| Poster | Thread | CJaKfOrEsT
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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia
| | Re: All Israel Will Be Saved? | | Quote:
HomeFree89 wrote:
Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Will what this verse says literally happen?
Perhaps listening to this may help:
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=14171]Men's Hatred of God - Part 1[/url] and [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=14172]Part 2[/url]
This is part of Ben Israel's 2006 Prophetic School, which can be found in its entirety under [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=173]Art Katz[/url]. Reggie Kelly brings some particularly sharp insight into Romans 9-11, taking into consideration the Old Testament Prophetic texts.
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Aaron Ireland
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|  2007/6/6 11:47 | Profile |
| | Re: | | CJaKfOrEsT ~ thank you for posting the link.
I'm so far behind I didn't know we had So much of Brother Katz's writings on here.
God Bless !!! |
| | 2007/6/6 13:21 | | Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | Rom 9:6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
All Israel shall be saved, which are not of Israel but the Israel of God, which the Word of God has taken effect. Huh!!!???
So who of Israel are the all?
Rom 9:6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 9:9 For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
So all is not all?
Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
In Christ: Phillip
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Phillip
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| | 2007/6/6 14:59 | Profile |
| | Re: Everything must begin with Spirit | | Quote:
GrannieAnnie said: Why must we spiritualize so much?
I imagine the Phariees would have thought the same thing in Jesus day when they didn't see the Kingdom of God literally come in the way they read the scriptures to be. But it came in Spirit,Quote:
Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Quote:
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
This substance of things hoped for is spiritual and faith causes it to come into manifestation.
God is a Spirit, when the fullness of the time came He was made manifest into this world in the likeness of sinful flesh.
It always has to start with Spirit, Quote:
Zechariah 4:6 ...... Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
and by the Spirit of God it will manifest into this world by faith according to His good pleasure.
So yes, everthing has to be spiritual, the beginning of our born again exisitance is Spiritual, our walk in Him is Spiritual.
When reading the Old Testement, it has be spiritual because He is speaking to the spiritually minded, not to the carnal, for the carnal mind cannot receive the things of God. Thats why the Phariees could not receive Jesus because He was speaking of spiritual things out of the law and they couldn't receive that, they were looking for an outward manifestion. But Jesus tells us to seek first the Kingdom of God, and that Kingdom is Spiritual. |
| | 2007/6/6 15:56 | |
| | Re: | | The Word is spiritually discerned - agreed - but what I've been posting to here is what we've done with "the Jews". (Or any other Doctrine that gets spiritualized away):
In Hermeneutics class, we were taught, there is a time to not spiritualize Scripture .... When there are so many proof texts cross-referenced to prove a literal translation ... spiritualizing is not appropriate, especially in changing or forming new doctrines. As just for one belief, off the top of my head - the Oneness doctrine.
That was my meaning and I do believe our LittleGift caught my drift there.
Thanks Compliments |
| | 2007/6/6 16:53 | | CJaKfOrEsT
Member
Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia
| | Re: | | Quote:
GrannieAnnie wrote:
In Hermeneutics class, we were taught, there is a time to not spiritualize Scripture .... When there are so many proof texts cross-referenced to prove a literal translation ... spiritualizing is not appropriate, especially in changing or forming new doctrines. As just for one belief, off the top of my head - the Oneness doctrine.
Spiritualising is not a bad thing, in itself, as long as it doesn't [b]replace[/b] the plain reading of Scripture, but rather enhances it. J Jacob Prasch teaches much on Jewish Hermeneutics, or Midrash. The summary of this, is that the Jews would read the verse plainly, but then look into the allegoric implications of the plain statement, in order to understand the depth of the statement.
Understanding this concept can be helpful in understanding prophetic literature, in that successive fulfillments occur, each being more and more precisely matching the ultimate fulfilment. Because of this, events such as Israel's return to their land under Nehemiah and again in 1948, serve as a shadow of an ultimate return, when the "Law shall go forth out of Zion", and "they shall beat their swords into ploughshares" and "learn war no more". This component of their return is as yet unfulfilled, and therefore there must be an ultimate fulfilment to come, after a later diaspora.
Each successive "fulfilment" gives us some insight into the final one, even when we look prior to the prophetic statement, to Abraham and later Jacob's sojourn into Egypt, departing to journey toward Canaan, we can grasp subtle details which the prophets merely allude to. Even from here, we can see something of our own sojourning through the world, as a type of a future Time of Jacob's Trouble, leading to the restoration of the ultimate God's chosen people.
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Aaron Ireland
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| | 2007/6/7 8:23 | Profile | CJaKfOrEsT
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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia
| | Re: | | Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
Rom 9:6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
All Israel shall be saved, which are not of Israel but the Israel of God, which the Word of God has taken effect. Huh!!!???
So who of Israel are the all?
....
So all is not all?
Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
I must say, Phillip that I am often finding myself a little confused after reading your posts. I'm sure the same can occur when people read my long winded ramblings, but nevertheless, this is yours I am commenting on, now.
You have said, "all is not all", which one can read as either their will be some that are not included, but for some reason "all" is still used; Israel has been replaced by the church; only those who are left standing will be saved. I personally believe the latter.
Jordan has brought us one verse of the Epistle to the Romans, which is preceded by:
Quote:
[b]22[/b] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [i]his[/i] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[b]23[/b] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
[b]24[/b] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [i]branches[/i], be graffed into their own olive tree?
[b]25[/b] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[b]26[/b] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[b]Rom 11:22-26[/b]
It would seem that Paul is pointing our attention to a future time, when Israel is grated back into God's vine. Obviously there will be Jews that are being born again before this ultimate re-grafting, just as Gentiles like Rahab and Ruth were "grafted in" during the old covenant. God is not, and never has been, the respecter of persons, however it would appear that for some reason He has chosen to demonstrate something to the world, and its principalities and power, through the chastening of Israel, and the restoration of a remnant. Just as He hardened Pharaoh's heart, prior to the Exodus, so He has and will continue to harden the hearts of the Jews. Could it be the the "all Israel" are those that are still alive when this event occurs?
Consider also Isaiah's words:
Quote:
[b]1[/b] Thus saith the LORD, The heaven [i]is[/i] my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
[b]2[/b] For all those [i]things[/i] hath mine hand made, and all those [i]things[/i] have been, saith the LORD: but [u]to this man will I look, [i]even[/i] to [i]him that is[/i] poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.[/u]
[b]3[/b] He that killeth an ox is as [i]if[/i] he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, [/i]as if[/i] he cut off a dogs neck; he that offereth an oblation, [i]as if he offered[/i] swines blood; he that burneth incense, [i]as if[/i] he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
[b]4[/b] [u]I also will choose their delusions[/u], and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose [i]that[/i] in which I delighted not.
[b]5[/b] Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my names sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
[b]6[/b] A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
[b]7[/b] Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
[b]8[/b] Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? [u]Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [i]or[/i] shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children[/u].
[b]9[/b] Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut [i]the womb[/i]? saith thy God.
[b]10[/b] Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
[b]11[/b] That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
[b]12[/b] For thus saith the LORD, Behold, [u]I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck[/u], ye shall be borne upon [i]her[/i] sides, and be dandled upon [i]her[/i] knees.
[b]13[/b] As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and [i]ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.[/i]
[b]Is 66:1-13[/b]
Could it be that God is saying that He will literally birth the remainder of Israel in one day? Art and Reggie, in the sermon that I posted earlier, suggest that Israel shall be saved prior to their repentance, and that their repentance shall spring forth out of the mercy that has been shown to them, by God in their restoration. If this is the case, then indeed "all is not all", for prior to this occurring, two out of three of the nation of Israel around the globe (presently approx 15,000,000 people) shall perish. Obviously those shall not be saved, in spite of "all" else being saved.
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Aaron Ireland
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| | 2007/6/7 8:39 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Hi CJaKfOrEsT,
Where you quoted me Quote:
GrannieAnnie wrote:
In Hermeneutics class, we were taught, there is a time to not spiritualize Scripture .... When there are so many proof texts cross-referenced to prove a literal translation ... spiritualizing is not appropriate, especially in changing or forming new doctrines. As just for one belief, off the top of my head - the Oneness doctrine.
I fully understand what you're saying and know that Jacob Prasch is also on the Apologetic Coordination Team --- so he and the others of "ACT" expose false doctrine and Movements also. Sandy Simpson is one of my favorites in that great bunch.
MOST false doctrine comes from spiritualizing verses and not taking them contextually & thoroughly cross-referencing.
As I feel & wrote above, yes, there is time to spiritualize - After sound doctrine is established and one is grounded in it first.
On this thread, talking about Israel, and who will be saved in the end .... that's where I feared "spiritualizing them away".
Thank you also for your post of Art Katz.
Lord's Blessings and Shalom.
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| | 2007/6/7 11:38 | | philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
In a nutshell, all does mean ALL.
I suppose 'all' would generally mean 'all' but the real issue is who is Israel?
If "all Israel" shall be saved, and I believe it, what can "Israel" mean? Does this mean every single individual of the genes of Abraham who are alive at this point will be saved? If "Israel" means the 'covenant people' then the verse is easily understood, if it means 'all descendants of Abraham' I have no idea what it could mean.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2007/6/7 15:02 | Profile | IRONMAN
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| | To Answer bro Philologos' Question | | brethren
Greetings in Christ's name by whose Blood we are saved. AMEN.
i think it is necessary to note that Paul also said that not all who are Israel are Abraham's seed. i think it was mentioned earlier that there is the prophecy of Zechariah in which 2/3 of Israel will be cut off and the remainder will be purified and saved. Perhaps all of Israel doesn't mean every Jew but rather every Jew who is elected for salvation just as we were elected before the setting of the foundation of the earth.
something to consider perhaps?
Grace and Peace to you all in Christ. AMEN.
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Farai Bamu
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| | 2007/6/7 15:23 | Profile |
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