| Poster | Thread | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
I'm done with it, I am finished with the world. Have your concscience clear before God.
Beloved,
[i]"The world is about to burn and its foundations shaken by the Almighty Hand of God and Christians sit nonchalantly before their TV idol wasting precious time. How Satan and the hordes of hell must laugh with glee at the sight of millions of Christians sitting before their Babylonian Idol Box LOOSING their ZEAL for God." [/i](Set the Trumpet To they Mouth; David Wilkerson, 1995 P.79).
Beloved and faithful in the Lord, you're liable to be sitting in front of some filthy movie and the Spirit of God lift right off you. We are living in times when the judgment of God could hit at any second. And JUDGMENT will begin at the house of God. I can't do it anymore. My knees would knock together sitting watching some sin before my eyes. I've vexed the Holy Ghost all I'm going to. We can't even come to God without the Holy Spirit. The salt has lost all the savor its going to in my life.
Think about Hebrews 5 where we find the people refusing to exercise (control) their senses and end up needing to go back on the Milk of God's word again. The Meat belongs to those who by reason of using the word- exercise their senses to discern good and evil.
I have to agree with you Bro. Greg. I have to let the word speak and say that when we love the world and the things of this world 1 John 2 says the love of the Father is not in us. Friendship with the world is enmity against God. Wherefor come out from among them and be ye seperate saith the Lord, touch not the unclean thing and I will receive you. Psalm 101 I will set no evil thing before mine eyes. Blessed is the man that condemeth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And again- let us lay aside EVERY weight and the sin that does so easily beset us. Neither be ye partakers of other men's sins.
The list of scriptures against worldliness is so long I wonder how I could have ever ignored them. God forgive me for the time I have wasted in front of secular TV. I am a diferent person since I have begun being detoxed from that stuff. I feel so much healthier spiritually.
I'll go on record and say God will use only those who will turn from such things to bring Real Revival in this land. Maybe its my first John the Baptist remark- but if so- so be it.
God Bless,
-Robert
_________________
Robert Wurtz II
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|  2004/6/14 22:47 | Profile | moreofHim
Member
Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632
| | Re: | | Quote:
Ummm... is Ravenhill a book of the Bible I never read? That was sarcastic. You know, I'm sure that guy has had some good things to say, but he is just a guy. I don't know of any verse in the Bible that says entertainment is the devil's substitute for joy. I don't mean to put down a brother. That's not my point. My point is that quote is a man's opinion.
I honestly think this is a very valid point that yolanda has brought up. I have been guilty myself of "following one particular 'man's' teaching- as if they were the bible almost. Even if a man may be a 'prophet' in this day and age- he is still a man.
Quote:
Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
Was ravenhill crucified for you? Or were we baptized in the name of Wilkerson?
I think we have to be very careful about how much we "idolize" these teachers/preachers. We have the Word of God. We can know the truth even without all of these teachers. We have the Holy Spirit to teach us also.
I am not saying that these guys don't have absolutely great and wonderful things to say- they do! But we have to be careful about putting all our learning in one kind of basket. How many of us read the bible more than we read books written from mere men? I have been guilty here. And I am ashamed that i am. I think this offends God.
About the whole t.v. and movie thing- we have gone over this before. It's about our hearts people. If you feel in your heart that it is not right for you to watch t.v EVER- then by the grace of God, don't EVER watch t.v. Don't say one thing to sound good and righteous and then do another thing. If some of these statements from some on SI are true- then we might as well make a Christian LAW that says no Christian can be a good christian unless they get rid of their t.v. I think this is a little extreme.
I am all for holiness!!! I am all for surrender!!!! But it's about the heart! Our motives. Are we obeying God in the areas He has shown us that we need to be surrendering to Him.
I think if He is showing someone that they need to work on forgiveness, or someone else about surrendering their computer time for serving in a nursing home- I think this would be much more important to the Lord because it is OBEDIENCE. Obedience is better than sacrifice! We can sacrifice all kinds of seemingly 'worldly' things and think that is going to make us closer to God- but it's obedience to Him- in the areas one by one that He shows to each of His children.
Hey, if someone has a problem with watching filthy shows and you know the Lord wants you to get rid of your t.v.- then by all means - do it! But that does not mean that EVERYONE has a problem with watching filthy t.v. shows. Everyone has their own areas where they are weak. Mine would be looking at fitness magazines because it puts me right back to my strongholds again.
We have to be so careful about making sweeping, general statements for Christians. We are not God. Ravenhill was not God. If you really believe that God is telling you to get rid of your t.v. because you are wasting too much time on it or getting too many images from it- then don't be a hypocrite by keeping the darn thing anyway. Please let's not say and exhort others to do something that we don't know if we are going to do ourselves. And even if we do obey in that area that God shows us- it may not be the same area He is working on someone else.
Just my 2cents. I don't want to offend or make anyone angry. If I am wrong, then may God show me for I am willing to be wrong.
In Christ, Chanin
_________________
Chanin
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| | 2004/6/15 0:32 | Profile | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: | | Just turn the stupid thing off, spend some time with the Lord and come back in a couple of months if you dare and turn it back on and see if it doesn't look different to you...
I like my sports, but not that much. This isn't an issue of 'legalism' but of spirituality. Certainly there are some programs you could watch that are harmless and maybe even beneficial, The History Channel, some news, not much 'religious programming' sadly, at least around here. But even then it's not ten minutes into something that you are bombarded with commercials...why go into it all?
It is the spirit of this age, the world and all it's influence, Wilkerson is right and so is Ravenhill and Tozer and a host of other 'old' preachers that caught wind of what this would bring long before it got to these stages. It's not even the blatantly obvious anymore but the subtle, insipid dumbing down of the masses. Appealing to the lower nature and all it's selfishness, lust and greed, but with a happy :-) face! It's a big lulling to sleep. Why is it that we must be entertained everyday? Doesn't it seem odd that a vast majority of the masses just go through life with no real idea of where they are heading, day after day, off to work and then come home to relax by having their brains lobotomized by some insipid TV program? Do we have to have a steady diet of NOISE all the time?
Can a Christian just naturally fall in line with the world and partake of this without it affecting them spiritually? Is this bashing 'entertainment'? Maybe, but is it really all that 'entertaining' to begin with? If this is part of your normal fare, do you recall what you watched 2 weeks ago? Did it better your life or those around you? Bring you closer to God? Did anything cause you to change the channel or even turn it off? Have you ever thought that the Lord lives in you and does He approve, while you are watching? Is that legalism? Is it causing you to grow or wither?
Look, this is certainly an individual thing to some extent. I am not 'legalistic' about it, but grew weary of 90% of TV and the movies a long time ago and that's me and I wouldn't press my convictions on anybody. It just grieves me to see so many sucked into the void without any kind of reflection whatsoever and the usual cry is 'legalist'! Why is that? The label doesn't bother me in the slightest, but why the defending? What is the defense? Seriously? It's not a provocation, just questions that I wonder if many ever bother to ask themselves or the Lord.
Same with the music...
We are to love our God with all our heart all our strength and all our [b]mind[/b] why is that last part, seemingly the very last part?
Something that I still have to get a grasp of is what Watchman Nee talked often about regarding the Spirit, Soul and Body and the roles each plays in our make up. From what I can grasp, I would gather that the vast majority of these things appeal to the lower nature. Seems there is a much better place we could be than dwelling there. The warnings from those before us and even with us are not a design on some kind of ban on 'entertainment', certainly we of the serious sort could use to loosen up a bit [i]at times[/i], but it is because they care for your souls. Take a look through your bible and see where the saints whose lives we are to model were, what was their desire, how did they order their lives?
Meant to reply about Keith Daniel in the other thread and his thoughts on music in these times. I think he is right, there is something very wrong with much of even 'Christian' music, it's the subtle creeping of the world into it..something that I can't quite put my finger on, but it still boils down to some key issues; Is it true? True to the spirit of Truth. Is it real? Not, does it have aspects of these things, but is it really doing what it purports to do. To worship God, to bring glory to His name? As King Jimmy also pointed out there, he did say 'be careful'....
These are just a lot of the questions floating around in my mind.
I turn over the soap box...
_________________
Mike Balog
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| | 2004/6/15 0:47 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. (Revelation 18:2-6)
Beloved,
There is definately a point that people reach spiritually when they can no longer tolerate the things of this world. Christ loved righteousness and hated iniquity. He sat among sinners, but did not partake of their sins. Those who sat in darkness saw a great light when He came on the scene. A child of God should never feel comfortable in an atmosphere of sin.
I had a group of teenagers at church tell one of my Christian friends last Sunday AM that they did not like going to church because church was not "fun." The Spirit of God is constantly being challenged by MTV and a host of other flesh feeding programs. I remember the impact that 90210, MTV, and Friends had on the last generation of youth. They would come to church braxen and late- with Burger King sacks to eat while the minister spoke. You would have thought it was Fast Times at Ridgemont High. They ran that teacher out of the Church until they got one in there that would accomidate their madness. What was happening? They were so FULL of the spirit of Antichrist and rebellion through secular media that were were almost unreachable.
Do secular TV and radio stations, especially shows and music that we know that Christ would never watch or listen to, sow to or 'pipe' to the flesh? Does it strengthen our sin nature to want to rise up against us? Moreover, can we cast these thoughts and imaginations down as fast as they are coming into our minds? (II Corinthians 10:4) If every thought and imagination cannot all be taken captive what are they doing to us? They are amassing to become strongholds of lies.
I mentioned this last week in the Seminar that I worked with a young guy who OD'ed on some heavy drug. It scared him so bad that he went to church to 'get saved.' He threw out all his Tool, and other sore music into the trash. He commented that, though he was a professed alcoholic and smoker- the music was the hardest thing to give up. When he found relief he backslid again and commented, "The next time I get saved I'm going to put my CD's in the attic so I don't have to buy them again if I backslide." That hit the nail on the head right there. He associated worldly living with the old music and what it did for him. He called it getting a free "high" to be angry and much of that anger would be fueled by the moshing music.
Maybe that is why my ministry is not growing as fast as the modern church growth Churches; these are the things I teach. How can I love Christ with all my heart when that love is constantly being challenged to be divided up to other things?
Christians have all sorts of joyful things they can do. Fun is a temporary emotion that requires that something keep feeding into it; but the JOY of the Lord is our strength. I can do things to have fun- but when that fun dies down- it just levels off at a constant level of JOY that the Holy Spirit is feeding. For those who know not the Lord or who so grieve the Holy Spirit by partaking of other peoples sins- they will have to feed a bottomless pit of 'Fun' to try to compensate for the lack of Joy brought about by the absence of the Holy Spirit.
Beloved, what we have been doing has gotten us where we are. If we keep doing what we did we wil keep getting the same results. Do you hear the gentle nudging of the Holy Ghost saying, "Come out of her my people...?"
God Bless,
-Robert
_________________
Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2004/6/15 8:29 | Profile | Yodi
Member
Joined: 2004/4/23
Posts: 663
Escondido, California
| | Re: To My Brothers & Sisters | | Robert W, Chanin (MoreofHim) & Crsschk:
Thank God for the ways He has spoken to each one of our hearts! To live in obedience to the things God has personally spoken to us in each one of our walks, to have a heart to be more Christ-like and less like the world! May that heart and desire spread to every Christian, no matter where in their walks they are! May we each fall more and more in love with our Creator, the Lover of our soul, which [i]will[/i] make the things of this life less appealing. May we all taste and see that the Lord is truly good!
May we all continue to be encouraged by how God is living through each one of us! And for those maybe asleep in the darkness, may God's marvelous light awaken you and His faithful love touch your heart and draw you nearer to Him! God bless you all!
_________________
Yolanda Fields
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| | 2004/6/15 16:38 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Sister Yodi,
Thanks so much for the encouragement! I feel that sermonindex and the good folks that meet here desire to provoke each other to love and to good works.
I was thinking about trying to keep secular influences out of our lives. I read through a different post on another thread you posted and it encouraged me. I have literally destroyed VCR's and TV's because of my temptations to yield to them. I was literally mad and felt I had to get rid of those stepping stones to sin. I needed to get them out of my life because I was weak and would readily misuse them. Eventually I bought another VCR and DVD player. Today I use my DVD player to play old timey sermons and my VCR to play videos that edify.
Sometimes I talk past people and need mercy. I read a thread where you made the point (to paraphrase) that movies that do not glorify Christ should not be watched. We agree with that I believe. Leonard Ravinhill made reference once to a nature film he watched (he watched TV rarely he said) and made a spiritual application from what he saw concerning the new birth. This is certainly different from grieving the Holy Spirit as I'm sure we would all agree. :-) We all want to please God I believe.
I think it is good to reflect on the purpose of sermonindex also. Many here are ready to cast off whatever it takes to see revival. If its hindering revival- its gone.
I don't ever want to become legalistic in the sense that many preachers of decades ago in our circles did. They preached a gospel that was impossible to live, even for them. There were several of these men. Nearly all of these men backslid. When you asked them why they said; they couldn't live it. They preached against everything from high-heels to coffee. Godly women would hear these sermons and drink hot water with sugar and cream in it. This stuff actually happened. Thats what happens when 'holiness' goes crazy. We need the highest standard of Christianity without bondage- and if I might quote Keith Daniel, "If the holiness isn't a reflection of Christ- its heresy." (Paraphrase)
I'm just trying to get to God. I'm trying to press in. We need a revival to the love we had a first for God- when He consumed our minds. When you are in love- you don't have to set rules to promote that love- it just comes naturally. No need for routines- because you eat sleep and breathe the person who you are in love with. No legalism. No coersion.
May we get back to the love we had at first for Christ! Lord let it be all the more in my life. Let it be the burning fire that drives my life and fuels my zeal!
God Bless,
-Robert
_________________
Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2004/6/15 17:18 | Profile | Yodi
Member
Joined: 2004/4/23
Posts: 663
Escondido, California
| | Re: Encouragement | | Wow, RobertW, good stuff! Cool, I encouraged you? Well, you did the same for me! My Spirit rejoices knowing that we have the same heart to please and love our Lord!
Hey, thanks for sharing personally the background to how you feel about TV and stuff. It's good to hear the background to why we're so passionate about our convictions, what we believe, and what God has taught us. I know it helps me personally understand where you're coming from. We all have a story, we all have our experiences, and we all have a background. May we all seek to understand where others are coming from. Thanks for explaining. And God bless you for your obedience to cast off the things that came between you and God.
And concerning revival, may it start in our own hearts, and by God's grace, may it spread to the hearts of many others! May we always be open to be taught, to learn, and to be molded more into the image of God. And may God help us to do all these things in love!
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Yolanda Fields
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| | 2004/6/15 17:35 | Profile | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: | |
My!
Can I be brutally honest here?
After posting my reply last night and not seeing Chanin's until I had submitted it, I also took to heart what she had said and as usually is the case, these things tend to run replays in my mind.
Chanin said:
Quote:
We have to be so careful about making sweeping, general statements for Christians. We are not God. Ravenhill was not God. If you really believe that God is telling you to get rid of your t.v. because you are wasting too much time on it or getting too many images from it- then don't be a hypocrite by keeping the darn thing anyway. Please let's not say and exhort others to do something that we don't know if we are going to do ourselves. And even if we do obey in that area that God shows us- it may not be the same area He is working on someone else.
Thanks sister, it is a good point. Something I have noticed is how there can be these kind of underlying themes at times running through the forum...It's actually very interesting, almost as if the Holy Spirit is stirring us to deal with certain things. We bring them out into the light, examine them, talk about it, our passions get stirred, emotions can come into play..our hearts come out into the open. The things we can have a very strong bent about one day can die down to a simmer days later, often upon reflecting on what one of us has said that we didn't think of.
Quote:
Just my 2cents. I don't want to offend or make anyone angry. If I am wrong, then may God show me for I am willing to be wrong.
Sometimes it's good to be offended, if it leads to edification. Jesus certainly offended many. But the motive behind it, always is what is telling and sometimes even with the best of effort and intention it doesn't always come out the way we would have liked. And absolutely, I too am willing to be wrong, may the Lord show us all directly or through the brethren.
[i]Eph 4:13 And this until we all come into the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;[/i]
Robert and Yodi, what can I say? I was actually almost expecting a backlash to be honest, which would be fine, still think it would be best just to turn off the stupid thing ... :-)
But your responses encouraged me as well and said it even better than I could have. My honesty part in much of the tangent is that I see it around me. Family members that are sucked into it to an unhealthy extent and thus my particular bent. But I am learning, I can preach it (or against it), live it and pray about it. But the order does seem to make a huge difference. Pray. Live it first and then if necessary 'preach' about it and even that is circumstantial and the spirit it is done in. Have failed much by going about it in the wrong way, when my zeal is without knowledge, my frustrations get the better of me...much to learn. Does it make me angry or want to cry? Can be angry and still not sin, but isn't that the Fathers heart, that He hates sin because it is what is destroying His Creation?
Yodi said:Quote:
It's good to hear the background to why we're so passionate about our convictions, what we believe, and what God has taught us. I know it helps me personally understand where you're coming from. We all have a story, we all have our experiences, and we all have a background. May we all seek to understand where others are coming from. Thanks for explaining. And God bless you for your obedience to cast off the things that came between you and God.
Excellent words!
Robert said:
Quote:
I'm just trying to get to God. I'm trying to press in. We need a revival to the love we had a first for God- when He consumed our minds. When you are in love- you don't have to set rules to promote that love- it just comes naturally. No need for routines- because you eat sleep and breathe the person who you are in love with. No legalism. No coersion.
That is it, is it not?
I am wholeheartedly with you there brother. Amen!
_________________
Mike Balog
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| | 2004/6/16 1:51 | Profile | Yodi
Member
Joined: 2004/4/23
Posts: 663
Escondido, California
| | Re: Crsschk | | The whole thing you brought up about zeal came to mind last night while thinking about the discussions on this site. Glad you covered that in your post. I would have to say, one of the ways I've been blessed the most on this forum is learning how to speak to you all. Am I going to be sensitive to other Christians' views whose true hearts are to love the Lord through their lives, or pridefully just try to get my point across? Even when posting things that I'm aware will rub some people the wrong way, I've totally made sure to pray about it and check my heart for the motives of why I would dare to be so bold to post something that may not be popular.
This topic has turned out to be quite encouraging, uplifting, and... just reading the last post, I felt like the Spirit inside me was smiling at the unity on here! It is so comforting to know that other Christians have the same heart to want to please the Lord as best as possible.
May we look forward, each day, to what God would want to teach us through His Word, our prayers, talking with other Christians, etc.!
_________________
Yolanda Fields
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| | 2004/6/16 12:08 | Profile | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: | | My what a blessing you are to all of us sister.
Quote:
I would have to say, one of the ways I've been blessed the most on this forum is learning how to speak to you all.
And boy am I still learning...Want to come help bail me out of the mess I created in another thread? :-) Quote:
Am I going to be sensitive to other Christians' views whose true hearts are to love the Lord through their lives, or pridefully just try to get my point across?
Amen! Could care less about getting my point across though that does get betrayed sometimes against my better judgement...of course if I had better judgement... :-? Quote:
Even when posting things that I'm aware will rub some people the wrong way, I've totally made sure to pray about it and check my heart for the motives of why I would dare to be so bold to post something that may not be popular.
Something very key there; "[i]to pray about it and check my heart..."[/i]
How often I have told myself those words and often the tounge (or the fingers in this case) went running off without doing so, a great reminder...Quote:
This topic has turned out to be quite encouraging, uplifting, and... just reading the last post, I felt like the Spirit inside me was smiling at the unity on here! It is so comforting to know that other Christians have the same heart to want to please the Lord as best as possible.
And for the finishing touch, this says it O so well. Without a doubt it is what drives this site and perhaps in my jealousy to try and keep that intact somewhat or somehow can be prone to over doing it.
Such wonderful words well said, thank you Yodi!
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Mike Balog
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| | 2004/6/17 12:38 | Profile |
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