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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : In Regards to the concept of "Total Deprvity"

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whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

I presume that everyone will agree that those not born from above by regeneration are all children of the devil. That is scriptural. If you look at Revelation at what happens when the Holy Spirit departs from the world just prior to tribulation, all men become the beasts that they are. The Holy Spirit restrains evil from actually acting out what it is. If God departed from this world, it would become Hell. Men aren't good, they are children of wrath. There is none good no not one. What does the word sinful mean but full of sin. I sincerely struggle with how this isn't plain to all from Scripture. I sometimes wonder if the reason people struggle with the utter depravity of mankind is because we were raised to think all men are the children of God and just need to fixed a little bit. There is a reason we have to be born again. Flesh and blood will not see the Lord. We are born the first time with corruptible seed and the second time with incorruptible.

 2007/4/27 8:53Profile









 Re:

Quote:

whyme wrote:
I presume that everyone will agree that those not born from above by regeneration are all children of the devil. That is scriptural.



Oh? Where is that stated?

Quote:
If you look at Revelation at what happens when the Holy Spirit departs from the world just prior to tribulation, all men become the beasts that they are.



Beasts they are??

Quote:
The Holy Spirit restrains evil from actually acting out what it is.



I believe it reads restrains the Devil, the man sin.

Quote:
If God departed from this world, it would become Hell.



You mean hell will break loose, correct?

Quote:
Men aren't good, they are children of wrath.



What men? What children of wrath are you referring?

Quote:
There is none good no not one.



Where does it say unregenerate men/man could not/ cannot turn to God and be saved?

Quote:
What does the word sinful mean but full of sin. I sincerely struggle with how this isn't plain to all from Scripture.




Because it is not in scripture...anywhere! It's commentary.

Quote:
I sometimes wonder if the reason people struggle with the utter depravity of mankind is because we were raised to think all men are the children of God and just need to fixed a little bit. There is a reason we have to be born again. Flesh and blood will not see the Lord. We are born the first time with corruptible seed and the second time with incorruptible.



Man, by nature, is not utterly depraved which would mean he [u]couldn't[/u] turn to God....unless you can point to scripture that says he is. I have found none.

 2007/4/27 9:09
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:

Ormly wrote:
The last paragraph from my OP asks with pointed reference to Romans 3:10-18 (HCSB) as it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, together they have become useless; there is no one who does good, there is not even one. ............."

..... Where in any of Paul's writings has it that man couldn't return to God. I rather read that he would not, not that he could not.....and suffered the consequences for his actions?

You, not being a Calvinist, should have no difficulty with this question. It really isn't even addressed to you. Perhaps you have a Calvinist friend?...and If I don't read like I am happy,, you will be correct in assuming that.



Well, when you sound like you're growling, you might easily be misunderstood.

But that quote was exactly why I took this to be a Calvinist Thread. If you already know there are none righteous, why are you asking the question?

And when you label a thread 'Total Depravity', it is a bit misleading to then pretend ignorance of the fact that there is none righteous when you yourself quoted those words.

As to not writing to me, you are not on a private message board, but an open thread.

If you only wanted christinyou to answer you, you could have messaged him, instead of opening a thread that is read by all at this site. He's very nice, you see, and answers everyone's questions. It was why I didn't want him being trapped in another Calvinist thread.

And I thought this was a Calvinistic thread, because of the words 'Total Depravity', and the quote that 'none are righteous'. It seemed to me that you answered yourself.

These things do happen, you know, and I did apologize. Do you want another one? I'm often wrong, and hence, apologize often, so I have a lot of practice.

As to sounding mean and unhappy, if you want to, you can. I will still try to take you seriously and literally.

I am trying now.

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/4/27 9:25Profile









 Re:

You can't read. I'm done

 2007/4/27 9:28
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:

Ormly wrote:
You can't read. I'm done



Uh Oh!

And I really was trying really hard to be nice.

My apologies to everyone on the site.

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/4/27 9:40Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote:
Man, by nature, is not utterly depraved which would mean he couldn't turn to God....unless you can point to scripture that says he is. I have found none.



These scriptures are taken from the NIV, unless otherwise stated...

John 6:44
No one [color=0000FF]can[/color] come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness [color=0000FF]could[/color] be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

Jeremiah 13:23
[color=0000FF]can[/color] the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither [color=0000FF]can[/color] you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he [color=0000FF]cannot[/color] understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8:3 (NAS)
For what the Law [color=0000FF]could not[/color] do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

In the entire chapter of Job 9, he also makes known this very issue. Who is man that he could turn to God?

Job 9:2,15
Indeed, I know that this is true. But how [color=0000FF]can[/color] a mortal be righteous before God? 15 Though I were innocent, I [color=0000FF]could not[/color] answer him; I could only plead with my Judge for mercy.

Job 14:1-5
1 "Man born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. 2 He springs up like a flower and withers away; like a fleeting shadow, he does not endure. 3 Do you fix your eye on such a one? Will you bring him before you for judgment? 4 Who [color=0000FF]can[/color] bring what is pure from the impure? No one! 5 Man's days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed.

Proverbs 20:9
Who [color=0000FF]can[/color] say, "I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin"?

SCRIPTURES ON SLAVERY TO SIN SUGGESTING THAT MAN CANNOT TURN TO GOD

John 8:34
Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin."

Romans 7:14
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

Galatians 3 :22
But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Jeremiah 2:22
"Although you wash yourself with soda and use an abundance of soap, the stain of your guilt is still before me," declares the Sovereign Lord.

Ecclesiastes 7:20,29 There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins. 29 This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes."

Psalms 51 :5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.


Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2007/4/27 10:50Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Your Post, BeenBlake

Blake, I'm so sorry.

I chased Ormly off with my honesty, even though I tried to be nice. I guess he didn't believe me when I said I was sorry. I must have hit his aggravation point, though why after 60 posts in three days was he aggravated? Must be my stupidity.

Anyway, it was a great post - answered what I thought the question was, once I re-read the original post.

Of course, Ormly might not think so.

Regrets,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/4/27 11:30Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Of course, Ormly might not think so.


Ormly doesn't want a discussion; he wants a surrender.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/4/27 14:01Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
Of course, Ormly might not think so.


Ormly doesn't want a discussion; he wants a surrender.



Thank you, Ron. I don't feel quite so rotten now.
That makes sense then. I couldn't figure out why he didn't answer my questions.

I do try to be kind and well spoken, but I also try to be honest.

That makes it a bit hard sometimes. Still, words can bite, and dig in deep if you're not careful.

I'll just keep on being careful.

Thank you, Bro!

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/4/27 14:07Profile





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