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Krautfrau writes...........
"I have just read Tozer's book and there is nothing of the sort that Colin is claiming.
Tozer is speaking of the interior life of keeping our mind's eye on Jesus, which is what the Christian mystics of the past taught, which will lead us onto the pathway of becoming holy which has no correlation at all in eastern religions, being as they are, uninterested in the concept of sin.
It is a shame that a spiritual man like Tozer who has encouraged many on the path of seeking righteousness has had his reputation denigrated on this forum. "
I wholeheartedly agree sister. The accusation against Tozer really just boggles the mind to anyone who has read him. Yet here is the thing I considered as I walked and prayed this morning. Saints all down through the ages have been falsely accused, maligned and had contempt poured upon them. I pray that I would be worthy enough to fall into the category that is maligned and falsely accused rather than be counted with those who falsely accuse and malign. And the wonder of it all was that those who found themselves falsely accused, loved their accusers. This can only be achieved by the Spirit of God. May the Lord pour out that Spirit upon us, and this would surely be an act of grace.............bro Frank
If Tozer is speaking of the interior life, of keeping our mind's eye on Jesus, then one would have to ask what the mind's eye is and what the interior life is?
All these words are rubbish if we do not know what they mean. Does anyone really know what they mean or are we just repeating what we read?
In my own understanding I think that Colin is right to be concerned. Whether he is right about the Kundalini claim also needs to be thought about. What is the Kundalini spirit really? Does anyone actually know or are we once again just using words?
As for the idea that the "practise" of inwardly looking at Jesus leads to a holy life, I reject completely. Has anyone on here actually spent any genuine time in solitary mediation for months on end to experience these things? Or are we just using words again and skipping over there meaning. Tozer may very well make the claim that it is not necessary to have a monastic experience physically in the sense that Brother Lawrence did, but who knows what that means? Is it really possible to find Christ in you? If so where in you? If it is in your mind then you have abrogated truth already.
Finally why ought Colin not to say what he believes? Who said that expressing a concern either amounts to a judgement unto condemnation or a false accusation? Why cannot such a saying as Colin has made simple be a sincere one borne out of some deeper knowledge of his own?
I appreciate that these kinds of claims by Brother Lawrence are profound and they do have real meaning, but who has actually experienced them without inducing a state of mind which is the counterfeit of true spiritual depth.
Lo I call Him deep unto Deep
Never tiring, never sleep
The place that Lawrence is speaking of cannot be found by looking for it as though the natural mind knows where to find God. It can only be comprehended in the spirit. Likewise it can only be walked in daily by bringing the mind into obedience in all things and not simple by focusing on Christ. The mind is not the instrument by which Christ is comprehended.
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|  2014/7/18 20:53 | |
| | Re: | | Amrkelly,
Our brother was not " expressing a concern." He stated that Tozer's teaching was " a Kundalini spirit." You think accusing a brother of teaching and sharing a demonic spirit is " expressing a concern?" I think you are way of base brother, or perhaps you believe that Tozer taught demonic teachings? If you have read Tozer ( not quotes from discernment sites) and that is you opinion, then that is fine, let us know what you think and let the Body of Christ here decide if they think it is a false accusation or not. I have read around 30 Tozer books, and there is not one instance where he teaches a kundalina spirit or "solitary mediation for months." ............bro Frank |
| | 2014/7/18 21:36 | | Oracio
Member
Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA
| | Re: | | I read the Pursuit of God a few times as a newer Christian and I remember thinking positively of it, especially the parts that bring deep conviction of sin. However, I do believe there is a valid concern regarding Tozer's endorsement of Catholic mystics. That kind of endorsement can lead to much confusion and stumbling of believers who are not mature in the faith. My reasoning is that we don't need to endorse or share writings of medieval Catholic monks to teach any of God's truths. There is no question that during the time of Brother Lawrence the RCC was fully established in full apostasy.
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Oracio
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| | 2014/7/18 22:04 | Profile | drifter
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Nigel Holland
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| | 2014/7/18 22:12 | Profile | drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 1025
Campbell River, B.C.
| | Re: | | sermonindex said: "True saints have been and still are in what we deem today as the Catholic Church." Am I misunderstanding you, or are you advocating catholicism? The catholic church is antichrist, the priests dope men's souls and send them to hell, the pope and the Jesuits have fomented wars, established dictatorships, toppled governments, assassinated presidents and kings, advocated genocide, created depressions and insidiously rule the world from behind the scenes. Many people have either said to me, or it has at least been their attitude, "if you strongly protest the catholic church, you are not having a christian attitude." When people say that, I know it is the spirit of antichrist influencing them. Every true christian must stand up against "Mystery, Babylon the great" and warn people to "come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her deeds, and that ye receive not of her plagues." No true catholic can be a true christian at the same time. If you think they can, then you are saying that it is okay to worship graven images, to pray to the 'virgin' Mary and to saints, salvation by works and all the other awful, soul-damning heresy that the catholic church promulgates.
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Nigel Holland
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| | 2014/7/18 22:25 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
Our brother was not " expressing a concern." He stated that Tozer's teaching was " a Kundalini spirit." You think accusing a brother of teaching and sharing a demonic spirit is " expressing a concern?" I think you are way of base brother, or perhaps you believe that Tozer taught demonic teachings? If you have read Tozer ( not quotes from discernment sites) and that is you opinion, then that is fine, let us know what you think and let the Body of Christ here decide if they think it is a false accusation or not. I have read around 30 Tozer books, and there is not one instance where he teaches a kundalina spirit or "solitary mediation for months." ............bro Frank
I have no idea whether Colin was expressing a concern or not! I asked a rhetorical question. Only Colin knows what he fully intended to say and why.
I haven't visited any discernment sites of late, and the few times that I have I have found too much nonsense and blatant inaccuracies to trust a word of them. On the other hand I have no idea what a supposed discernment site is. What is more Frank I do not care to know.
As for Tozer I have read a few of his books going back some thirty years. I have absolutely no opinion at this moment and no especial recollection as to anything he may have said.
Lastly Frank you agreed with a statement made by Brenda and that had to do with the mind being the instrument by which men focus on Christ. As a matter of far greater importance than trying to discern others thoughts from a distance of many miles I tend to read their words and from that I can usually see what may be problematic with what they have said. So on that basis it is an easy thing to share my thoughts without having to second guess someones actual real intentions or else whether they have become a vehicle for the devil.
When I do read something and comment on what I read, the response may well make it necessary to exercise my spirit in order to understand things better, especially how best to approach a person. On the other hand words carry real meaning apart from what an individual intends by them or even understands them to mean. Satan makes use of the real meanings of words which are implicit in the very way the brain itself processes speech. In other words a statement which asserts that the deep experience of Christ, which Tozer and Lawrence, Nee, Guyon and others speak of, is carried out in the mind, has real and serious implications because it is simple not true.
I know this because I was saved in a cell and spent nearly a year in that solitary condition alone with the Lord for company. Which is why I can relate to Brother Lawrence and is precisely why I can relate and see the need of Tozer to assert that solitude is not a prerequisite for the deeper life. Being in a solitary place is no guarantee of anything, nor does the market place exclude the reality of knowing Christ in the inner man. I have by God's grace the benefit of both things. The cell and the city are equally fine to me.
The seriousness of saying that the mind is the instrument by which a man "gazes" on Christ is to miss the reality that the Holy Spirit does not dwell in the mind. Paul speaks of being renewed in our thinking, but he also speaks of being renewed in the spirit of the mind. Paul also tells us that we have the mind of Christ. It is clear that unless God Himself brings about this deeper and fully intimate experience of Christ within, we are at risk of inducing a counterfeit effect and therein lays the opportunity for demonic spirits who operate in and through the natural mind.
I think that Colin may have been better saying something less emphatic, nevertheless he may have good reason to believe what he is saying. Unless I read every Tozer book, according to your estimation I have no authority to comment. I cannot and do not trust the majority of websites because they are mostly nonsense or repetitive lies perpetuated by an ever increasing number of men and women who appear to have lost touch with real people.
Anyway Frank I am happy to go back to my meditations and endless "gazing" into the deep abyss of the soul if only to remind myself why Christ died. As I look inward Frank all I see is the flesh. By what instrument will I see Christ if I look inward by my own effort? Dangerous stuff mysticism and deep contemplation just scrapes the bottom of the barrel. There are more fools peddling it than you can shake a stick at. The ones I have met were little short of witches in need of a good soul massage. Give them one and you are a god too. Tell them to take their sorceries away and you become an object of fear or derision. Rarely do they repent. It is a deep sickness of the soul and only the cross can break its power. The real thing on the other hand is wonderful and full of revelation of God and Christ. I believe that Brother Lawrence is expressing the real thing. I have no idea about Tozer.
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| | 2014/7/18 22:34 | | sermonindex
Moderator
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Posts: 39795
Canada
Online! | | Re: | | Quote:
sermonindex said: "True saints have been and still are in what we deem today as the Catholic Church." Am I misunderstanding you, or are you advocating catholicism?
Brother, I was not promoting Catholicism in anyway but simply stating that as evangelicals we need to learn balance on not throwing out all of church history as Catholic. Most evangelicals do not read early christian leader writings because they think its the Catholic church and that is false. So I was just trying to encourage us not to just throw out the baby with the bathwater.
The 1600's reformation was not perfect by any means and we still have much to learn of true Church history and the ways of God.
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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| | 2014/7/18 22:36 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Okay amrkelly, here is the direct quote from colin speaking for some reason in the third person..........
"murrcolr calls that “The Kundalini awakening” and that's why he rejects the book."
The book in question is Pursuit of God. Colin claims he rejects this book because it teaches the demonic.
You write.......
" words carry real meaning apart from what an individual intends by them or even understands them to mean. Satan makes use of the real meanings of words which are implicit in the very way the brain itself processes speech."
I agree. The quote from Colin is real words with real meaning and leaves no doubt as to what Colin means. I reject what Colin says about Tozer as a false accusation. And I call upon the brother to repent of that. I shall say no more about it and leave it between the brother and God. The false accusation was made publicly therefore it was rebuked publicly..........bro Frank |
| | 2014/7/18 23:49 | | Oracio
Member
Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA
| | Re: | | Quote:
The charismatic catholic movement for instance did not all leave the catholic church. There are wheat and tares in all churches and some more then others.
Brother Greg, sincerely I ask, do you mean to say that the charismatic catholic movement is a legitimate movement within Christianity? For example, if there were such a group nearby would you be willing to fellowship with them as brothers and sisters without warning them to come out of the RCC? From what I understand the charismatic catholic movement still holds firmly to all the teachings of the official RCC Catechism. As such I would not deem that movement to be truly Christian in any sense.
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Oracio
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| | 2014/7/19 0:51 | Profile | murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK
| | Re: | | Quote krautfrau: I have just read Tozer's book and there is nothing of the sort that Colin is claiming.
So what is he describing in his book krautfrau
Quote krautfrau: Tozer is speaking of the interior life of keeping our mind's eye on Jesus, which is what the Christian mystics of the past taught, which will lead us onto the pathway of becoming holy.
The pathway to becoming Holy, following the principles of the purgative, illuminative, and unitive ways?
Have you found this Secret way, does it come through quiet meditation, until it forms a habit of inwardly gazing upon God. Have you been ushered onto a new level of spiritual life, have you found yourself out of adjustment to the ways of the world, with an awareness of nothingness as you went through interior purification? But then a new power arose in you with its upsurgings and outgoings as you connected to the divine essence the light that lives within all men?
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Colin Murray
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| | 2014/7/19 0:56 | Profile |
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