Thanks everyone for the input. It has been very helpful.

_________________
Robert Wurtz II

Brother Robert,

I agree with you that there is an information overload going on. There is a mental search for more information, and now with the internet, this knowledge is right at our fingertips. The problem is that just getting information can be dangerous because it can put us in a false postion of thinking that we know God but in reality it is really mental assent. We need to get quite before God, hear the voice of the Holy Spirit, and allow the Holy Spirit to open our eyes and give us revelation.

Mike

_________________
Mike

_________________
Mike Compton

Thanks again to everyone for the input.

_________________
Robert Wurtz II

Gredo House Ministries has listen noetic theology as its theological word of the day. The meaning isn’t really a very difficult one to lay hold of from a theological perspective. It has been summed up simply as the effect of sin on the mind and postulates that this effect amounts to the mind being robbed of its power of reason to such an extent that the mind (man) suffers loss as a consequence. Nee’ book The Latent Power of the Soul speaks into that profoundly. Whist reading Mike Compton’ contribution to the thread regarding the Enlightenment of Europe and later, by reason the USA, I was struck by the seeming positive context in which this term was used. Specifically the context of post modern believers drawing back into a noetic or superstitious way of thinking about truth and the extent to which reason and effort play a part in acquiring it. In fact the very idea of it has been on my mind from that moment so that in the end I have to say something to it.

What I have to say is this:

The so-called noetic effect of sin without the exercise of faith, produces a reality of axiomatic outcomes being manifestly understood on the one hand as occult and on the other as enlightened reason. If you want to study a man whose mind perfectly demonstrates this then study Isaac Newton who is often presented as a sound christian as well as a scientist, mathematician and philosopher. Apart from the obvious great intellect and reason evident in his scientific endeavours one should look to his occult endeavours as well. Especially the thousands of papers which the Economist Keynes purchased at auction in London from Newtons niece' descendants. If reason and effort were of themselves going to produce an outcome of true enlightenment then Newton would have been your man. Yet Newton had as much interest in looking backwards as he ever intended to look ahead. No doubt as ignorant and ill informed as this will be seen, the so-called noetic effect is nothing more than the fallen condition of man. Likewise truth is no more than being renewed in your thinking.

Faith may be reasonable to a reasonable and inquiring mind. But in the end it is in truth a gift of God which if exercised produces the most reasonable outcome. Hope this does not interfere with your efforts Robert.


Edit Added Link URL Re Above comments on Newton the man of enlightenment. Please see the very last comment by Keynes.

http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Extras/Keynes_Newton.html

_________________
Mike Compton

Hi Andrew,

_________________
Robert Wurtz II

_________________
Robert Wurtz II

It may seem we are detouring more then the subject of the thread should be stretched, but there is a reason here to dig a little deeper into the history of American religous thought. The idea or scheme I would like to lay out here is that American Evangelicism was really a synthesis between prior church doctrine and new Enlightenment doctrines.

I think Armkelly has pointed out the difficultly of talking about ideas like enlightenment and post-modernity, while at the same time putting her finger expertly on the essence of the matter in bringing up Isaac Newton. Newton is, in my little scheme, a perfect example of someone who tried to synthesize scientific thought with elements of faith...albeit some of his faith was directed outside of Christian doctrine, to such subjects as Alchemy.

Perhaps this seemed "reasonable" to him because ultimately he believed that, with enough diligence, all types of human knowledges, both natural and revealed, could be unified into one body of human truth.

So, again in my scheme, this belief or assumption in the certainty of knowable truth was what allowed 18th century emerging evangelicalism to cherry pick from the Enlightenments natural knowledges, without feeling an insurmountable contradiction in their own faith. The common link was belief in truth.

Much of this synthesis between natural and revealed truth was achieved by learning from science but not adopting scientism. An example of this synthesis can be found in Wesley, who cultivated himself with a broad reading habit, and Jonathan Edwards, who to this day is regarded as the colonies first true naturalist.

Evangelical Christianity could make good use of enlightenment political theory as well, sharing a mutual appreciation for religious tolerance, as well as a disdain for unchecked government power.

This synthesis culminated politically in the Constitution of the newly formed United States, where for almost 200 years, various evangelical forms of Christianity from Methodism to fundamentalism, to Pentecostalism, could exist with historically relatively low tension as part of the fabric of the nation...more or less. This is how many American Christians today have come to feel their nation was more or less founded on Christian principles,...because it partially was...And this is how liberals today feel America was founded on the idea of secular liberty...because it partially was...

Yet even after taking onto consideration the Enlightenments athiestic conclusions, it's philosophies still offered religion a more genteel posture of disagreement when compared to the barbaric persecutions of kings and popes in prior centuries. This tolerant temperament also invited synthesis between Christian belief and Enlightnement Philosophy.

Consider this gospelesque quote from the Enlightments exemplar book, the Encyclopédie...
"Reason is to the philosopher what grace is to the Christian... Other men walk in darkness; the philosopher, who has the same passions, acts only after reflection; he walks through the night, but it is preceded by a torch. The philosopher forms his principles on an infinity of particular observations. He does not confuse truth with plausibility; he takes for truth what is true, for forgery what is false, for doubtful what is doubtful, and probable what is probable. The philosophical spirit is thus a spirit of observation and accuracy." (Philosophers, Dumarsais)

By the early 19th century the synthesis of christianity and enlightnement produced a millennial theology in which the gospel and science would go hand in hand in bringing the light of Christian civilzation to a dark primitive world. Reason and Grace became the single shared light.. Americans both religious and non religious were enthralled as Sameul Morse successfully tested hisscientific invention of the telegraph with the enthusiastic expression "What hath God Wrought!"

But after the horrors of the American Civil war, and Darwin's Origins, the synthesis became strained. Evangelicalism entered into the 20th century disenchanted with "progress" and became stretched to the breaking point between two poles. And soon after, by the latter half of the 20th century everyone else was also growing disenchanted with "progress"

And so, having first been disenchanted by religion, and then by scientism, modern western man became "post-modern." convservative Evangelicals are of course mostly disenchanted with the ideologies of science, but not disenchanted with their own biblical faith...and in that sense we are not fully post-modern....but we feel adrift in our own age and culture..

If I seemed positive about either the enlightenment or post-modernism, I apologize; I was trying to affect ambivilance. These things simply are as they are. However, if there is one thing in Post Modernity to be positive about, it is the disenchantment with unreasonable faith in mans own self certainty.

Part of what I saw Robert achieving, with his review of the history of televangelism, was to help the last few remaining practitioners in the experiment of mass evangelism to face the music, and finally accept the spiritual impotence of technology and political connections. The synthesis Is over.

Blessings,

MC

_________________
Mike Compton

I think that's a word there bro. Mike.

_________________
Robert Wurtz II