| Re: |
Colossians 1:19,20 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
Ephesians 1:9,10 For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the secret of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Romans 5:18 Then as one man’s trespass [Adam’s] led to condemnation for all people, so one man’s act of righteousness [Christ’s] leads to acquittal and life for all people.
Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God has highly exalted him [Christ] and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Revelation 5:12-13 And I heard every created being in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might into the ages of ages.
Romans 11:32 For God has consigned all people to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.
Philippians 3:20,21 But our commonwealth is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself.
1 Corinthians 15:22-28 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. "For God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "All things are put in subjection under him," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.
| 2017/8/27 15:12||Profile|
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
| Re: |
I talked with an older good brother in a fellowship meeting today and when I mentioned the mark of the beast this was his general answer. He spoke that we have to actually choose now if we are following the ways of the world or the way of Christ. We right now are to be those who are to be marked with the seal of God or the mark of the beast. If we are living fully for "pleasures" now then in the end we will seek all the pleasures available in the mark of the beast.
So we must live for the Lord now, be willing to lose all things for him. Choosing to say no to the world system now before we "have to" when the mark of the beast happens.
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
| 2017/8/27 15:40||Profile|
| Re: |
Greg- I agree with your friend 100%. All of us are marked, by the Lord or by the enemy.
| 2017/8/27 16:11||Profile|
| Re: |
Thats from a point of view that you can loose ur salvation.I think the "Mark" is for a specific time in history full stop and many people will take the mark not just for "pleasures" but for other reasons as well.I think choosing to say no the world system is a life long thing as its a battle with sin won by Jesus but we strive to walk in,urs staff
| 2017/8/27 18:23||Profile|
| Re: |
I must be missing something? Why is this strained interpretation being forced as though this "mark" sends you to hell faster than simply being an unsaved moral person? What about this allegiance to the beast is different from allegiance to the world, the flesh or the devil in any normal sense of worldliness that John also condemns?
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
I have yet to see anyone show proof there is no chance of repentance to someone who takes the mark but finds Jesus will forgive? I'm waiting for someone to show explicitly that taking this mark is more damning than the common humanism found in every day America.
So while I do see personality pressing their point, I don't see the Spirit of God exposing the validity of their assertions rendering the contrary opinions of John MacArthur as null and void.
So, as we are all proudly Berean, I need to see from these Bereans their scriptural reasons Pastor John is wrong as well as myself who think this strained interpretation is shaky at best. Merely quoting the immediate doom of Mark takers is no proof of that mark being "immediately damning" anymore so than "not believing that I am He" is equally damning. But with the John 8 text, we leave room for repentance to come, in the Revelation text we leave no room. Those who believe contrary to me must show in scripture there is no chance of repentance or grace.
If you ignore, then I cannot conclude anything other than this is an unwarranted attack on John MacArthur by falsely accusing brothers or they simply have nefarious motives.
I need to see some "validation" of their interpretations other than simply "negating" everyone who disagrees with them or implies we are going to take the mark or we are ok with taking the mark or some such assumptions.
| 2017/8/27 19:13||Profile|
| Re: |
TMK, I am sure I am misunderstanding you. You aren't trying to defend the false doctrine that all will be saved are you?
Matthew 7:13-14,21-23 KJV
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 13:37-43 KJV
He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;  The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one ;  The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.  As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.  The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;  And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.  Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 25:23-27,29-30 KJV
His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.  Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:  And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.  His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:  Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.  For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.  And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:31-34,41,46 KJV
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 24:45-51 KJV
Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?  Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.  Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.  But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;  And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;  The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him , and in an hour that he is not aware of,  And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Jude 1:14-15 KJV
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 KJV
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Colossians 1:22-23 KJV
In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Matthew 10:28 KJV
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luke 13:24-28 KJV
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.  When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:  Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.  But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.  There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Revelation 20:11-15 KJV
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 14:9-11 KJV
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
1 Peter 4:17-18 KJV
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?  And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
| 2017/8/27 20:21||Profile|
| Re: |
Marvin the scriptures have been clearlyl put forth that if one receives the mark during the tribulation then their destiny is eternal condemnation. Those scriptures are stated in the OP.
But again in Rev. 14:9-11...
Doom for Worshipers of the Beast
••• 9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11“And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” •••
There is no forced biblical interpretation in the text above. The text clearly states that if one worships the beast and receives his mark he will experience the wrath of God. That person will be tormented with fire and brimstone forever and ever. They will have no rest. This is the teaching of the passage above.
Those who worship the beast and recieve his mark cannot repent for as Paul writes in 2 Thessalonians...
••• 8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.••• 2 Thes. 2:8-12
According to the passage above such people who worship the antichrist and take the mark cannot repent. They did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For that reason God has sent them a deluding influence to believe what is false.
This would be similar to Pharaoh hardening his heart when he was confronted with the judgments upon Egypt. Because Pharaoh has so hardened his heart. God completed the process by continuing to harden Pharaoh's heart.
Those in the tribulation who reject the truth of salvation in Jesus and choose to worship the antichrist and receive his mark. God will just send upon them a deluding influence to believe what is false.
For this reason they cannot believe the truth and be saved. Those who choose to worship antichrist and receive his mark have made their choice.
Jesus warms in Matthew...
••• Therefore everyone who confesses me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven. And whoever denies me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven.••• Mat. 10:32-33
Also Paul writes in 2nd Timothy...
•••If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny him, he also will deny us.••• 2 Tim. 2:12
The scriptures are quite clear. There is no forced biblical interpretation.
Deny Christ before men and he will deny that person before His Father.
Deny Christ and worship the antichrist and receive his mark the consequences are etetnal wrath and punisment.
Likewise confess Christ before men. He will confess that person before his Father. Endure with Christ and one will reign with him.
But a choice must be made and there is no crossing the line. Once one has chosen to deny Christ and worship antichrist and receive his mark. Then that person will be under a deluding influence. And that person cannot repent.
| 2017/8/27 20:32|
| Re: |
The answers or evidence is right there in the passages given, they are the direct declaration on the matter, if some want to distort the plain meaning of those verses then they have to present relevant evidences that have enough probative value.
Our moderator shared a wise thought about the matter, we have to prepare and resolve ourselves seriously on the matter at the moment, it may present as a serious threat, a cunning offer, or as normal course of affairs.
The critical mass of events, viz. the paradigm revolutions in the Christian and other worlds, the advanced technologies of war, the renationalization, recognition and wars of Israel, the rising or violent anti-christian sentiments, the on-going formation of global powers and alliances, is now in the melting pot, it may just need a little bit more of cooking and seasoning before the ominous one is loosened.
| 2017/8/27 20:39||Profile|
| Re: |
// TMK, I am sure I am misunderstanding you. You aren't trying to defend the false doctrine that all will be saved are you? //
Not at all. I am trying to refute the idea that Jesus is a big loser, which a good number of folks here seem to proudly assert.
| 2017/8/27 21:16||Profile|
| Re: |
"We right now are to be those who are to be marked with the seal of God or the mark of the beast."
It's that simple!
Revelation 7:3 says,
"Don't harm the land, the sea, or the trees until we have marked the servants of our God with a seal on their foreheads."
sphragizó: to seal
Part of Speech: Verb
4972 sphragízō (from 4973 /sphragís, "a seal") – properly, to seal (affix) with a signet ring or other instrument to stamp (a roller or seal), i.e. to attest ownership, authorizing (validating) what is sealed.
4972 /sphragízō ("to seal") signifies ownership and the full security carried by the backing (full authority) of the owner. "Sealing" in the ancient world served as a "legal signature" which guaranteed the promise (contents) of what was sealed.
Sealing was sometimes done in antiquity by the use of religious tattoos – again signifying "belonging to."
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
σφραγίζω (Revelation 7:3 )the Sept. for חָתַם; to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal; in order to mark a person or thing; hence, to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal, to stamp: angels are said with the seal of God to stamp his servants on their foreheads as destined for eternal salvation, and by this means to confirm their hopes, Revelation 7:3, cf. Ewald at the passage; (B. D., under the words, Cuttings and Forehead); hence, οἱ εσφραγισμένοι, fourteen times in Rec. Revelation 7:4-8 ; metaphorically: respecting God, who by the gift of the Holy Spirit indicates who are his, passive, Ephesians 1:13; Ephesians 4:30; absolutely, middle with τινα, 2 Corinthians 1:22.
d. in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing; hence, tropically, to confirm, authenticate, place beyond doubt (a written document τῷ δακτυλίῳ, Esther 8:8): followed by ὅτι, John 3:33; τινα, to prove by one's testimony to a person that he is what he professes to be, John 6:27.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
From sphragis; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literally or figuratively).
| 2017/8/28 7:41||Profile|