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 Re:

Quote:
I was pretty shocked and disappointed to read this by Spurgeon. He approaches it from a very antagonistic view and flatly called those who follow Jesus, but did not agree with his view of Calvinism, "enemies". WOW!

really..?!?!?! Spike a gun and turn it on the enemy... those who do not embrace his views on the topic....wow.



I take it that you have not read many of Spurgeon's sermons before today, Solomon? Up until our over senstive and easily offended age preachers often used language that we would consider to be inflammatory. What you quoted from Spurgeon is pretty mild by comparison to others of that age and before.

We've just become soft and feminized and cant handle it.

Krispy

 2012/5/7 16:07









 Re:

Quote:
It doesn't mean that and unregenerate person can't choose between evil or good. Even though any good they may do, will do absolutely nothing in regards to salvation.



Yes, thats true, but good by human standards... yes. But human good is filthy rags to God. Thru our eyes we can say mother Teresa chose to do good, and certainly that would be a true statement. But in God's eyes, and compared to HIS goodness, it was a heap of trash.

Krispy

 2012/5/7 16:10
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

In answer to Makrothumia we had a discussion about 5 years ago in these forums that exposes a lot of the reasons why these conversations go in circles. It is well worth a look.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=13000&forum=36&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/5/7 16:42Profile









 Re:

They do go in circles, dont they!

I'm not interested in debating this issue. All I wanted to do guys is clear up a couple of misconceptions that were being voiced.

We are brethren... I love my pentecostal brethren, and my fundamentalist brethren, and my arminian brethren. I rest at night knowing that in heaven we will all come together as Calvinists!

:-)

Krispy

 2012/5/7 16:49
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

I have a feeling that we will not have any man-made label when we are with the Father... :)


_________________
Christiaan

 2012/5/7 17:52Profile
Onesetfree
Member



Joined: 2011/11/18
Posts: 31
Canada

 Re:

"I'm not interested in debating this issue. All I wanted to do guys is clear up a couple of misconceptions that were being voiced.

We are brethren... I love my pentecostal brethren, and my fundamentalist brethren, and my arminian brethren. I rest at night knowing that in heaven we will all come together as Calvinists!

:-)

Krispy"

Amen Krispy! Amen....



_________________
Steve

 2012/5/7 22:13Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Krispy:

Quote:
Well played... took the words right out of my mouth!

We do have to be careful with the writings of the early church fathers. Their writings were not inspired and often times they promoted things that eventually warped into Catholic doctrine. On top of that it is very dangerous to quote one sentence in a rather large document or writing and hold that up for all to see with no context at all.



Ah-ha, that is true! They were not inspired writings. I don't think Calvin's writings were inspired, either.


Quote:
By the way, it's a very common misconception for people to think that Reformed Theology (i.e. Calvinsim) does not teach free will. In fact, it does. An unregenerate man has a choice to make. The problem is that according to scripture the unregenerate man is dead. He has no choice but to choose sin. A dead man can not change himself. Only God can. Once God touches a man's heart that man is then enabled by God to choose obedience.



Can an unregenerate man "RECEIVE"? We are not talking about sinning when we talk about John 1:12. We were created as receptive creatures and we choose to receive from one of two sources. His own, chose not to receive Him, but others chose TO RECEIVE Him.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

"Did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?".

Faith is integral to "Receiving" as Paul here is taking the Galatians back to their initial receptivity of Jesus Christ by faith (and not works).

Does the Bible say that God has given every man a measure of faith?

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

If all men have a measure of faith and faith is integral to receiving Jesus, why can't men, when confronted with the truth, choose to receive Jesus? In fact, this is what they do.

Receiving is linked with believing faith.

Now, God commands men everywhere to repent.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Now if man has Total Inability (that is really what is meant by Total Depravity) to yield to God's command then why is God commanding men to repent?

I guess this is all men can do:
Lam 3:26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

Just hope that they were Unconditionally Elected.

Although, this man questioned other men as to what the course was that he should take.
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

So, do we tell people to wait and hope for God's salvation or do we tell them what they need to do to get saved?

The difference between the Bible and Calvinism is that in the Bible the sinner believes and is saved and in Calvinism the sinner hopes that he is one of the "elect" and then waits for God to save him, IF he is.

If a man has free choice to reject Jesus Christ as Savior, then why does he not have the same free choice to accept and receive Him as Savior?

The problem with Calvinism is not what it teaches about the the Depravity of man, for Wesley, Arminius and Calvin all agree on the fallen state of man. But the problem with Calvinism is what it teaches ABOUT the result of this depravity. Total Depravity insists that man does not have a free will to trust Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.

Does this "depraved sinner" who has never heard the Gospel, have "ability"?

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Even God recognized that the wicked could do good.
Gen 31:24 And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night, and said unto him, Take heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad.

The principle of right action with a deceitful and wicked heart was confirmed by Jesus Christ.
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

In the ultimate sense Jesus Christ is the only man who ever lived without sin (Heb 4:16) and always "went about doing good" (Acts 10:38). He was good because He was God. (Mark 10:18)

As Calvinist Donald Grey Barnhouse explains, "Total Depravity does not mean that there is no good in man, but that there is no good in man that can satisfy God."

Calvinists get around the clear teaching of scripture by overwhelming it with theological terms. They have invented a difference between "relatively good works" and "truly good works."

Regarding depravity: Man sins by his own volition and desire, not because his will can only follow his nature. The problem with the will is whether to yield to the flesh or not.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Pilgrim

 2012/5/8 0:43Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1866


 Re:

the contex ,of the verse that says god deals to each man a measure of faith ,,is the elect is delt a mesure of faith ,,the supanatural capasity to believe and trust in a supanatute gosple and a supanatural god ,this the nature man can not recieve ,,the natural man cannot not receive the things of the spirit as paul said ,,and jesus said these words i speak to you are spirit ,,

repentance is granted as the apostal paul said by god himself ,,,,to repent from sin ,,ones needs the conviction of the holy spirit which is the spirits minastry

with out conviction of the spirit one can never repent in a bibilical way
so in its fullest scence ,the natural man can only sin till god grants repentance ,iluminates ,and shows the man his sins

roms 2 is talking about us the gentiles who are under law towards christ and not lost sinners


what ever is not for the glory of god ,is sin

and that is the state of the natural man ,his motavation is never to do good for the glory of god as a primary motavation ,,,for he is a child of wrath ,,indwelt with the spirit of the prince and the power of the air ,which is the spirit that worketh in the sons of disobedance

a child of wrath acts according to this spirit which is in every son and daughter of adam and visa verser

a child of wrath cant take out the old spirit
and he cant take out his old heart ,and wright gods laws on that heart

and untill this begines to to happen , he is bound to sin as the slave of sin that he is ,,he is a man of flesh to the core to the heart ,and sin is what springs forth from the man in ths condition ,,as good as he may apear with good works and nice words ,,it still remains sin ,he will still serve his master sin and satan ,till god interveans ,,,and when gods enterveans and begines to transfome the will and desires by supanatural workings of his spirit ,,some men irasistable chosse god after he choses them ,,and others resist the beginings of the working of the spirit to which as the bible say they were also apointed

its all of god ,, let god be true and let every man be a lier ,,,,and if the nature man be a lier ,he is stained,,and god does not concider his works as good ,,but hipocracy

blessings

 2012/5/8 1:18Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1866


 Re:

i think paul was clearly teaching that all men are not good ,,,and will not do good and will not and do not seek after god ,,,,he aplied this not only the sinning gentils ,but also to all the jews that every moouth may stoped ,,,,not in just the eary generatons of man ,not just in his gerneration,,,but all the generations ,,,the whole world is guilty and does not see after god nor do good accoring to the holy spirit

there is to be no such son of adam that arise from the seed of adam ,thats mouth should not be stoped by this scripture ,

paull say no we are as bad as the pagan idolerter

i have provedd to you paull says all are under sin and none are capable of doing good in this state of utter reblion ,,not even the jew

the whole race of men are under sin and fear not god

paul implys ,it goes with out even saying that gentiles who know not god are condemend,, but what the law says it says to us jews who are under the law ,,that even our self rightous mouths may be shut ,and we as gods chossen should stand with the gentils as guilty before god
10 As it is written:


“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”[b]
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; [c]
“The poison of asps is under their lips”; [d]
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”[f]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]


21 ,,the righoeousness of god apart from the law is now manfest,,,being witness by the law and propherts


the only good and righeous acts that men do are only done in christ accoring to grace and regeneration and accoring to his imputed righeousness everything out side this plan is utter sin and that is the state of the nature man dead in sin

roms 3.22 even the righeousness of god which is by faith unto all upon all who believe,,,
there is no god ordaind good people apart from those who are in christ ,accoring to the imputation of christs righteousness

all have sinned and fall short of gods glory
natural man actions allways fall short of the righteousness of god ,,,,he is the standared of good

natural mans actions do not come close to be called good

paris reiadhead talks about the humanisic prinicaple behind even the best actions of men who dont do acoring to the glory of god as a motavation

one drop of septic sewerage waste water into bucket of water defiles and makes the water bad ,even so one drop of sin in the nature of natural man spoils him ,and he is not axceptable to god in that state ,,,,nothing can the bucket do to change the foul water ,,if it remains like that it will only stagnate and get worse and worse ,,,but the one who made the bucket can tip the old water of self out and refil it with new wine ,that is exceptable to god

the old man with the adamic natural in his best state can in some cases want to do good ,he finds not the ability to perform that which is good ,,for his will is inslaved to his emotions and afections which are evil

it is not him who wills,nor him who runs but god who shows mercy

some one will say ,who can resists gods sovern will
is there unrigheousness with god ,,why does he still find fault

shale the think formed say to him who form it
whay have you made me this way

who are you to speak back to god
he has mercy on whom he will have mercy
and he hardends whom he hardens

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

the bondage of the will and predestanation and human depravity ,and persaverance of the saints are all lincks in the chain of gods sovernty

much blessings to all my brothers and sisters under all gods tabernacals of christian understanding


 2012/5/8 4:07Profile
David01-72
Member



Joined: 2012/3/23
Posts: 58
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
To deny that the two different theological claims don't cause division in the body would be dishonest. Therefor I must make a decision as to weather or not be apart of it, if it is worthy or not. As of right now I don't think it is because when I heard John Piper explain Calvinism as a new believer Satan immediately used it to show how God had not chosen me, of course, because I was unwanted! I must also say that other people who call themselves Christians are very ugly and wave a prideful banner of their Calvinist views and wear the banner loud and proud. I can't subscribe to that, and will not. However, I do love the truth that C H Spurgeon spells out. Blessed is our God and His Christ, our Lord Jesus!



I agree, I believe these theological claims can cause people's hearts to harden, especially to the new born doubting that they well be saved because of these men's theories. Its very dangerous to teach such a thing, remember
that we should be humble and treat each other with love. My brothers and sisters should we trust our salvation through these men and their theories or should we trust that by faith through Jesus Christ, Our purpose of being True Christians is that to preach the gospel to everyone. Its been eight months since i gave my life to the Lord. I have learned much by hearing sermons from this web site. But I know in my heart that Calvinist and Armenians may cause us new born to fall hard. Please don't get offended brothers and sisters. Im just saying what comes from my heart.

God Bless
David C


_________________
David Cisneros

 2012/5/8 14:56Profile





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