| Poster | Thread | philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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| | Re: | | Quote:
Here we go again, arguing over "terminology" rather than concepts, and realities. What if I'd named the thread "Can rock music glorify God?" or "Rock music being used as a tool for evangelism?"..would that have been more palatable?
You mis-read my spirit. There is a difference between argumentative and provocative. To put the word 'Christian' on something is to legitimise it in the minds of many. The real question is are some forms of music more conducive to spiritual welfare than others? Music essentially touches the soul and communicates emotion rather than information. Classical music, or moody-and-sankey, or modern ballad or rock-and-roll are no different to each other in this respect. The different genres will touch different kinds of souls.
In recent years a pattern has emerged where 'worship' is led by the 'worship band', but there is no essential link between worship and music; although there is a strong link between praise and music. Music should never be allowed to 'lead' the 'worship' but worship may be permitted 'lead' the music.
Let me make my position plain. I have a wide taste in music. I enjoy classical music and I have spent hundreds of hours on a 'Christian' radio station, as a player of a wide variety in music; country and western, blue grass, calypso, reggae, gentle rock. I am not afraid of any music as long as it fulfils its primary purpose of acting as a vehicle for intelligable truth . I am always mindful of the words. In the life of the spirit music must be a vehicle for intelligent communication of revelation or adoration; it is to be judged by its success in communicating truth not emotion.
BTW it was not the Wesleys who used drinking songs but William Booth and the Salvation Army. The Wesleys were much more 'cultured' in their background and their preference was for more 'classical' music. Not that one is more 'Christian' than the other.
Emotional states are easily communicated by music, but the acid test is how well was 'truth' communicated? According to Paul in 1 Corinthians edificated is effected by understanding not by emotional states.
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Ron Bailey
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|  2004/8/23 9:17 | Profile | sermonindex
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Online! | | Re: | | Quote:
BTW it was not the Wesleys who used drinking songs but William Booth and the Salvation Army. The Wesleys were much more 'cultured' in their background and their preference was for more 'classical' music. Not that one is more 'Christian' than the other.
Yes and the emphasis of doing that was for evangelistic reasons only (I would assume), they wouldnt sing all the hymns with wordly music behind it in their church because they "like" the beats or sound of the music.
Ron, great points on the soul, music certaintly does cater to that part of our being. Looking at the scriptures I cannot find a place where music is not used in worship without as you said 'intelligable truth' being conveyed to the hearers. Songs, Hymns, Spiritual songs all have a clear textual message, that can be profitably memorized.
Quote:
Emotional states are easily communicated by music, but the acid test is how well was 'truth' communicated? According to Paul in 1 Corinthians edificated is effected by understanding not by emotional states.
Thats another great point brother Ron! It goes like this in many circles now:
[b]Hearing[/b] of music produces emotion > (and then) the [b]words[/b] in that emotional state gain perhaps some signifigance but the foundation is music.
Where it should be:
[b]Hearing[/b] of the [b]words[/b] and music produces meditative reflection > (and then) after grasping the signifigance of the words produces emotion in response.
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I belive the difference between these two models can really shape how well truth is recieved and grounded in the spirit. This doesnt dismiss music but rather puts the emphasis spiritually where it should be. Words contain life and death not the sound of a string being plucked or drum being banged. Another intresting note is that the old hymn writers were known for their lyrical content which is a legacy until this day ie charles wesley. But the modern worship leaders are known for their music and beats rather than lyrics primarly.. take away the music sound from most of the [i]new[/i] worship now and what you are left with really isnt that edifying.
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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| | 2004/8/23 9:43 | Profile | sermonindex
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Online! | | Re: | | This is a post from [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/userinfo.php?uid=19]chadsepulveda[/url] he posted it in the wrong forum section and requested I move it:
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Actually,
Keith Green has an informative and helpful article on this subject. It is here...
http://lastdaysministries.org/articles/cangoduserockmusic.html
Hope it is helpful...
chad
ps. there are a ton of awesome articles on the Last Days webpage as well.
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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| | 2004/8/23 11:13 | Profile | sermonindex
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Online! | | Re: | | I had a great time worshipping at peoples church in toronto (the church Oswald J. Smith founded). They sing alot of contemprary songs but also sing some hymns inbetween usually only one. The other songs were good but what really stuck with me was the hymn that was sung.. I was thinking over the lyrics all the way home on the train.
[b]HOW FIRM A FOUNDATION[/b]
How firm a foundation, ye saints of the Lord,
Is laid for your faith in His excellent Word!
What more can He say than to you He hath said,
You, who unto Jesus for refuge have fled?
In every condition, in sickness, in health;
In povertys vale, or abounding in wealth;
At home and abroad, on the land, on the sea,
As thy days may demand, shall thy strength ever be.
Fear not, I am with thee, O be not dismayed,
For I am thy God and will still give thee aid;
Ill strengthen and help thee, and cause thee to stand
Upheld by My righteous, omnipotent hand.
When through the deep waters I call thee to go,
The rivers of woe shall not thee overflow;
For I will be with thee, thy troubles to bless,
And sanctify to thee thy deepest distress.
When through fiery trials thy pathways shall lie,
My grace, all sufficient, shall be thy supply;
The flame shall not hurt thee; I only design
Thy dross to consume, and thy gold to refine.
Even down to old age all My people shall prove
My sovereign, eternal, unchangeable love;
And when hoary hairs shall their temples adorn,
Like lambs they shall still in My bosom be borne.
The soul that on Jesus has leaned for repose,
I will not, I will not desert to its foes;
That soul, though all hell should endeavor to shake,
Ill never, no never, no never forsake.
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click here to hear the music for this hymn:
http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/h/f/hfirmafo.htm
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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| | 2004/8/23 11:57 | Profile | philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
Another intresting note is that the old hymn writers were known for their lyrical content which is a legacy until this day ie charles wesley. But the modern worship leaders are known for their music and beats rather than lyrics primarly.. take away the music sound from most of the new worship now and what you are left with really isnt that edifying.
I do enjoy quite a few modern 'worship' songs. Some of the modern hymns of Graham Kendrick or Stuart Townend have real substance to them. However, on the point of the beat... I have an old friend who is a very accomplished musician and who tends to prefer the older songs. He passed an interesting comment. He said, I like some of the new songs but we won't be able to sing them in prison. I said what do you mean. He explained (my apologies if I get it wrong) that so many new songs depend on the contra-beat and leave gaps for the band to an extent that they cannot be sung without orchestral accompaniment. If persecution comes, he said, and we find ourselves in prison without our bands, we won't be able to sing these hymns.
It was an odd but sobering reflection.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2004/8/23 12:29 | Profile | ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
| | Re: | | Thought this scripture was quite interesting in the light of what was said about music and words:
Every stroke the LORD lays on them
with his punishing rod
will be to the music of tambourines and harps,
as he fights them in battle with the blows of his arm.Isa 30:32
Zeke
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Zeke Oosthuis
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| | 2004/8/23 16:54 | Profile | Yodi
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Joined: 2004/4/23
Posts: 663
Escondido, California
| | Re: Relation? | | Ummm... explanation? I looked up this Scripture and... ummm... I don't understand why it was posted. It seems random. Am I missing something? In context, from what I read, chapter 30 of Isaiah is about the Lord's anger concerning those who relied on Egypt rather than in God. There's a bunch of... anologies used to describe like,
(v. 13) "Therefore this iniquity shall be to you [b]like[/b] a breach ready to fall, a bulge in a high wall, whose breaking comes suddenly, in an instant."
(v. 14) "And He shall break it [b]like[/b] the breaking of the potter's vessel, which is broken in pieces..."
(v. 28) "His breath is [b]like[/b] an overflowing stream, which reaches up to the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of futility; and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err."
Now are these verses literally about breaches, bulges, vessels, streams, bridles, tambourines and harps? Ummm... from what I gather - no. They're illustrations. So, I mean, did you think this was just a cool verse? Help me, I don't understand?!
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Yolanda Fields
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| | 2004/8/23 17:31 | Profile | Tears_of_joy
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Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554
| | Re: Christian rock - Driven to darkness | | [url=http://www.tscpulpitseries.org/english/1980s/ts870803.html]Christian Rock - Driven to Darkness by David Wilkerson[/url]
It is preached August 3,1987! When I was reading this, 9 months ago, it was like reading my own thoughts! I was glad about that but in the same time my heart was and it is in grieve about these things that are happening today in the church!
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| | 2004/8/23 19:02 | Profile | Endy9
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Joined: 2004/8/21
Posts: 15
| | Re: | | Sermonindex,
How Firm A Foundation has always been my favorite hymn, because of the lyrics! |
| | 2004/8/23 21:20 | Profile | Endy9
Member
Joined: 2004/8/21
Posts: 15
| | Re: | | Maybe it is an urban myth, but I've always heard that the tune to Amazing Grace was originally a roudy bar song. |
| | 2004/8/23 21:27 | Profile |
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