| Poster | Thread |
RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
I think that it really helps to build trust first before we tell someone that there is a different way to look at things.
Above all, the Spirit can guide us.
Yes. I used to have a professor who would teach his material and then at the end ask the class if they had any 'ah- ha' experiences while listening. That would then lead to a time of discovery. When folk can 'discover' for themselves the truth it carries so much more weight than when we kind of drag them by the collar. There is much less resistance to the truth when it is self-discovered, or if I might so say, if they are allowed to make their own conclusions. Sometimes you can convince a person and yet they still remain unconvinced; not because of the facts in the case, but because of other variables that are weighing in also that the person has to reckon with one at a time as they come to mind.
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Robert Wurtz II
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 2006/2/23 8:42 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Sooo... does anyone here who feels the Catholic Church is a Christian Church have any questions? We kinda got on a roll, and then fell off the radar.
Krispy |
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| 2006/2/24 7:16 | |
roadsign
Member
Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777
| | Re: coming to terms with terms | | Krispy, we may have fallen off of your roll, but not necessarily off of God's roll. When Jesus was asked yes-no questions he never answered them as expected. He got to the heart of the issue - and I think we have done that here.
It's impossible to answer a close-ended question when we are not dealing with close-ended definitions (the terms Christian/Christianity). Paul dealt with that same problem in his day. He said, "A Jew is not a Jew unless he is one inwardly." (Rom. 2) So, clearly, the definintion of "Jew" varies according to whose eyes one looks through - man's or God's.
Apply that to the word "Christian"
Here is a dictionary definition of Christainity:
1: a monotheistic system of beliefs and practices based on the Old Testament and the teachings of Jesus as embodied in the New Testament and emphasizing the role of Jesus as savior
2: the collective body of Christians throughout the world and history (found predominantly in Europe and the Americas and Australia)
"for a thousand years the Roman Catholic Church was the principal church of Christendom"
Clearly, the RC falls under the wide umbrella of Christianity by definition and the way the word is used globally.
Now consider how Jesus defined his followers. He also made it clear that many would be taking his name in vain: ie, Calling themselves his(Christ followers, Christians) when they were not inwardly.
According to Christ's definition there is no such thing as a "Christian" church - ie religious organization. (Sorry, Baptists, Pentacostals, Fundies, Presbys, Anglicans, Independants .. etc) One is a Chrisitan (ie Christ follower) only if they are one inwardly. And no one can claim to be one by way of association with other Christians/ denomination/family..
We tend to label people by association, don't we? Even Jesus was labeled a "glutton and drinker" - maybe because he hung around with some. That doesn't make it right.
So we can't label all RC's non-Christians because of their hang-out. One's term of identification is not necessarily an indication of their inward state. It is a term of association.
I suspect that there are many nominal Muslims, but we still call them Muslims (I know one)
So: Can a Catholic individual be a Christian? The answer is: Of Course - not only according to the earthly use of the word, but also by God's definition.
I wonder how Jesus would answer your question. Would it be in any way similar to my words here... probably not. He had a way of going right to the heart of the issue - the conscience of the one asking the question. Ex the Good Samaritan. etc....
I don't seem to be much help, do I?
Diane
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Diane
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| 2006/2/24 8:39 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Diane... you think to hard. I feel like whenever I write something... ANYTHING... I have to spend even more time clarifying myself when I dont think I really need to.
Christian, as most of us here on this forum understand it is: Someone who has put their faith in Christ, repented of their sins and believes the Bible.
When I ask the question "Is the Roman Catholic Church a Biblical Christian Church" ... everyone here knows what I am asking.
I love ya Diane... but you do tend to nit-pick things a bit too much sometimes. :-)
Krispy |
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| 2006/2/24 9:22 | |
crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: Emotions | | Quote:
Do you ever wonder why Jesus was much harsher with the Pharisees than the "sinners". Maybe it was because their barriers were so rigid. They lacked emotion, sensitivity, empathy...
Diane, find it not the least bit odd that I had the same similar thoughts this morning praying. My own train of thought was running along the notice that the Lord was quite capable of getting the point across in few words with the "sinners" (well postioned quotes there).Quote:
Jesus didn't "pull rank" , or assert dominance over someone's mind - and maybe that is something worth considering. .. a way to avoid strong emotional reaction to our words. (?)
It is quite noticable all the 'defending' that the Lord never did...
Quote:
I find life is easier when I just assume that I could be wrong about a thousand things, and at any time God could put someone in my life to let me see some error in my thinking.
Ahhhhhh ..... yes, precisely. It has a great way of proving itself out anyway ;-)
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Mike Balog
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| 2006/2/24 10:14 | Profile |
roadsign
Member
Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777
| | Re: answer | | Quote:
Diane... you think too hard.
Some refer to this malady divergent thinking. I would like to think that I eventually converge onto one point.
...Don't know if restating my concluding point in the negative would be any better:
ie: Many RC's are NON-Christians - according to Christ's definition. The RC church contains many deceived teachers. (Even many of their own members would quickly admit that).
Do I get a good grade on my answer here?
Diane
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Diane
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| 2006/2/24 11:41 | Profile |
roadsign
Member
Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777
| | Re: the Spirit | | Quote:
Diane, find it not the least bit odd that I had the same similar thoughts this morning praying.
It brings me joy and encouragement to see the work of the Spirit amidst this diverse company. Surely the Spirit works beyond our finite limitations in order to refine and build his Church. (Universal)
Diane
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Diane
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| 2006/2/24 11:53 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
ie: Many RC's are NON-Christians - according to Christ's definition. The RC church contains many deceived teachers. (Even many of their own members would quickly admit that).
Yea, something like that. Except I would contend that all RCC teachers are deceived, and deceivers. They would not be allowed to teach if they were presenting things that do not coincide with RCC doctrine.
Simple and to the point... and I give you an A+ with a smiley face. :-)
Krispy |
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| 2006/2/24 12:00 | |
roadsign
Member
Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777
| | Re: | | Quote:
I would contend that all RCC teachers are deceived, and deceivers.
Oh, Krispy, I hate to unravel your neat packaged answer here.
I have a RC friend whom God called me to intercede for a few years ago. She got saved, and became filled with the Spirit. She was given the role of teaching confirmation class in her church, and the Spirit spoke his truth through her in an amazing way - even beyond what she could plan. She preached the gospel! I heard her "preach" in unplanned situations, and trust me, she was filled with the Spirit - fearless of what any man would say about her.
I have another friend who was saved in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal in Gibraltar/Spain. The movement got right out of control of the RC church. Many leaders in places of prominence were saved.
I know that the RC church, rather than lose thousands of members decided to take this movement under its umbrella and accept it. I'm not sure where it stands right now.
I hope these commments don't reduce my grade. I like to get A+'s.
Diane
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Diane
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| 2006/2/24 13:15 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
She was given the role of teaching confirmation class in her church, and the Spirit spoke his truth through her in an amazing way
Really? Hmmm... how do you teach confirmation (which the teachings of the RCC) and teach the truth at the same time? Sounds like confusion to me.
This is from a Catholic website:
[i]The Sacrament of Confirmation often happens in the middle of a [b]Mass[/b] (ie: blashpemey - Krispy); after the sermon and before receiving Communion.
Presentation of the candidate
The names of everybody to be confirmed are read out. Each one stands up so everyone can see and then goes to the Bishop at the front.
The Renewal of Baptismal Promises
Each candidate is asked questions about what they believe. They promise to reject evil. These promises are like an enrolment in to the Catholic Church. It is a bit like joining a club, except that the promises affect the whole of a person's life.
The Laying on of Hands
The Bishop lays his hands on each of the candidates. This is to show them that they have the special job of living like Jesus would want and showing other people how to do the same. The hands are a symbol of the power and strength that will come to them through the Holy Spirit.
The Anointing with Chrism
The Bishop says the candidate's name. This can be a special confirmation name (normally a saint's name) or the name they usually use.
The Bishop then draws the sign of the cross on the forehead of the candidate with the oil of chrism. This oil is an ancient sign of being chosen by God. It is also used in baptism. The sign of the cross shows that the candidate is a child of God. Oil can be used to heal or to give strength.
The Bishop then says "Be sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit," followed by "Peace be with you," and the candidate replies, "And also with you."[/i]
Can you not see the heresy behind this? Once a person is saved... they saved, and part of the Body of Christ.
I dont need any Catholic bishop to confirm me, or declare me sealed with the Holy Spirit. I have God's Word.
As for the other people in Spain, if they got out from the control of the RCC, then yes I can believe they were teaching the truth... because they got out.
You cant teach Catholic confirmation and the Bible at the same time. It's like oil and water.
Krispy |
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| 2006/2/24 13:20 | |
