| Poster | Thread | EvanSchaible
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Joined: 2006/3/5
Posts: 29
"No Certain dwellingplace"
| | The Doctrine of Unity (a word for those who love debate) | | With all of the recent chatter concerning Calvinsism and Arminianism, I thought I would write a post concerning the scriptural doctrine of unity. I am neither a follower of Calvin, nor am I a follower of Arminius, but only a ignorant man that seeks to understand the scriptures. So often we can fall into the error on the left hand of leaving all theological and doctrinal study behind us, and we can just as easily fall into error on the right hand and develop an elitist attitude thinking that we have it right, and because of our sound hermanuetic and solid exegesis, we have to prove to everyone else that our theology is the correct system.
Romans chapter one is a searing chapter that pronounces it's woes upon every single man and woman that has every lived as Paul later in the same epistle tell us "all have sinned". While we often expound upon the more prevalent sins mentioned in this chapter, very rarely will anyone mention one particular sin, and when it is mentioned the cry of legalist, and misinterpretation are quickly used as a pacifier for a pricked conscience.
After pronouncing many piercing anathemas, Paul goes on to point out some specific sins when he says that these people are "Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers..." Tragically most Christians confidently proclaim this as a description of a unregenerate man, but when the tiny little word "debate" is brought forth as a characteristic of unregeneracy, heels become bruised as many formerly confident Christians lean back on them seeking for some way to justify their insatiable appetite to be right.
The reason, I believe, that debate is herein mentioned is solely this: debate is an utterly selfish practice that seeks to prove itself right, and often holds no regard for the other, with the occasional exception of a mention of "boy I am glad we can debate this and still have unity at the end, even though we disagree". This, to me, is a ludicrous justification for an otherwise sinful practice. Coming from one who used to constantly debate theology, and every time was grieved, in tha back of every mind after a debate concludes is one of two things:
1. Boy I sure wish so-and-so could see that his theology is wrong.
2. Boy I sure wish that so-and-so could see that my point of view is right.
Oh dear brethren, this anti Christ mindset is the hindrance to a heaven born revival. Do you seek proof for that statement? The Moravian revival came when a group of squabbling men came together in unity. I think rather than ruffle our feathers at each other, we should seek God and soar like eagles.
It must be mentioned that reasoning is much different than debate. I can reason with a sinner about the existence of God, or the cross of Christ, but if I find myself debating with them, I stop myself, backtrack to pick up the pieces and start over. Reasoning can often be another mask to endeavor to cover up a sinful contentious spirit, and this too must be guarded against. We have to surrender our intellects to God, and allow Him to shape our understanding, and with this is practiced then no longer will we have divisiveness, but we will be shown to be disciples of Jesus Christ.
If we claim to follow a triune God, then we should, as the body of Christ, be united one to another. Is it not strange to you that many who profess to follow a God that is three and yet one, perfect in unity, are divided? This is not an accurate portrayal of the God we profess to follow, and if it is not soon stopped than the world will continue to scoff and see us as merely a Sunday morning cultural phenomenon, rather than the culture shaping organism that the church is meant to be.
Just a few thoughts on the doctrine of unity.
Evan Schaible
http://ApostolicHeritage.org
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Evan Schaible
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|  2008/1/24 20:40 | Profile | broclint
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Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA
| | Re: The Doctrine of Unity (a word for those who love debate) | | Brother Evan,
Apparently there is some unity developing among many here who are addressing this same thing.
God bless you for this exhortation.
Clint
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Clint Thornton
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| | 2008/1/24 20:48 | Profile | Miccah
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| | Re: The Doctrine of Unity (a word for those who love debate) | |
EvanSchaible wrote:
Quote:
The Moravian revival came when a group of squabbling men came together in unity. I think rather than ruffle our feathers at each other, we should seek God and soar like eagles.
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Christiaan
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| | 2008/1/24 20:51 | Profile | nowhr2hide
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Joined: 2007/11/6
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| | Re: The Doctrine of Unity (a word for those who love debate) | | Quote:
Oh dear brethren, this anti Christ mindset is the hindrance to a heaven born revival. Do you seek proof for that statement? The Moravian revival came when a group of squabbling men came together in unity. I think rather than ruffle our feathers at each other, we should seek God and soar like eagles.
It must be mentioned that reasoning is much different than debate. I can reason with a sinner about the existence of God, or the cross of Christ, but if I find myself debating with them, I stop myself, backtrack to pick up the pieces and start over. Reasoning can often be another mask to endeavor to cover up a sinful contentious spirit, and this too must be guarded against. We have to surrender our intellects to God, and allow Him to shape our understanding, and with this is practiced then no longer will we have divisiveness, but we will be shown to be disciples of Jesus Christ.
If we claim to follow a triune God, then we should, as the body of Christ, be united one to another. Is it not strange to you that many who profess to follow a God that is three and yet one, perfect in unity, are divided? This is not an accurate portrayal of the God we profess to follow, and if it is not soon stopped than the world will continue to scoff and see us as merely a Sunday morning cultural phenomenon, rather than the culture shaping organism that the church is meant to be.
Thank you sir for i've seen read the same that often made me feel like " would i or would i not follow" only brought discouragement to others.
I've shared this in other thread.
For us to be
Quote:
...aware that this is an open line for the enemy to use and stumble some of the believers, as it's says' Be sober and be vigilant for enemy is near waiting for those whom he may devour.We do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. ... to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
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Claudette
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| | 2008/1/24 21:15 | Profile |
| | Re: The Doctrine of Unity (a word for those who love debate) | | A good word. Thank you, brother Evan. |
| | 2008/1/24 22:43 | | intrcssr83
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Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 246
Logan City, Queensland, Australia
| | Re: The Doctrine of Unity (a word for those who love debate) | | Quote:
by EvanSchaible on 2008/1/25 11:40:22
Tragically most Christians confidently proclaim this as a description of a unregenerate man, but when the tiny little word "debate" is brought forth as a characteristic of unregeneracy, heels become bruised as many formerly confident Christians lean back on them seeking for some way to justify their insatiable appetite to be right.
The reason, I believe, that debate is herein mentioned is solely this: debate is an utterly selfish practice that seeks to prove itself right, and often holds no regard for the other, with the occasional exception of a mention of "boy I am glad we can debate this and still have unity at the end, even though we disagree". This, to me, is a ludicrous justification for an otherwise sinful practice. Coming from one who used to constantly debate theology, and every time was grieved, in tha back of every mind after a debate concludes is one of two things:
The question I'd like to extend is where do we draw the line between debate as you define and the church's instruction in Titus 1:9 to "give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it"?
The only basis for unity is when there is agreement within biblical doctrine. The bible commands us to identify those who teach doctrine that is different from what the bible teaches (such as homosexuality being acceptable, deferring to secular viewpoints to interpret Scripture) and to avoid those people.
So the dividers are those who depart from the doctrines revealed in Scripture. The only basis for unity is agreement on the authority of the Bible teaching. Those who defer to another authority cause division.
As I read my Bible more and more, it is becoming clearer that the scriptural basis for unity and fellowship within the body of Christ cannot be anything other than the truth of God as contained within his word. Wherever there is a call to unity or love, there is also a call to remain obedient and true to the instructions of scripture:
1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.
2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.
4There is one body and one Spiritjust as you were called to one hope when you were called
5one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Ephesians 4:1-6
27Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel
28without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be savedand that by God.
Philippians 1:27-28
11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
Ephesians 4:11-16
12Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
13Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
15Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.
16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.
17And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. Colossians 3:12-17
At the same time, however, division is caused primarily by those that refuse to believe and submit to the instructions of Gods word:
17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. Romans 16:17-18
18They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. Jude 18-19
2I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."
5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.
6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2 Peter 3:2-7
The yardstick for whether Gods children truly come together is based upon whether or not they can learn, understand, apply and teach the word of God. On the other hand, the ones who disrupt fellowship are those that instead of learning, obeying and applying the Word cause division because they have no solid footing to build unity with. They may build friendships, acquaintances, they may even be our spouses, but the fact is that because they are going against the tide of truth, unless they submit to the authority of divine instruction as that which they will base their lives upon, they will always be set apart and will never be part of the fold.
It is not surprising to find that when we come across people who are consistently stubborn, argumentative and divisive, you will often find that when you pull back the layers, there are consistent gaps including lack of prayer, lack of worship and lack of Bible Study (including questionable hermeneutical practices).
Ergo, when someone comes forward to humbly point out a legitimate concern and has sufficient scriptural backing to support their case as well as suggestions for improvement that are valid on the grounds of scripture, practicality and sound reason, should any argument or division ensure, biblical precedent would not hold him accountable for it and it would be going against Gods will to condemn him for such.
It would be like a drug trafficker at LAX Airport getting taken aside by a Customs officer with a Sniffer Dog and finds that the trafficker has been carrying 4kg of cocaine from Columbia, yet when the police arrive on the scene, the trafficker is allowed to go on his way while the Customs Officer is imprisoned and the Sniffer Dog gets put down by lethal injection.
Of course, this is completely unreasonable.
Hence, if we seek to establish strong relationships within our immediate fellowships and we choose to found them on something other than the truth of God, what will it be based on? Friendship may work, but the fact of the matter is with any situation, when God is taken out of the picture, all that youre left with is the world and its ways. While its more than possible to form healthy relationships in a non-spiritual setting, the glue is always something homogenous. But what about a church, where apart from the common truths relating to God, there is no immediate reason for connection? What will bring the people together? Who will lead? The first lines in the sand that are likely to be drawn are those that separate the haves from the have nots. Then, contest for who is the smartest, the prettiest, the richest etc. Such are the worlds ways of interaction: If there is no God-centred reason for people to come together, individual merit becomes the standard in which the alpha personality assumes dominance.
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Benjamin Valentine
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| | 2008/1/25 2:56 | Profile | sermonindex
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Online! | | Re: | | Good word brother Evan.
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| | 2008/1/25 9:01 | Profile | hmmhmm
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| | Re: The Doctrine of Unity (a word for those who love debate) | | Quote:
EvanSchaible wrote:
After pronouncing many piercing anathemas, Paul goes on to point out some specific sins when he says that these people are "Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers..." Tragically most Christians confidently proclaim this as a description of a unregenerate man, but when the tiny little word "debate" is brought forth as a characteristic of unregeneracy, heels become bruised as many formerly confident Christians lean back on them seeking for some way to justify their insatiable appetite to be right.
this was a needed read for me, thank you brother
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CHRISTIAN
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| | 2008/1/25 9:06 | Profile |
| | Re: The Doctrine of Unity (a word for those who love debate) | | Quote:
...we can just as easily fall into error on the right hand and develop an elitist attitude thinking that we have it right, and because of our sound hermanuetic and solid exegesis, we have to prove to everyone else that our theology is the correct system...
Brother Evan, I believe I have fallen into this error many times in the past.
Quote:
1. Boy I sure wish so-and-so could see that his theology is wrong.
2. Boy I sure wish that so-and-so could see that my point of view is right.
I have been guilty of such thinking in the past and I ask for your forgiveness when we have debated and my speech was not gracious.
There is a danger for every Calvinist to be Calvinistic in the head and not at heart.
I believe that the only way anyone is ever going to understand the doctrines of grace is by the grace of God through the Word of God by the spirit of God. It is foolish and inconsistent for a Calvinist to expect anyone to believe as he does apart from the grace of God.
The Lord teaches us in His grace and mercy.
Psa 119:124 Deal with thy servant according unto thy mercy, and teach me thy statutes.
Psa 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
Father, I am the chief of all sinners and am not worthy to unloose the latchet of your shoes. I was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. Father, you have chosen to have mercy upon one that had not obtained mercy; and You have said to one which was not your son, Thou art my son; and I say unto thee my Saviour, Thou art my God.
God I pray that you would mercifully and graciously teach so and so about how much you love him. Graciously teach him that "...in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us."
Graciously teach him that "...at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world... as many as were ordained to eternal life believed... that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory... a remnant according to the election of grace... being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will... He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities... in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old... the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep... Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us... I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine... for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth... Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple... For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake... For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified... The LORD will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands... And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me... I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand... For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified... the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."
You are dearly loved my future brother in Law! -Abraham
P.S. If the Lord permits. I look forward to having my children often visit Uncle Evan.
Edit: scripture repeated... oops. |
| | 2008/1/26 4:51 | |
| | Re: The Doctrine of Unity (a word for those who love debate) | |
intrcssr83 said
Quote:
As I read my Bible more and more, it is becoming clearer that the scriptural basis for unity and fellowship within the body of Christ cannot be anything other than the truth of God as contained within his word. Wherever there is a call to unity or love, there is also a call to remain obedient and true to the instructions of scripture:
1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.
2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.
4There is one body and one Spiritjust as you were called to one hope when you were called
5one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Ephesians 4:1-6
I was musing about this the other day, probably after something I read by AT Sparks in his article 'By my Spirit'.
He said this:
'It is possible, of course, to argue that just as the Old Testament insisted on correct form before the glory came, so in New Testament days the coming of glory will be dependent on careful insistence on right doctrine in the strictest correctness as well as on a perfect form of procedure, but surely Pentecost was the other way round, so far as men here on earth were concerned. In heaven, it is true, everything was perfectly according to God in Christ, and that was how [u]the glory came down to the Church here on earth[/u]; but so far as the disciples were concerned, [u]the doctrine and the procedure followed[/u]. The Church began with the glorious fullness of the Holy Spirit.'
Then, on considering the list in Ephesians 4:3 - 6, I noted there is no direct mention of the written word.
:-o
Quote:
The yardstick for whether Gods children truly come together is based upon whether or not they can learn, understand, apply and teach the word of God.
Is it? Is this really what God is looking for from us, by which to define unity?
I'm just asking. I'm wondering if such a template can be found in scripture at all, let alone as the #1 issue?
Or, how else might we qualify, to be described as 'one body'?
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| | 2008/1/26 16:12 | |
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