit. If we could get one of these computers to tell us how many decisions have been made in evangelism in the last 10 years, everybody in the nation has been converted about twice. But there's no abiding fruit, or hardly any. How do you think we can turn things around as it relates to evangelism in the local church? Well, I preached a week last Friday night to my student body on, hell has no exits. I reread the 16th chapter of Luke, and it's awesome. We've lost sight of hell because we've lost sight of the holiness of God. And they're two sides of one coin as far as I'm concerned. Leonard Ravenhill, by what standards do you want churches to be judged? Do you want them to be judged by buildings? Because certainly that's a very high success rate in America. Congregation sizes seem to be high, budgets are high, and so on. What would you judge the congregation by? I would judge it by its holiness. By the character, I would go around the community and say what kind of people come from so-and-so church. You see, another thing that's lost, Brother David, you know as well as I do, the weakest thing in any church is the prayer meeting. I don't know a thing about automobiles. I don't know a thing about 18-wheeler trucks, but I do know they don't run on Volkswagen motors. And we're trying to run 10,000 and 20,000 membership churches with about 50 or 60 at the prayer meeting. What would be your challenge to church people in a congregation like that? What would you preach? I would preach Isaiah 6, verses 5, 7, and 9, woe, lo, go. Help us with that a little because some people aren't acquainted with Isaiah chapter 6. Well, Isaiah 6 is in the year that King Uzziah died. The background is 2 Chronicles chapter 26, which gives a summary of this young man who took over a nation at 16, and he ruled it for 50 years. In that time, he recovered the economy. He reorganized the army. He had many inventions. He did many, many marvelous things. It says, while he was humble, God was with him. But then he got proud, and he decided that he would take over the church, too. And today, to me, the church is almost entirely Babylonish. Over 100 years ago, Andrew Bonner, the great hymn writer in Scotland, said, I look for a church, and I found it in the world. I look for the world, and I found it in the church. Go back to your phrases. You started with woe, and what was the second word? Lo, in verse 7 and verse 9. The first is a word of a man, woe. The second is a word of a seraphim, lo. And the third is the word of God, go. It's a vision of height. I saw the Lord high. It's a vision of death. He saw into the abyss of his own nature. It's a vision of breath. He saw a lost world. It was an upward vision of deity. It was an inward vision of depravity. It was an outward vision of duty. It was an upward vision of holiness. He saw the holy, holy, holy God. The seraphim, the only time they're mentioned in Scripture, they were not singing almighty or omnipotent. They were not singing about the attributes of God. They were singing about the nature of God. He's holy, holy, holy. If you divide that marvelous book, there are 66 books in the Bible. There are 66 chapters in Isaiah. The Bible is divided at book 39, Malachi. And Isaiah is divided at chapter 39. In the first section of the book, there are 12 references to God, the Holy One. In the second half of the book, there are 17 references to a holy God. David, when you last go to church and tiptoe out of the sanctuary, overwhelmed by the holiness of God, do you think Leonard Ravenhill, that the average church person today, would say with Isaiah, I am a man of unclean lips? They wouldn't say that. They come to the altar for help, for blessing, for this. If everybody honestly, with heart searching, bowed before God and said, woe is me, I'm undone, I'm unclean. My prayer life is undone. My life is undone totally. I have no discipline in my life. But we just go from Sunday to Sunday and we're blessed because we tithe and the meeting is nice. We don't expect an invasion of divine power. But it's going to come, I'm sure of that. You say it's going to come. I'm sure. I feel that same way, Leonard. May our thoughts be correct in God's sight. It's going to take an immense change though, isn't it? Yes, but you see, the last two years I was on the road, I tried to get together a new prayer meeting. Usually, say, Friday night from 9 o'clock till midnight to pray for local revival. After all, we can amass all we like, Brother David. We can talk about humanism, communism, this-ism and the other-ism. There's only one obstruction to revival, and that's uncleanness in the church. We're undone and we're unholy. They all want to quote Joel, too, that God will pour out His Spirit, but nobody wants to lay prostrate between the altar and the doorpost in chapter 1 of Joel. And that's the formula for revival. We don't need to write books. I know I've written them. But you see, the price is too high and the cost is too great, and the humiliation is too deep. And the acknowledgement is so embarrassing to say we do have big churches. I think they're like a man in England years ago was asked how big his church was. He said it's three miles wide and one inch deep. Huh. Yeah, your words are well taken. Thank you for visiting, Leonard. Tomorrow our discussion will be about schools or seminaries where our ministering people are trained. But right now we need to stop. This visit I'm going to ask Leonard Ravenhill to describe the kind of ministers we need to be able to impact this present society. And what about our seminaries? Are they producing these kinds of men and women? Leonard Ravenhill, as most of you know, is a writer, preacher, and senior revivalist whose heart is still aflame for the Lord. Stay tuned as we visit, will you, in the Chapel of the Air. David Maines greeting you, my friend. If you're one of the few who's not familiar with Leonard Ravenhill's long and effective ministry, well, you should be. Here are some of his book titles. Why Revival Terry's. America is Too Young to Die. Meat for Men. And Revival God's Way. Now yesterday we talked together by the phone lines about the church. Tomorrow we'll discuss radio and television ministries. And today, right now, we'll get Leonard Ravenhill to look at the schools that train our ministers. Leonard, of all the men under whom you have trained, formal or informal, which one influenced you the most? Well, without question. Samuel Chadwick. I happen to be born in a kid of the night sparse and close. And again, it was only in the course of his... Which, by the way, was the same, Brother David. The great awakening of 1725 came in the ordinary course of a faithful pastor's ministry. That was Jonathan Edwards. He could have held up and said, George Ritzi is coming into town soon. But there was no staging of anything. There was no projecting human personalities. It was just the Holy Ghost came. That was also true, Leonard Ravenhill, of the Second Great Awakening. The influence of that awakening in the early 1800s was all pastors. Pastors faithfully preaching the Word of God. When people talk about pastors, though, we back it up a step and say, what about the seminaries that train the pastors? If you taught a course in one of our key seminaries here in North America, what subject would you want to teach that course on? Well, I would take historic revival. I mean, I'm sometimes accused of being anti-intellectual. But the great Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones, in his great church there opposite Westminster Abbey, he talked with me about revival. And he said he believed that Jonathan Edwards was the greatest intellectual America ever had. And yet he was a man we know. There are still 500 of his sermons extant. And everybody reminds me of the fact, well, he was a gravel-voiced, angry-looking man who preached sinners into the hands of an angry good. But out of 500 sermons, that's the only sermon on the wrath of God. Most of them are on love. And he's like all the other great men. I've got the data before me. But while he did pour out fire and brimstone, in his closet he lay on his belly groaning and weeping and weeping and weeping. And Jonathan Edwards wept. I don't see preachers weeping today. And I go to conferences and I have an intellectual display. Just theological fireworks. But they don't leave anything behind. One of the interesting things when I read the sermons of Jonathan Edwards, or a person like Charles Finney, they're very specific as to what needs to change in terms of God's people's lives. They name what the sins are. They talk in terms of holiness. And they always seem to hold that up against the majesty of a God who in his perfection and love wants to draw us to a higher standard of living. Leonard, do you think it's easier to capture the hearts of young prospective ministers with Revival thoughts or of older more seasoned ministers? I believe if they got a visualization of what true Revival really is. I mean they talk about Revival and they say we're starting Revival next Sunday night at 8 and finishing the following Sunday night. Well who tells the Holy Ghost when to come and when to go? The least aspect of teaching on the Holy Spirit today as far as I'm concerned, Brother David, is when he's come he will convict of sin. A farmer doesn't expect to plow up the fallow ground, sow the seed, water the seed, and reap a harvest in half an hour. But the evangelist does. And there's a time factor. I mean in natural birth there's conception, gestation, and birth. And we've got that in Revival. There isn't a Revival without being preceded by agonizing prayer and intercession and sacrifice. But we don't know a thing about that. We're such a flabby, flippant age. Yes, that's very much characteristic of who we are and it's sad. Yes. It can be verified that prior to earlier awakenings, seminary students got together to study the history of Revivals like you mentioned before. Yes. Do you see this as something that should be repeated and maybe will be repeated in some of our schools? Well I mean they don't know anything about that. And then when they left it, taverns were cleared up. There's a historic church there in Rochester, New York. There's a plaque in the ground. I saw it that Charles G. Finney was here. I think it was six months. And 100,000 people in this town were born again. And we baptize people and they don't show any fruit for repentance. You see there's an intellectualism now. I think there's a humanism in our seminaries. We can do it with this, that, and the other. I was reading of Blaise Pascal. Do you know him? Yes. Well he was a wonder man as far as I'm concerned through the ages. He broke all records for intellectualism. And then it says of him, at an age when other men hardly began to see the light, he had completed the circle of human sciences and was aware of their nothingness and so he turned his thoughts to religion. And it was he I believe who first said that religion is the queen of the sciences. Well if that's true, then holiness is the crown on the head of the queen. It's time to blow out of the sky this humanism. I mean where are we now with it? I can remember World War I starting, the 4th of August 1914. Right before that there was a group of people called the Fabian Socialists which was headed up by H.G. Wells and George Bernard Shaw and some of the cynics. And they said at that time, this is before World War I, it's possible to have a new world order by intellectual and psychological processes. We believe in the adequacy of materialism and the inevitability of progress. But by 1939 when World War II came, H.G. Wells wrote his book Mind at the end of its tether. And he'd given up in despair on the human society. What have we got with all this humanism and freedom? Crowded jails, venereal disease, this horrible disease of AIDS, and more divorces than ever we've had. I put it all into the church and I lay it all at the feet of the preachers. And that's why very often they don't like me. I think a lot of preachers do like you, Leonard Ravenhill, at least your openness and your directness. You've been talking about intellectualism. Are academics or studies and religious fervor at odds with each other or can they be wed together? Well I'm just looking at my library here, Brother David. Wesley was a tremendous intellectual, his brother. You know, he wrote many hymns, in fact he wrote 6,000. You see, I believe two arguments the devil has with people. One is they're so good they don't need to be saved. On the other hand, they're so bad they can't be saved. And I think we've almost implied that every man in church is running around with another woman and everybody else has some secrecy. I think it's time to say, David, with a trumpet voice, that Jesus Christ did not come into the world to make bad men good. He came into the world to make dead men live. And there are lots of men, I know all men are bad, but they're not all fooling around with sins. I know ungodly men who won't have a TV in their home. They say it damages the minds of children. But on the other hand, you've got towering intellectuals, well, Matthew Henry and all these commentators. I mean, I listen Sunday morning usually to Dr. Criswell. He's one that lasted the line, I think. He's a brilliant preacher. He quotes his Greek without any ostentation and tears run down his face when he talks about the coming of the Lord and the glory of heaven and the majesty of God. I was thinking of that event of Isaiah. When Newsday went into the temple, they tried to stop him, but he went in and he was smitten with leprosy. He went into the holy place, the holy of holies, where only the priest was allowed to go. Well, Julius Caesar had a son-in-law by the name of Pompey, and Pompey went to Jerusalem because they told him that God was there. He went into the court of the temple. He went through the Gentile court. He went through the court of women. He went into the holy place, and then he slashed his way through the curtain into the holy of holies, which was pitch black, and he screamed out, God isn't here, God isn't here. Well, now, instead of those different courts, Isaiah, if youngsters come to our church, they have to get through the outer court, which is the tennis court. They have to get through the next court, which is the volleyball court. They have to get through the next court, which is the racquetball court, and they get to the sanctuary, and God isn't there. There's no sense of God's majesty. They don't see a preacher trembling as he talks about the awful destiny of men and women. Leonard, can the touches on a man's life you're talking about, can they be learned in a classroom, or do they have to be learned in some other place? They could be learned in a classroom. I'd like to have sat in a class, wouldn't you, with the apostle Paul? I mean, his passion never varied. And I think if a man is eternity conscious, he's going to leave students eternity conscious. That's why I like to listen to Samuel Trandering. I had a popular preacher in my office here the other week. He said, you talk a lot about the Puritans, lots of difference between them and us. They said they lived in eternity, but we don't. We're earthbound. Our preacher's not eternity conscious, David. I agree with you. Lord, help me to be eternity conscious. I pray that often, not just to make more broadcasts. Are seminaries, Leonard, and Bible schools places where revival fires could touch down? Absolutely. Absolutely. But, well, they think I'm erratic, you know. I don't obey all the laws of homiletics. And what have you got? I went to one famous college, and afterwards the teacher of homiletics said, Wave News shattered every law of homiletics. But the president of the college said, I've never been as moved as when you preached on holiness and the majesty of God. And I've got a bunch of men driving seven hours this coming Friday night. They're driving seven hours to come to the prayer meeting from half past seven till half past ten and a seven hour trip back. Why do they have to come five, six hundred miles, seven hundred miles to a prayer meeting? They pass a thousand churches in between. But they're all locked up. There's no passion. There's no vision. Oh, for the day when those churches are alive with the fire of the Lord. That's what we're praying for, isn't it? I agree. Yes, I agree. And my prayer has been that this visit would be more than just a time of interesting questions and answers, and the Spirit has answered that prayer. We want Him to reveal His presence now through the whole of His church in this land and as soon as can be. Well, thank you so much. We'll visit again tomorrow about ministries on radio and television. Religious radio and television. Is it good or bad? What do you think? And what do your friends think? My own feeling is that it's a mixed bag. I'm David Maynes. But this visit I'm more interested in hearing the views of Leonard Ravenhill on this topic of religious radio and television. Leonard Ravenhill has been my guest our past two visits and is once again today in the Chapel of the Air. Hi, good friend, and welcome. I'm sure Leonard Ravenhill is not a stranger to most of you. Through the years, he's been my guest a number of times here in the Chapel of the Air. But of course, Leonard Ravenhill is best known for his many books on revival, such as America is Too Young to Die, Revival God's Way, Meat for Men, and so on. And how privileged I am to again have him on the Chapel of the Air phone line. Leonard Ravenhill, do you have early memories of preachers using radio or television in a powerful and positive fashion? We hadn't much in England, but... When did you first come to the United States preaching? I came first in 1950. I went to Bethany Fellowship in Minneapolis. Yes, and by that time, radio had already had quite a long life over here in terms of religious things. Has religious radio or television ever stimulated you in a positive way in your spiritual life? Well, I must admit very, very little because, I mean, the stuff that's offered is so shallow. I mean, I guess this is true. If John the Baptist preached on radio one Sunday, would he get on the next Sunday? He probably wouldn't, would he? Or Elijah? Yeah. I know from some of your early writings that you saw dangers in the possible misuse of the religious media. Some of those early books, you commented on this. Now, through the years, have these fears proven to have been unfounded, or have some of them come true? Well, you know, they said Finney inspired countless pastors and evangelists to seek revival. Finney's theory encouraged some who fancied that they could produce revival anywhere using means they should use. And then a writer here says by motivated men of God was usually productive, but used by worldly operators, it produced promotional evangelism, manipulated, sensationalized, commercial. I think that falls over Brother David in asking what I think of, well, particularly TV evangelism today. I find people just totally revolted against the begging that goes on. I mean, why should a man that has an income of $15,000 a year, for instance, and struggling to keep his son or his family together, why should he send a tithe to a man who has $55,000 a year and all expenses paid? I think it's immoral. I mean, in the old stories in England, Robin Hood, he robbed the rich to help the poor. Now he robbed the poor to help the rich. These big fellows live in ostentation and they have private jets and other expensive means of transport. I think that most of these big ministries are filthy with filthy lucre. And I used to say, David, that before long, the Church will suffer for the sin of America. I've turned it around. I believe that America will suffer for the sin of the Church. There's so much extravagance, there's no real praying done about what money should be used. I mean, when you think of when a number of them get almost a million a week coming in, how will they answer the judgment seat for the way they use it? The amount of money is not the problem as much as how it is being accounted for in the stewardship. That's what you're saying. It must be a great thing, too. Yes. Say you were asked, Leonard, to speak for the annual convention of the National Religious Broadcasters and the Lord directed you to accept that invitation. What message might you bring to that group? I believe I'd preach on hell. All the great revivalists were strung on hell. You can take Moody, you can take Finney, you can take Jonathan Edwards. They didn't do it with a barking, horrible, gravel voice. They did it with tears and brokenness, but I don't see any brokenness in tears. Not very much, is there? No. Do you see the expansion of radio and television ministries as possibly enhancing national revival or is maybe it moving against national revival? No, I believe the next revival will come through local churches with men who've been waiting on God. Do you think that religious radio and television has had a strong influence on the local church or has it been minimal? Well, again, it depends what the heartbeat of the preacher is. I mean, your ministry is wonderful. You don't beg for money. You're systematic in teaching, but a lot of this stuff is flashy and I'm amazed how many small little churches now want a TV program. They're bleeding the people to go on TV. What does it do? The air is already choked with radio and TV. But where is a man with a heartbeat? Where is a man with brokenness and tears? I have a feeling we're going back to that statement that you made earlier when you said if John the Baptist were on, he probably wouldn't be on the following week. Is a strong, consistent message like John the Baptist might preach going to be supported by Christian listening and viewing public? I certainly doubt it. I mean, I want to scratch itching ears. That sounds like Scripture, doesn't it? Yeah, and everybody's having seminars. I say I'm going to have a seminar on seminars. I mean, when I read about these men, like Jonathan Edwards or Whitfield, preaching in the open air, starting with a small crowd of 5,000, and within a week, without any hype, without any publicity, when people have to walk or ride on horseback, getting 30,000 a night. And Whitfield could get 7,000 or 8,000 to 10,000 people at 5 o'clock in the morning in London, England. There's not many in Los Angeles can. We've got to have nice, comfortable hotel rooms or auditoriums. But when there's a hunger for God, there'll be a breakthrough in all that stuff. I'm sure of that. There isn't that hunger, although I have a sense that it's beginning to build among the common folk. I hope I'm right. Well, Brother David, that's why I get men coming, not only from all over America, but an awful lot of young preachers now, not satisfied. I've got a list of 10 books they should read, and I give it to them. And one of them, of course, is Girmel, on the whole armor of God. And the other two are The Attributes and Existence of God by Charnock. And I say, shut yourself up for the winter. Forget about TV. Discipline your life. Go to bed at a certain time. Get up at a certain time. All the great men of God, I can find, Brother David, have been men of discipline. And we have no discipline today, not even in the ministry. Now you've used another strong word, discipline. And we're back to an area where we're wondering whether people are going to respond to us or not. Can we talk about things like discipline and see individuals coming along and saying, thank you so much. This is exactly what I need to hear. I believe we can, David, if we give them goals. How is it these kids who get up at 4 o'clock in the morning and work and labor seven, eight hours a day for a gold medal? Another four years ahead, they'll do it. Why can't we get young people to see eternity in their life and discipline themselves and in their reading? I feel very strongly about what you're saying. I affirm your words. In fact, when I travel, I think of myself often as saying, I have the privilege now of coming and representing the marvelous kingdom of God here. Here is the kingdom representative who has arrived and he's going to share the very words of God with you people. Do you sense that in your own ministry as well? Yes. Yeah, it's a wonderful, wonderful privilege, isn't it? It's an awesome privilege. I think it can be a part of radio and television as well. I believe it can. I'm absolutely sure of that. What message is it that you would preach if you were given more opportunity? I know you're aged at this point and I know you can't do that regularly but say here was a phenomenal opportunity to preach to God's people by television. Say, what would you preach? I'd certainly go through a good discourse on prayer and give them, of course, scriptural examples and then show them men I don't know why, but men like Braynard, men like Wesley and a whole host of men were up by 4 o'clock in the morning. There's a huge work on Hebrews put out by Creagles and in the preface it says this man finished his devotions by 2 a.m. Barnes who wrote the great commentary on the Bible, he did all his work between 5 a.m. and 8 o'clock in the morning. One of your problems Leonard Ravenhill is that you have read too much, isn't it? You have read so much about previous days that when you compare this day you see the shallowness of it as it relates to earlier generations. Yes, I'm totally spoiled because I don't believe that Christianity of the day is true Christianity. I believe that as well. And if the house was full of the joy of the Lord, which there's a house I heard this morning they just got a new baby boy are they excited. If we saw people genuinely redeemed, transformed by the grace of God who put off the old life and put on the new life, if they quit their smoking, drinking and fooling and sinning and were totally committed to Jesus Christ we could turn America around. If everybody professing Christianity lived Christianity for one total day we could turn this nation around. Say we have Leonard, in another 5 or 10 years do you see the possibility of the nation turning around or not? I doubt it. We've got 5 people that are colossal, financial colossal. Sometimes those are used to the Lord to draw people back to himself, aren't they? Sometimes the hard times are what brought Israel to her knees. Maybe that's what will bring America to her knees. Well, in one sense yes, but you know, I thought that would happen in World War II, David, but it didn't in England. People went to the big monolith churches that were built like a rock and they told me that they found men and women there in sexual immorality or people drinking or people playing cards. They got between the pews and knew the buildings would hardly come down. You see, the one thing that with God Almighty, I mean, we've tried everything. We've tried miracles. We've tried gifts. Again, the minister of the Holy Spirit is to convict of sin and nobody can do that but the Holy Ghost. War won't do it. Plagues won't do it. I mean, people are frightened now with AIDS. What do they do? They go on sinning. They'll have 3 more years to sin. It's a fascinating thing, isn't it? We could solve the AIDS problem if we would quit our immorality. Leonard, you're always very provocative. If you were on the radio every day, it might be different but whenever you join us as a guest here on the Channel of the Air, though your words are strong, the response is always very, very positive. And I appreciate you joining me. So I thank you. I thank you on behalf of all who will write expressing their thoughts of appreciation for what you've said and for who you are. That brings us to the close of this cassette tape featuring discussions on the subject of spiritual revival with Alan Redpath and Leonard Ravenhill. If you have comments on these interviews that you'd like to share with our Chapel of the Air director, David Mains, I know he'd be pleased to receive your note or letter. We also have a number of other books and tape albums on this subject of revival available through the Chapel office. Just write to us and request our current chapel catalog. Our mailing address is The Chapel of the Air, Box 30, Wheaton, Illinois, 60189. In Canada, our office address is The Chapel of the Air, Box 2000, Waterdown, Ontario, LOR 2HO. We thank you for your interest in this cassette material and also for your prayers and support of this outreach. We're daring to believe that you share our concern for another great spiritual awakening in this land. Continue to pray with us. And of course, we hope that you'll join us often for the daily radio broadcast known as The Chapel of the Air.