I think I've said this else where in another thread, but it bears repeating.

According to some, they experienced 'ecstatic utterance' in tongues when they received the Holy Spirit, but did not speak in tongues again.

I had heard tongues and interpretations for a long time before I first spoke in tongues... and that was two days after being prayed for privately, by the speaker at a conference. He was not praying for me to receive the gift of tongues, but to be delivered from something else. You might not believe this, but I don't know what he was praying for. He didn't tell me, but that's a different discussion.

For you freedbyjc, this is what it felt like. I was on the bus going to work for a late shift, a journey of at least half an hour at lunchtime. Since I'd been prayed for, I'd been singing the same two verses of a hymn, endlessly..... Love of Christ so freely given, grace of God beyond degree, mercy higher than the highest heaven, deeper than the deepest sea.All that thrills my soul is Jesus. He is more than life to me. And the fairest of ten thousand, in my blessed Lord I see. What a wonderful redemption, never can a mortal know, how my sin though red like crimson, can be whiter than the snow. All that thrills my soul is Jesus. He is more than life to me. And the fairest of ten thousand, in my blessed Lord I see.... round and round and round and round.

But, from the depths of my being, these words were trying to break out through my mouth. I knew it was tongues because the urge was so strong and it wasn't the way I felt before I used normal words - but what was I supposed to do with this urge in the present distress - on a bus? I think I put a hand up over my mouth and tried to make sure I didn't shout them, but spoke as quietly as possible. There was NO keeping them in..... and that's how it started. But, it wasn't and isn't always like that. I can pray in tongues whenever I want/need to, since then, till now.

I'd be very surprised if anyone who is in a church meeting when the Lord gives them a tongue (which will require interpretation), does not also have the ability to pray in tongues when they are alone. I have never had to give a tongue in church, but to be honest, until this thread, it never occurred to me that I might not be ABLE to ---- as if the gift I've received is somehow different from the other.

(I should say that over the years, the 'tongue' has changed, sometimes being quite different in character from the one I had used till then. This is nothing to do with me or my mind. The Spirit brings it out like that.)

Personally, I think this is the same 'gift of tongues', used in two different ways, according to the prompting of the Spirit. Many people don't have an opportunity to give a prophecy in tongues 'at church' because there is no time given to that (and other) gifts (such as interpretation), during the main Sunday gathering.... Often the excuse given is that it would upset the people that don't have such gifts..... or is it that the church leadership have no idea how to look after the proceedings when such evidences of the life of God are manifest in the 'members'? Maybe they don't have gifts themselves? (Very embarrassing, if they are seen as some sort of spiritual status symbol.)....

It is a truly remarkable gift, and when I was in dire straights over many months, some years ago, I would put my head in my hands and pray in tongues for ten minutes, to be completely restored from a woman with no strength [i]at all[/i], to one who was able to carry on and finish the day's responsibilities. (I have long believed that prayer can do this, and experienced such refreshings from 'normal' prayer, but in those days I was [u]in extremis[/u], and tongues seemed to reach higher and deeper into God.)

I hope this answers some of your questions?


EDIT: I checked the words of the hymn I'd posted from memory, and have changed 'heart' to 'soul', and 'all' to 'life, in correction.

I loved your testimony Dorcas, truly.

The Spirit of God interceding through us, when we don't know how to pray as we ought, is totally a God Send.

Paul said, I pray in the spirit and I pray with understanding.

There have been times when the Lord would do that during prayer time, so that I would have understanding of what was going on with the heavy burden I was feeling in praying for someone or something.
The 'understanding' opens my eyes to things I was not aware of about the person or thing that I was burdened in prayer for.

I only can disagree with you in that these are two seperate tongues ... as shown in the Greek I posted earlier in this thread.

The only reason I would stress that is because Paul asked, 'Do all speak in tongues ?'

That is the verse that is used by those who do not have the Manifestation of the Spirit Baptism to rule out seeking the Prayer Language for themselves .... to their own loss.

Not loss salvation as falsely taught by some ... but loss of deeper, more Inspired prayer and praise openings. Where the Spirit Himself can speak for us, the things that are hid from us presently and worship in a way that no human can with their own words.
Definitely "not of us" and "all of Him", that way.


God Bless !!!

Hi Annie,

I'm glad you have the Greek at your disposal. And I know you think you've made yourself completely clear, but, I would like to check out that I've completely understood you, because you said you disagreed with me - and I'm not sure what you disagree about.... which may be because I left out something I could have said.

Actually, where we disagree with each other on this, is answered in my post on page one, with the greek in it.
That post would have to be looked at first, to understand where my view is coming from.


All [u]should[/u] have the prayer language, but they need not be 'used' in the 'gift' that needs Interpretation to go with. That is for God to give or use folks in "as He wills".


That is why I posted the word-studies on it, so as to not just give opinion.

OK. I had read the post on p1 a while ago, and it seems to be saying that everyone who has received the baptism in the Holy Spirit, should have a private prayer language. Yet, Paul said 'Do all speak in tongues?'.

I hate to be difficult, but, he is obviously saying that not all have the private prayer language, as much as the gift that needs interpretation....

Am I getting this right?

Yes, you are being difficult :-P . Haaa.

Paul said ... 1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

If you read page one, you'd see the part where the "Manifestation is given to every man" but not all are used in all of the "gifts" and how the gifts of "faith and tongues" differ from the "faith and tongues" [u]given to all[/u].

I hate to be difficult also, but Paul is NOT "obviously saying that not all have the private prayer language, as much as the gift that needs interpretation" ;-)

NO, the private prayer/praise language is called the "manifestation of the spirit" but that which needs Interpretation is The Gift of Tongues. Like "the Gift of Faith or Healing" etc.

Again, there are two different tongues.

1 is the private prayer/praise manifestation of the Spirit tongues and 2 is the "gift of tongues" which is comparable to "the gift of faith" as it differs than the faith had by "all".

Maybe if you read page one again or slower.

I realise that it's slopily done, and if you feel I should re-do it neater, I will make time for that.

Love to you.
Annie again

Someone asked if I believe new birth and baptism in the Spirit are always separate, and if some people are born again, but not baptised in the Spirit, and therefore they can't speak in tongues ?

One may - as in the book of Acts get saved and Baptised in the Holy Spirit at the same time, and even before water baptism as seen in Acts 10.

The Indwelling of the spirit and The Baptism of The Holy Spirit. Two separate events.

John the Baptist said ...

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but He shall 'baptize you with the Holy Ghost.' {See, Acts 1:5 below}

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John 7:38-39 He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39-But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.

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"After Jesus' Resurrection, but before the Lord's Ascension" ...

John 20:19-22 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. And when he had so said, he showed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost .

(Note: The disciples and all believers have the Holy Spirit resident in them.

Upon becoming a Believer, the Holy Spirit is in them. But yet, they were commanded to wait in Jerusalem for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Next verse.

This can be compared to a glass with water in it and a glass with water pouring out and over.

As what Jesus meant above in the John 7 verses)

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Luke 24:49-51 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with Power from on high.

And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

(Luke goes on to write the Book of Acts)

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Acts 1:3-5 To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of Me,

5 For John truly baptized with water; {Mark 1:8 above} but ye shall be 'baptized with the Holy Ghost' not many days hence.

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Acts 2:1-4 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place and suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

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Acts 10:44-48 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Because they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

(Note: These received the baptism in the Holy Spirit, even before they were water baptized.

They're belief in Paul's preaching, in the previous verses of this same Chpt., was so convincing to them, that they believed strongly and went straight to the Pentecost experience with their believing.

We can't put God in a box, and say God wouldn't do this.)

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Acts 19:1-6 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? (Note: These were Disciples, born-again-believers and all believers have the Holy Ghost, but he meant the Baptism in the Holy Ghost.)

And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

When they heard this, they were baptized (in water) in the name of the Lord Jesus.

And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

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Immediately after Pentecost, the disciples went outside and began to witness and 3000 were saved that day. Then, they knew, felt and saw the difference and why Jesus had asked them to "wait" for this Baptism.

The following verses show "when" the disciples received the Comforter/Spirit of Truth.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will 'send' him unto you. (he gave them the Holy Spirit BEFORE He ascended,'Breathed on them, while He was still present with them', in John 20:22 above, but when He "went away", He sent Pentecost.)

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me.

John 14:15-26 If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. {Pentecost}

Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him.

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father 'will' send in my name, he shall teach you All things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into All truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.

Mark 16:17 & 18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

We can see through all of these verses, that the "Comforter" and "Spirit of Truth" - (Jn. 14:17, 15:26 & 16:13) that Jesus had promised that He and the Father would send them, came at Pentecost and not when they first became believers or [u]when he breathed on them[/u], before He ascended.

"Seek and ye shall find." "The Promise of the Father." Luke 11:9-13.

Hi Annie,

Thank you for the foregoing exposition, in which I have understood more than I understood before.

I can see how you would separate new birth and Pentecost for believers subsequent to the disciples, but I don't see how you can say they were born again when the risen Jesus [i]breathed[/i] on them.

They obviously had [i]believed[/i] on Him for a long time, but that had not caused them to be 'born of the Spirit' - John 3: 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.." - as you suggest we would do now (since Pentecost).

I can accept that baptism in the Spirit is separate for some people, from new birth, but, not for the reason you give from John 20. There is massive scriptural evidence that the kind of belief which made Peter say 'You have the words of eternal life' (John 6:68), did not prevent him from denying the Lord, and [i]all[/i] the disciples thought the women were making up that His body had gone from the tomb ... that is, until they saw it for themselves. [i]Yet[/i] they were filled with fear. Jesus had to say 'Peace' to them. So, even believing in the resurrection, and receiving the power to forgive sins (John 20:23) - in the same way as they had previously received power to cast out devils and heal the sick, did not make them 'born of the Spirit'.

After Pentecost, a different spiritual dynamic was available. Even Cornelius* to whom the Lord Himself may have appeared, or an angel, to tell him to call for Peter, with [i]all[/i] his* faith in God, had not been born again of the Spirit - until he was also baptised in the Spirit.

But let me say clearly, I do know people who show forth the fruit of the Spirit in their lives, who are obviously born again, but who do not (appear to) have any gifts of the Spirit, as bestowed by a baptism in the Spirit.

:-? What ?

No, only kidding, please don't say it again. ha.

I'm sorry ... Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Did the thief on the cross die and see the kingdom ?

When has the Holy Spirit ever "resided" in a human unless they 'are' converted or saved or born-again.

Do you have "born-again" as something beyond Salvation ?

When Jesus breathed on them before His Ascension and said "receive ye the Holy Spirit" ... is that not New Birth to you ?
In that, that seems to be when we all experienced our new birth, was upon the conversion process that led to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit ... though it was not The Baptism, we nonetheless were 'Saved' or born-again.

This is a new teaching to me that you've posted ... and I find this interesting ... yet very strange that you do not have these disciples "born again" before Pentecost ?

Well, I'm not quite sure where you've gotten this teaching but I'll let the dust settle in my mind before I delve into discussing "when" is a person actually "born of the Spirit".

I will have to tell you right off though, that this is strange and that I could not endorse nor come aside this ... but possibly could you tell me if you've come to this belief on your own or through a Pastor ?


MUCH LOVE to you my dear sister.

Hope you don't mind that I'm disagreeing here with you. :-o

Annie

Thanks for your lovely testimony Dorcas.
In my experience the tongue I speak in private, or in my head or the one I might speak out in church is one and the same, Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling.
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
I believe you are correct it is the same 'gift of tongues' just as the 'gift of tongues' on the day of Pentecost enabled the Disciples to speak in the unlearned language of the out-of-town visitors on that day.
It is a God given ability that develops with practice and experience - don't worry you WILL be able to give a 'tongue' in church when you fell the urging of the Spirit, and many testimonies exist of people being urged to speak out in tongues in public (shopping mall etc) only to find that a foreign person within hearing distance had heard a Godly message in their own language! Wow...that must really be something!
1Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

1Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the EDIFYING OF THE CHURCH.
Be encouraged Dorcas.
:-)

_________________
Peter Jackson