"if a women develops this quiet, gentle and submissive spirit is there any need for her to atract a man by dressing like a harlot. No."Amen to that! That was wonderful and i pray that this truth will be revealed to all the women in and out of the church. and while your teaching the guys on this like ginnyrose suggested, can you please tell them to stop shopping in the womens section for the "tight fitted" girl pants!!!
_________________Ruxandra
"The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God." Deut 22:5 :-D
Strange, is it not about cross dressing: if a male would wear women's clothing he would be looked at crosseyed by the general population, considered a weirdo and a homo. However, let a female do the same, it's practice is defended, even by males! Oh my! something is really screwed up here! I am very uncomfortable when I look at a human being and wonder what gender I am looking at!!! We do know how what God says about it.....ginnyrose
_________________Sandra Miller
considered a weirdo and a homo. However, let a female do the same, it's practice is defended, even by males!
ShirHashirum wrote:
"The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God." Deut 22:5This verse used to trouble me some, wondering what it means when men wore robes, looking like women. One day I went to the public library and got a book about styles of clothing people wore in ages past. Only thing I noticed that was different during the time of Christ is that men wore 'mini-skirts' or kilts. After pondering this some more I came to two conclusions: 1. Men and women dressd different, as most cultures do and from my perspective in the 20th century I may not be able to discern totally what form this all took. 2. God made male and female and he called it 'very good', the only time he used this description was after the end of the sixth day of creation. Adam & Eve bore the image of God. They were different, made to compilment each other..fit together absolutely perfectly. He now wants us to celebrate this awesome wonder by each wearing a different costume so people will be able to marvel and give thanks for his work of creation! Both genders bear the image of God, seriously marred by the fall, but it is still there. How we relate to others depends a lot of what gender I am and the one I am relating to. People will respond differently because of gender. Nothing wrong wih that, it's just the way we are made. So dressing like a different gender, blurs this line of distinction. It is saying we are not pleased with the gender God made us which is a slap in God's face. About work dictating what clothes one should wear. (Now this will definately be controversial). Obviously, when one lives in the frigid climates one will dress for warmeth and survival. Even so, I would guess there may be some distinction. But most of us do not live there. The work we females do....I grew up on the farm, did all kinds of chores, fed the animals, fowl, caught the chickens for crating to be sent to the market(nasty work, I promise!), drove tractor, played in the hay mow....like all farm children do. Mom never dressed us in pants thinking they would be more modest for work or play. Dad was very careful we girls would take care of our bodies, not subject them to real hard work which could damage our child bearing abilities! (Between us three we had 13 live births and maybe one miscarriage). If our work means our modesty would be compromised, perhaps we need to carefully consider what can be worn to minimize that and still honor God with our apparel. The scripture quoted says it is an abomination to God to dress what pertains to the opposite sex. Some scholars have said what God calls an abomination will always be one unless he comes along later and nullifies it with a different command, e.g., Peter was told in a vision to rise and eat unclean animals which heretofor were an abomination. A very interesting study is to take Strong's Concordance and do a search on abomnination, study the context and compare it with NT teaching.How to dress? would it not be best to ask the Holy Spirit for inspiration, to teach us? What say?ginnyrose_________________Sandra Miller
It is very intersting the way this discussion has turned.I am looking at the issue of sexual identity, but in our minds we immediately turn to dress. I am not saying it is wrong but it is interesting to not e that some think that dress does not have anything to do with sexual identity but the moment you talk about sexual identity the discussion turns to dress.The verse is a very interesting one becasue the fact simple is that men and women should dress differently. When everyone dresses the same the lines get blurred as to sexaul idenity. Histroically in the USA. Has anyone else noticed how much homosexaulity increased and became more accepted once ladies decided that they could dress and act like men. wonder why? :smart: The fact remains that Bible points to this in this verse as a principle that those cultures who dress in such a way that you can't make distinction are indeed an abomination to him. He created male and female and he expects the differences to be noted and celebrated.Ginnyrose,My mother's expereince on the farm is similar to yours. She and her sister stayed in the house and helped with the cooking, cleaning, they kept a small garden, took care of the chickens (eggs), they fedd the animals but they did none of the heavy work like haying or out in the field or wrestling with the cattle, etc. Her brothers helped with that. My mother's sister had 4 children (no miscarriages) and was one of the best homemakers and i might add very happy. My mom became a medical technologist and all he early life worried about things concerning her career -- result I am an only child, several miscarriages and difficulty getting preganant in the first palce. My mother then turned ot God so things have gotten better for her. But in the 60's when she was getting started the womens lib movement had an impact on her in college -- the difference is obvious.There are two questions as to sexual identity and dress. One is this issue of dressing like the sex we are and two, what exactly does it mean to be modest in dress?The first becomes difficult in when you consider that as times have changed -- dress in different cultures is well different as well concerning this. This is also a problem with dress on the modest question. Culture play some part in it. You mention cold climes but hot ones also exist. In soem palces too many clothes or ones that don't breath well can kill you. In some cultures being covered up in any way would be modest. A women in a culture near the equator faces the fact that see must be modest, but modesty may simply mean she wears a short skirt and something over her chest because the rest of the women in he culture wear nothing at all. Is modesty culturally realative? It does make it hard to address this question because is the smae cultures where the women where nothing or very little the men dress the same. Only for special occasions and cerimonies do you see the difference. Are they in a sense dressing the same? If we are going to maintain that modesty and difference in dress is part of sexual identity then we also must be ready to preach to such cultures that their culture is in some way wrong as to how they dress and they need to cover up and make a distiction in how they dress. There is a lot of opposition to this out there now because missionaries are not supposed to --'westernize' or 'Christanize' a culture. This is wat they would be considered to be doing if they did this.For the good ole USA -- I think the differences in dress may have come down to one article of clothing -- the dress itself. When a man wears one he is considered 'abnormal' even in this liberated culture, what is interesting is that the opposite is not the case as someone pointed out. Am I wrong here? I realize there are other ways to look feminine without the dress, but it seems to be the dividing line. Hard one to consider for me. it is hard to find a girl or woman in my own church that wears a dress all the time.What's a pastor to do?Blessings.
_________________Ed Raby
Sir, I read your original post, and the most recent one, and I can see you have a good grasp on the realities of how the church got to where it is. As I see the world and remember well what has been and from reading history, I have come to one conclusion. We will never see revival unless these gender issues are resolved IN the church. Forget about the world: it will never be converted; it is those people who call themselves by God's name who we are concerned about. (Obviously, I do not believe in 'once saved always saved'). This would include fathers taking responcibility of their children - read Malachi 4:6: "And he shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the heart of the chuildren to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." If the fathers would be reconciled with their children it would go a long way in solving these gender issues and cut the divorce rate among church people (Mothers love it when their husbands love their children!).How to do it? You can not do it alone. One faithful Indian lady suggested we need to pray for a mighty visitation of the Holy Spirit. Sounds like the only solution to me...and in the meantime one needs to educate and encourage brethren to take the leadership in this issue. This I hope I am doing....ginnyrose
Sir Edward wrote:
I just want people to understand the orignial intent of the holiness movement was holiness of heart. Once that is achived -- dress and behavior line up accordingly
Amen, Karl!
_________________Lisa
Karl,
What does holiness got to do with clothes?I know people who are not even believers who dress accordingly, so again I say, what does holiness got to do with clothes.
As long as your covered, covered with rags, or a banana leaf or covered in Egyptian cotton, the main thing is that your covered and you do it modestly.
So if you remove the clothes and seperate the clothes from the teaching of holiness, I wonder what the outcome would be. Because everyone who speaks about holiness always without fail talk about what the women should wear, and then they go on talking about hair......need I go on?
I wonder what ole Peter and Paul would think of our pitiful rendition of holiness, I think they would rent their clothes and rebuke us harshly until we at least start to see that the outward man is perishing the inward man is being renewed day by day.
NIV -- [b]I also want women to dress modestly[/b], with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, [b]appropriate for women who profess to worship God[/b]. NAS-- Likewise, [b]I want (U)women to adorn themselves with proper clothing [/b], modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 10but rather by means of good works, [b]as is proper for women making a claim to godliness[/b].
Your adornment must [b]not be merely[/b] external--braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; 4but let it be (E)the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.
I see alot of believers that are holy, but they don't look like what the denominations want them to look like. T-shirts, Jeans and sneakers.
When talking about holiness, clothes should never be talked about in connection to it, that is where the true root of legalism comes in. But if we talk about moderation all manner of things are discussed in this area. But if any man be contentious, we have no such custom neither the churches of God.
