Hi Bearmaster,
No I disagree you are basing your post on what Corrie Ten Boom believes.Corrie Ten Boom is clearly wrong to base a blame on Church problems on the holding of "Pre Tribulation belief" in this instance.Her teaching is very poor on this subject in my opinion but her love is clearly not.
She is clearly speaking from experience and not any definite scriptural insight and you are compounding the problem by basically saying that Corrie Ten Boom said it was the Pre Tribulation belief that was at fault so she must be right.
Again look at Billy Graham,no persecution of this level at least and no tribulation either in his life,lives to 97 years,counciller to many Presidents etc so therefore I can deduce that the Pre Tribulation view is correct??Absolutely not I cant and so its the same with Corrie Ten Boom whether in her opinion the Pre Tribulation view caused a problem or not,urs staff

Then brother please engage the scriptures that I have posted in this thread and the other thread. Please show me where I am in error and tell me where the pretrib view is taught in the New Testament.

Bro Blaine

I would hazard to guess that this topic has been hashed out on this forum close to fifty times. The discussions rarely seem fruitful.

I think that we can all agree that there will be a rapture of the church and that there will be some foolish and some wise when He comes. Some with no oil and some with oil. Some who are religious but dead, some who are alive in Christ. May we be found among the latter group.

In Christ,

_________________
Ron Halverson

Not willing to lead "fruitless discussion..." I have a question. As I understand the Scriptures there is difference between the persecution from Antichrist and the punishment of God. So my simple belief is that Christians will take part in the first but not the second:

Revelation 3:10
[10]Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

And the great tribulation is once for Christians the persecution:

Revelation 7:14
[14]And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

And for all others there is another great tribulation - the wrath of God:

Zephaniah 2:3
[3]Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.


Is this wrong? Simply my thoughts... and feel free to correct me. I just don't see how God can make His own redeemed children partake in His wrath! That can't be...

___I just don't see how God can make His own redeemed children partake in His wrath! That can't be...___

My sister we are clearly spared from the wrath of God throigh the work of Jesus on the cross. But we will undergo persecution in this life. This is part of following Jesus.

We read how God spared the Israelites from the judgments that He brought upon Egypt. I believe it will be the same for the believers in the great tribulation.

Simply my understanding.

Bro Blaine

Hi Bearmaster,
But its clearly you who are not engaging with my points.
I told you from the start I wasnt talking about the plus or minus of the tribulation views.I made that clear.
I was commenting on the false premise that just because a leading Christian like "Corrie Ten Boom" or anyone else like "Billy Graham"(which he hasnt) come out and say things like "look what Pre Tribulation or Post Tribulation have done to the church isnt any kind of basis to say that the doctrine is wrong.
Again I am commenting on the heading of the post and use of "Corrie Ten Boom" to promote a point of view that just because she thinks its wrong doesnt mean its actually wrong,
Again I am not writing to show you that you are in error regarding your pre tribulation view,I am writing to show you that the premise of the post is all faulty and in error,
Yours Staff

/Conspicuous absence of the Church in Revelation after chapter 4.

Once the church age is complete in chapter 3, you don’t see the church mentioned on the earth again. Instead, you do see worshiping hosts in heaven before the throne, which seem to indicate the church is in heaven at this point./

It is said the church is not mentioned after Revelation chapter three so obviously it will not be present on earth during the tribulation. In "The Rapture Question," leading pre-tribulationist Walvoord advocated that no Old Testament tribulation passages make mention of Gentile saints. If none exist, pretribulationists should hardly argue from a mysterious silence in the Old Testament concerning the Church, because the Old Testament remains silent also concerning the Gentile saints whom we know beyond a doubt will be on earth during the tribulation. In other words, if according to the pre-trib view the Church is not mentioned in the Old Testament then Gentile saints during the tribulation are supposedly not mentioned either. But yet we know beyond a doubt Gentile saints will be on earth during the tribulation.

And what makes up the Church, the body of Christ? Isn't it made up of those who have placed their faith in Christ and His atoning blood? Why does Revelation 7:14 mention a great multitude who have made their garments white in the blood of the Lamb during the tribulation? They are in heaven but have just come from the earth during the tribulation but what keeps these from being members of the Church since they have been cleansed by the blood of Christ. If the "church age" and the "age of grace" ends at a pre-trib rapture why is the same exact gospel of grace going to be preached during the tribulation that was preached during the supposedly ended church age?

Why does the pre-trib view maintain that those saved by faith in the sin cleansing blood of the Lamb before a pre-trib rapture are part of the church but those saved by faith in exactly the same way after a pre-trib rapture are not part of the church?

_________________
David Winter

"So, in the tribulation period, the Holy Spirit, who is omnipresent, will do the work of regeneration as He did when God was previously dealing with Israel, but WITHOUT AN INDWELLING MINISTRY (emphasis mine). The present-day indwelling is related to empowerment, to union of believer with believer because of their relation to the Temple of God, but the indwelling is entirely distinct and separated from the work of the Spirit in regeneration. Thus, it should be clearly seen that even though the Spirit is not indwelling in the tribulation, He may still be operative in regeneration."

(J. Dwight Pentecost, "Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology," 1958, Dunham Publishing Co., Ch 17 - "The Relation of the Holy Spirit to Salvation in the Tribulation)

"It should also be evident that if the Spirit of God characteristically indwells the church as well as the individual saint in this age, the removal of the Spirit would involve a dispensational change and the removal of the church as well. While the Spirit will work in the tribulation period, He will follow the pattern of the period before Pentecost rather than this present age of grace. The Spirit of God will return to heaven after accomplishing His earthly work, much as the Lord Jesus Christ returned to heaven after completing His earthly work. In both cases, the work of the Second Person and the Third Person continues, but in a different setting and in a different way."

(John F. Walvoord, "The Rapture Question," The Zondervan Corporation, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1979, Ch 7 - The Work of the Holy Spirit In This Age, p 81)

“But neither Gundry nor anyone else can prove that the baptizing work of the Spirit that forms the church is ever seen in the tribulation. That the Spirit works in the tribulation all agree. That the Spirit indwells all believers in the tribulation is nowhere taught.”

(John Walvoord – "The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation" - p128)

"...the unique Church economy ministries of indwelling, baptizing, sealing. gifting and filling of every believer will be removed with the Church. This is consistent with all that is revealed of the average Tribulation believer's level of spiritual insight, knowledge and maturity."

(Hal Lindsey, "The Rapture", Bantam Books, p 138)

"God will be faithful to His covenant people. The 144,000 Jews who are sealed as witnesses immediately after the Rapture will be granted divine protection so that they may be preserved during the time of Tribulation. God's judgment and wrath will be evident, yes, but so will His mercy. Once the church has been removed, God will act to bring the nation of Israel to faith in Him. The Holy Spirit, while not indwelling believers as He did in the church age, will move to convict and enlighten. The Jews will see miraculous signs of God's work..."

(John Hagee, "The Battle For Jerusalem," Thomas Nelson, Inc., 2001. p 228)

It's a undeniably provable fact that the view that tribulation saints are not to be part of the church nor have the indwelling Spirit even though they place faith in Christ was never seen in the Church before the 1830s. And logically the question therefore arises, is it a correct view based on sound exegesis?

_________________
David Winter

Brothers and Sisters

I am posting the text of our sister, Corrie Ten Boon's letter. This is the letter that was read on the Youtube video. It deserves to be read prayerfully.

This sister is now in the presence of Jesus. She does not need to be defended. Her testimony in Jesus is defense itself. But before we do question this sister. Please realize that she has seen more suffering than any of us in this forum will ever see. And let us realuze that she has heard the words of her Beloved, who has said well done thou good and faithful servant. Well done my precious daughter.

May her example of faith inspire us to be living witnesses in the great tribulation ahead.

Bro Blaine
_________________


CORRIE TEN BOOM’S RAPTURE WARNING:

The world is deathly ill. It is dying. The Great Physician has already signed the death certificate. Yet there is still a great work for Christians to do. They are to be streams of living water, channels of mercy to those who are still in the world. It is possible for them to do this because they are overcomers.
Christians are ambassadors for Christ. They are representatives from Heaven to this dying world. And because of our presence here, things will change.

My sister, Betsy, and I were in the Nazi concentration camp at Ravensbruck because we committed the crime of loving Jews. Seven hundred of us from Holland, France, Russia, Poland and Belgium were herded into a room built for two hundred. As far as I knew, Betsy and I were the only two representatives of Heaven in that room.
We may have been the Lord’s only representatives in that place of hatred, yet because of our presence there, things changed. Jesus said, “In the world you shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world” (John 16:33)

We too, are to be overcomers – bringing the light of Jesus into a world filled with darkness and hate.
Sometimes I get frightened as I read the Bible, and as I look in this world and see all of the tribulation and persecution promised by the Bible coming true. Now I can tell you, though, if you too are afraid, that I have just read the last pages. I can now come to shouting “Hallelujah! Hallelujah!” for I have found where it is written that Jesus said,
“He that overcomes shall inherit all things: and I will be His God, and he shall be My son.” (Revelation 21:7)
This is the future and hope of this world. Not that the world will survive – but that we shall be overcomers in the midst of a dying world.

Betsy and I, in the concentration camp, prayed that God would heal Betsy who was so weak and sick.
“Yes, the Lord will heal me,” Betsy said with confidence.
She died the next day and I could not understand it. They laid her thin body on the concrete floor along with all the other corpses of the women who died that day.
It was hard for me to understand, to believe that God had a purpose for all that. Yet because of Betsy’s death, today I am traveling all over the world telling people about Jesus.

There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.
In China, the Christians were told, “Don’t worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured.” Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,
“We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution, rather than telling them Jesus would come first. Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution, how to stand when the tribulation comes, to stand and not faint.”

I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it. We are next.

Since I have already gone through prison for Jesus’ sake, and since I met the Bishop in China, now every time I read a good Bible text I think, “Hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation.” Then I write it down and learn it by heart.
When I was in the concentration camp, a camp where only twenty percent of the women came out alive, we tried to cheer each other up by saying, “Nothing could be any worse than today.” But we would find the next day was even worse. During this time a Bible verse that I had committed to memory gave me great hope and joy.
If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler; but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name. (1 Peter 4:14-15)

I found myself saying, “Hallelujah! Because I am suffering (for the name of Christ), Jesus is glorified!”
In America, the churches sing, “Let the congregation escape tribulation”, but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.

Several years ago I was in Africa in a nation where a new government had come into power. The first night I was there some of the Christians were commanded to come to the police station to register. When they arrived they were arrested and that same night they were executed. The next day the same thing happened with other Christians. The third day it was the same. All the Christians in the district were being systematically murdered.
The fourth day I was to speak in a little church. The people came, but they were filled with fear and tension. All during the service they were looking at each other, their eyes asking, “Will this one I am sitting beside be the next one killed? Will I be the next one?”

The room was hot and stuffy with insects that came through the screenless windows and swirled around the naked bulbs over the bare wooden benches. I told them a story out of my childhood.
“When I was a little girl, I went to my father and said, “Daddy, I am afraid that I will never be strong enough to be a martyr for Jesus Christ.”
“Tell me,” said Father, “When you take a train trip to Amsterdam, when do I give you the money for the ticket? Three weeks before?”
“No, Daddy, you give me the money for the ticket just before we get on the train.”
“That is right,” my father said, “and so it is with God’s strength. Our Father in Heaven knows when you will need the strength to be a martyr for Jesus Christ. He will supply all you need, just in time.”

My African friends were nodding and smiling. Suddenly a spirit of joy descended upon that church and the people began singing, “In the sweet, by and by, we shall meet on that beautiful shore.”
Later that week, half the congregation of that church was executed. I heard later that the other half was killed some months ago.

But I must tell you something. I was so happy that the Lord used me to encourage these people, for unlike many of their leaders, I had the word of God. I had been to the Bible and discovered that Jesus said He had not only overcome the world, but to all those who remained faithful to the end, He would give a crown of life.

How can we get ready for the persecution?
First we need to feed on the Word of God, digest it, and make it a part of our being. This will mean disciplined Bible study each day as we not only memorize long passages of scripture, but put the principles to work in our lives.

Next we need to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not just the Jesus of yesterday, the Jesus of History, but the life-changing Jesus of today who is still alive and sitting at the right hand of God.

We must be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is not an optional command of the Bible, it is absolutely necessary. Those earthly disciples could never have stood up under the persecution of the Jews and Romans had they not waited for Pentecost. Each of us needs our own personal Pentecost, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We will never be able to stand in the tribulation without it.
In the coming persecution we must be ready to help each other and encourage each other. But we must not wait until the tribulation comes before starting. The fruit of the Spirit should be the dominant force of every Christian’s life.

Many are fearful of the coming tribulation. They want to run. I, too, am a little bit afraid when I think that after all my eighty years, including the horrible Nazi concentration camp that I might have to go through the tribulation also. But then I read the Bible and I am glad.

When I am weak, then I shall be strong, the Bible says. Betsy and I were prisoners for the Lord, we were so weak, but we got power because the Holy Spirit was on us. That mighty inner strengthening of the Holy Spirit helped us through. No, you will not be strong in yourself when the tribulation comes. Rather, you will be strong in the power of Him who will not forsake you. For seventy-six years I have known the Lord Jesus and not once has He ever left me, or let me down.
Though He slay me, I will hope in Him. (Job 13:15)

I know that to all who overcome, He shall give the crown of life. Hallelujah!

– Corrie Ten Boom – 1974
_________________

Bro Blaine

Blessings, for your calm and rational comment. There can be no gain in disputing/debating whether The Bible teaches a post or pre tribulation. One needs to grasp that Corrie Ten Boom went through what she must have felt was the Great Tribulation.

I believe, that as Children of God, we will have various differences in regards to The Word and our understanding of it. However let it not detract from the most important factor, Jesus Christ IS the Son of God and He died on the Cross for our sins. Pre or Post Tribulation is not and never will affect our Salvation.

_________________
Chris