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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Ron wrote:

Quote:
So you can see that discipline is not necessarily linked with sin.



I see this precept in a different light...

Heb. 5:6 As He also says in another place:
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”;
7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Again...

"though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered."

Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. The substance of this salvation speaks of the suffering of the flesh...

Paul writes in Romans 8:

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

First he states that those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Then he states...

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Again..."IF by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body..."

Why is this required as the substance contained within salvation?

So I believe that the dicipline that God trains His elect by is to free them from the effects of the flesh...

Listen to what Scripture teaches us about those who are being conformed into His Son's image...

2Cor. 1:5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds through Christ. 6 Now if we are afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effective for enduring the same sufferings which we also suffer. Or if we are comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. 7 And our hope for you is steadfast, because we know that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so also you will partake of the consolation.

Phillipians 1:
29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.


Phillipians 3:
8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,

Phillipians 3:

Phil. 3:15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.

Phil. 3:17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

There are many more Scriptures which speaks of suffering the death of flesh. This training takes place in those who by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh.

Why is this so important to our Father?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/29 0:51Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
rookie on 2007/3/29 5:51:24
So I believe that the dicipline that God trains His elect by is to free them from the effects of the flesh...


So you believe that Christ's sufferings were to 'free' him from the 'effects of the flesh'???

What 'effects' of His flesh to you have in mind?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/3/29 3:25Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Jeff wrote: Quote,

"According to Scripture this is our inheritance according to the first man Adam. All are subjected to this futility.

So then when one is born from above...what happens then?

Gal. 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

The only person that ever walked 100% of the time with the Spirit was Jesus Christ.

So what has God predetermined for us who turn toward Him?

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Our High Priest is able. The question is, are we willing to grow in understanding and wisdom which delivers us from the corruption of this body?""



We are all under the Law, Jew and Gentile, unless we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Then the program changes to Grace and Christ in you the hope of Glory.

Acts 26:15-18 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Are you sanctified by the faith that is in Jesus Christ?

When Christ came and told His followers to follow Him, at that time He was offering the Kingdom to Israel and going to lead them into a way of life that fit earthbound people for Gods plan for Israel. That is Christ on the throne of David governing and reigning from The earthbound Jerusalem. The death of Christ on the Cross chaqnged the process for God's earthly people. No longer was heaven on earth in view to anyone including Israel.

God initiated a new program where Jew or Gentile would have the same chance, that is believers that that believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God would be invited direct to the Father's House. This was a radical change form the Kingdom being on this earth to it being in Heaven. This was not a surprise, not seeing on God's part the death of His own Son, it had been in God's mind even before He created the earth, Eph 1:4 that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", Col 1:27 and that Glory is us seated in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus, No more Law, but Grace. We are not longer under the Law which is earthy, but under Grace, which is Heavenly.

You see the program changed when Israel did not receive their King. Israel lost their place of being God's chosen people of earth, for a time. Acts 28:28. Jesus brought the Kingdom of Heaven to Israel perfectly, but Israel failed to obey and accept Him. Now His death would be not only Israel's salvation but the Gentiles also. The new program would be that all would have to accept Jesus Christ as their savior. This new gospel of Pauls' would now be the death of the old man and the birth of the new man in Christ Jesus. Gal 2:20, death on the Cross of the old man with Christ and new life in Christ by the birthing, being born again of Incorruptable seed, 1 Peter 1:23, the taking away of sin from the believer. These are the two main things of the new gospel of Christ from Paul. One, the taking away of sin and the most important, New birth of The Seed of Christ in the believer. Again and again, "that is Christ in you the Hope of Glory", which should be the cry of every believer, new creatures in Christ Jesus and headed for the Father's House, not the earthly kingdom on this earth in the millennial Kingdom of Christ keeping the promises of God to the promised Israel and the earth when it is changed to the promises of God also.

You cannot mix the two gospels or the confusion is so great that Law becomes Grace and Grace becomes the law unto separation and failure of the God of Christ unto Paul that fulfills the Word of God. Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Colossians 1:24-28 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Fulfilling the Word of God through Paul's gospel of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Now God will deal with us through the Son and by the Holy Spirit that is sealed us into Christ and His Body the Church for ever.

In Christ: Phillip



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Phillip

 2007/3/29 3:38Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
by rookie on 2007/3/25 8:24:50

Quote:
Brothe Paul wrote:

Quote:
Hallelujah! This is a true saying, Ron. Glory be to God for giving us Jesus Christ. Glory be to our God who is able to save and give us the victory to the uttermost!

Quote:
What are you refering to when you speak of victory?



The same "victory" John wrote of in verse 4 of the fifth chapter of his first book:

"For whosoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/v/i/victoryw.htm

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/f/a/faithist.htm

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/v/i/victory.htm

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/t/h/i/thisistv.htm


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/3/29 8:09Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Ron wrote:

Quote:
So you believe that Christ's sufferings were to 'free' him from the 'effects of the flesh'???



I believe Scripture teaches that He was without sin and was willing to die for those who have sin. He was willing to experience the torture and the death of His perfect flesh for us who were dead according to the flesh.

Brother Ron, was Christ flesh corrupt in the same way as our's are?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/29 19:02Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:



Quote:
Are you sanctified by the faith that is in Jesus Christ?



Scriptures reveal to us the life that Christ lived on earth. Throughout this testimony, we find that Christ did all the works that His Father showed Him through the Holy Spirit. By the Spirit Christ became the author of our eternal salvation.

Rom. 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. This demonstration by Christ seeking guidance from His Father, is the faith of Christ we see in Scripture.

So our hope should indeed rest in finding "the faith" that Christ demonstrated to us in Scripture. We should begin to find our lives defined by the parables that He taught. We should begin to see the attributes that He taught in the Beatitudes growing in our lives.

So Yes, I have found "the faith of Christ," working in me.



Quote:
You cannot mix the two gospels or the confusion is so great that Law becomes Grace and Grace becomes the law unto separation and failure of the God of Christ unto Paul that fulfills the Word of God.



There is only one gospel. Listen to Paul's teaching on this...

Rom. 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And also...

Romans 11:

4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Do you see the last verse, do you believe?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/30 0:34Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Paul wrote:

Quote:
The same "victory" John wrote of in verse 4 of the fifth chapter of his first book:

"For whosoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."



Tell me about this victory in your life?

How has Christ shown you the ways the world has polluted your flesh and how has He delivered you so that you can say you have "overcome the world?" How has He given you wisdom to recognize humanism, self esteem, pride, covetousness, jealousy, false idols that exists in this world?

Are you complete in this victory in the path that you have walked thus far?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/30 0:38Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Ron...

I have not seen that you have considered the precept for why God must train those that are His sons. Have you considered these Scriptures that I posted on the reason He must train us? Have you considered what training brings about in the life of those who are chastened by the Father?

What does this training focus on?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/30 0:45Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

One Gospel or at least two?

Galatians 1:11-24 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia; And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ: But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. And they glorified God in me.

Paul calls the Jewish religion, the old gospel of Moses, is what made him persecute the Church, and the Gospel of Christ is which changed him to preach the Faith, "The Church", which once in the Jewish Religion he destroyed. The He verifies it by calling it his Gospel. Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

What is Paul's Gospel? Colossians 1:12-27 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

To fulfill the word of God, which no one new. That is the Gospel of Christ given to Paul, which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Two Gospels One of Moses to Israel and the other to Paul given by Jesus Christ. Israel, repent and be baptized. The Gospel of Christ believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and you will be saved and become a new creature in Christ Jesus, born again of the Spirit of Christ and the Washing of Water by the Word of God, which is living Water, Christ in you, never to thirst again. Taught by the Holy Spirit only, revealed by the Holy Spirit only. Which Christ confirms in John 14,15,16,17. Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you.

John 17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

In Christ: Christinyou2


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Phillip

 2007/3/30 2:44Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I believe Scripture teaches that He was without sin and was willing to die for those who have sin. He was willing to experience the torture and the death of His perfect flesh for us who were dead according to the flesh.



So what 'effects of the flesh (Chrit's)' do you believe God was dealing with in his discipline?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/3/30 2:48Profile





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