This has been a profitable discussion but I want to bring caution to myself and any others who have an ear...that we do not give the impression that we are saved by virtue of us having a special kind of hungering or a greater desire to know the truth.

I personally can attest to my own experience in that I was minding my own business so to speak when the Lord saw fit, in His mercy to "wake me up" from my sleep. I didn't do anything to deserve this, on the contrary, I deserved to die in my sins for my utter rebellion and hypocrisy. Yet, He loves me so much that He want after me and broke into my sin filled, self-righteous darkness and shook me from my slumber.

I do not have the theological explanation of why he had mercy on me and why I responded in faith...all I can say is that I am grateful beyond any words can explain. I know that it was nothing that I did to merit His love or His mercy. It was not anything that I did to bring about the salvation of my soul and the life that He gave me by the Holy Spirit. And likewise I know now that I am "being saved" by the exactly the same process...it is Christ in me, this life I live I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave His life for me. We are saved by faith in Christ and until the day He calls us home, we continue to draw our Life from Him, and Him alone by trusting Him for everything. May He encourage us to continually draw near in faith, believing Him to provide all that pertains to life and godliness in Christ Jesus.

In Him,
Mark

Christ was with the 12 and upon them, He lived with them ate with them and fellowshipped with them for three and a half years, but He was not in them. The Father had to give birth to the incorruptable Seed in the believer after Christ was with them, died, resurrected, and returned to the Father. That is when The Father answered the Son's prayer and the Holy Spirit came at pentecost and upon them as tongues of fire and was baptized into them. Then the Spirit of Christ was birthed in us also, now complete, being baptized into One Spirit we are the offspring of God.

Acts 2:3-4 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Filled and in them forever.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The Spirit of God, The Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit in all that are baptized into this One Spirit, One God, the Three in one.

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The Spirit of Christ unto new life and the Holy Spirit Parakleet the teacher of this Mystery hidden from all time until revealed to Paul, which is Christ in you the hope of glory.

Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

In Christ: Phillip; not with the One Spirit upon but fully in me forever by the Fathers perfect plan, even before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

_________________
Phillip

Hi Mark

Quote :Is this the same as being born again? Is it instant or ongoing? What does it mean that "he who endures to the end shall be saved"? Can a person lose their salvation? Is it possible to believe in Christ but yet not be truly born again? Of course, but that would mean that we only think we believe, but do not indeed have saving faith, or rather do not have the faith that produces salvation.
1) "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name."
2) "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test?"
3) "that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith..." END QUOTE

I had the same experience as you and have asked myself the same questions and I believe born again is not the same as saved.


I think there are three stages to salvation - salvation from sin that is as Christ died to save us from sin.

We see the three stages in the disciples.

One: We hear the call of Christ and we come to Him for forgiveness of PAST SINS. We start to follow Him as did the disciples but we are not yet united with Him (we have to catch up with Him first) We do this by following the light within and obeying it which leads to more light.

Two: Christ breathes on us the Holy Spirit and we are born again. However we are still not indwelt in fullness. This point is also called illumination.

Three: Pentecost and release from the presence and not just the power of sin. This is full salvation and the only way the scriptures can be understood without contradiction. This is the point of full union with Christ and when the power of God is upon us mightily and which we are not seeing nowadays.

I typically answer this question, with a question; 'were the disciples 'in' Christ while Christ walked the earth?' Were they baptized by one Spirit into His one Body while He was on earth? We know that if any man be in Christ he/she is a new creature; so who was 'in Christ' when Christ was on the earth?

_________________
Robert Wurtz II

Mark, Caution isn't necessary nor is the mentioning of "self-righteousness" to anyone who knows what the issues are that surround initial salvation. So lets lay that aside and know that God rewards, gives favor, to those who diligently seek Him. That is not arguable.

The second thing I see is you overlook the foreknowledge of God in your testimony. One cannot do that and still get understanding as to why God chose them when, in such sin we find ourselves, after a 'profession' of Faith in Christ. To this I can personally attest to__and for which I am eternally grateful He saw beyond my sin to my eventual contriteness [come to my senses] that He would not despise__and He wouldn't because He [fore]knew I would meaning business. Can you see what I am getting at? It was at that time, I believe, He chose me simply because I can't explain my life as it now is, consumed in Him. I know I have received something that simply repeating a sinners prayer does not accord that one who believes he is born again by saying it. Consider the empty pews in today's churches left empty by those who claim salvation but a have fishing date they would rather keep.

by RobertW on 2012/10/26 4:42:00

I typically answer this question, with a question; 'were the disciples 'in' Christ while Christ walked the earth?' Were they baptized by one Spirit into His one Body while He was on earth? We know that if any man be in Christ he/she is a new creature; so who was 'in Christ' when Christ was on the earth?

No one except perhaps by a fallible personal relationship. cf John 6:66, [even Peter]. It could not have been otherwise since the Holy Spirit had not yet been given; Jesus had not yet been Glorified to make it possible. cf John 20:22.

Hi Krautfrau!

I can readily relate to your post, that is except for this part:

"I think there are three stages to salvation - salvation from sin that is as Christ died to save us from sin.

One: We hear the call of Christ and we come to Him for forgiveness of PAST SINS. We start to follow Him as did the disciples but we are not yet united with Him (we have to catch up with Him first) We do this by following the light within and obeying it which leads to more light."

Question: How can we "follow the light" within without receiving such light by the New Birth? Might you not have been simultaneously been born again at the time of coming to Christ for His "forgiveness of sins"? Otherwise, what or who is the light you would believe inside you? Would not a confirming word be in order? I'm just asking because I too, have wrestled with this issue. P.s. Now knowing the scriptures has cleared it all up__Thank God!

by Christinyou on 2012/10/25 18:06:07

"Christ was with the 12 and upon them, He lived with them ate with them and fellowshipped with them for three and a half years, but He was not in them."

Nor could He have possibly been "upon" them. This spoken to the Disciples by Jesus who He had previous administered the "new Birth" from above in John 20:22:

Read Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:4,5. Follow it up with Acts 2.

Mark

Scripture tells us that Christ is the light which lights all men that come into the world. John 1:9 If we do not quench that light it will bring us to salvation. It works in all men till they turn away.

"by krautfrau on 2012/10/26 6:01:14

Mark

Scripture tells us that Christ is the light which lights all men that come into the world. John 1:9 If we do not quench that light it will bring us to salvation. It works in all men till they turn away."

Excellent verse of scripture, krautfrau!

I wonder if we might call that "light" a "measure of faith" in God given all men? I ask because many have such faith, who live by it, and I believe are justified by it per Rom. 5:1, yet never have never heard of Jesus. What do you think?