| Poster | Thread | Logic
Member
Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791
| | Re: | | Quote:
Some scholars claim that "the most common distortion in the Church today of 'the doctrine of Grace' is in Christians attempting to make faith an action on our part, rather than humbly accepting that the faith we have is by the sovereign action of God. No one has faith of their own free will, faith comes by the divine will of God, through the gracious work of Christ.
This is false.
How is the, "accepting truth based on evidence and witnesses and acting on those proofes", something given?
When a judge sees all the witnesses and goes thruogh all the evidence, is the faith given to him to give the verdict or does he decide to make the verdict based on the criteria?
This is how we choose to follow Christ.
There is one who was witnessed to that did not choose to follow Christ untill Jesus was prooven to be a real character in history and prooven to be God; only then did that person be able yo have faith to follow Jesus.
Jesus was prooven to be real by witnesses(apostles) that were also prooven to be real in history.
The Jesus was prooven to be God by His word which is the evidence. |
|  2006/11/29 18:51 | Profile | Christinyou
Member
Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | Jeff wrote,
"""Jesus was prooven to be real by witnesses(apostles) that were also prooven to be real in history.
The Jesus was prooven to be God by His word which is the evidence."""
Why then was He crucified? The Ones that believed were given Jesus by His Father and His revelation the Jesus Christ was His Son and Jesus lost none except the one scripture foretold, Judas. He will not loose any that are given Him by the Father, for no man can get to Jesus on his own.
Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
Do you see our grace or our faith in any of this?
Ephesians 1:5-7 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
I don't see that I had anything to do with it except to say yes, I believe, and that was give to me.
Not by my works of anything, which means no works, not even works of faith, my faith was dead and all I had to give God was nothing. He did it all.
Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Paul say he boasts in nothing save the Cross of Christ and he want nothing except to know Christ and preach nothing except Christ and Him crucified. Leaves us pretty much nothing.
Saved by God through Christ In the Holy Spirit, by the Choice and Power and Mercy of God's Love.
Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
Phl 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, [that they are] the enemies of the cross of Christ:
This is what man did and does about proof.
Mar 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
This is what Christ did in Paul.
Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,
That included Paul's perfect Law keeping and His Faith and all that he thought he was before he met Jesus Christ, not of his choosing or asking for proof.
Just like God said let there be Light and there was light.
2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
God commands the light of Jesus Christ to shine in our hearts. Not our commands or faith or anything we do, it is all Him.
This is what "shine" means: to beam, i.e. radiate brilliancy (literally or figuratively):--give light, shine. This is what God does so we can believe unto salvation.
Phillip
_________________
Phillip
|
| | 2006/11/29 19:27 | Profile | Logic
Member
Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791
| | Re: | | Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
Jeff wrote,
"""Jesus was prooven to be real by witnesses(apostles) that were also prooven to be real in history.
The Jesus was prooven to be God by His word which is the evidence."""
Why then was He crucified?
Because He said he was God
Quote:
Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
Grace but can't be faith by reason of which I've given.
Quote:
Not by my works of anything, which means no works, not even works of faith, my faith was dead and all I had to give God was nothing. He did it all.
Your faith was dead until you decided to act on what you believe.
Faith isn't giving but responding to him.
Faith is a reaction to the Word of God(Romans 10:17)
[b]Ephesians 2:8-9[/b] [color=990000]For by grace are ye [u]saved[/u] through faith; and [u]that[/u][/color](Salvation) [color=990000]not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.[/color]
Gal 6:12 is not about faith.
Phl 3:18 is because they set their minds on the things of the earth.
Quote:
This is what man did and does about proof.
Becaus they did not have the love of the truth.(2Thes 2:10)
Quote:
This is what Christ did in Paul.
Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
This is about circumcision.
Phl 3:8 Is about his earthly credentials, not about faith.
Quote:
That included Paul's perfect Law keeping and His Faith and all that he thought he was before he met Jesus Christ, not of his choosing or asking for proof.
How was it about his faith?
Before, he may havehad misplaced faith, but it is not talking about his faith.
What was Paul being knocked to the ground and blinded?
God revieling himself so that Paul could [b]know[/b] Who he was persecuting.
That was proof, so paul would choose not to persecut Jesus and follow Him.
Quote:
Just like God said let there be Light and there was light.
The Light is the Law shining in our hearts revieling our sin so we would choose to repent. |
| | 2006/11/29 23:26 | Profile | Christinyou
Member
Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | Just like God said let there be Light and there was light.
So also hath the light to shine in our hearts.
2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
This is not the light of the Law, for the law killed us and makes sin glaringly visible in the presence of the Nature of God, which the Law is telling us who God is. This light is the knowledge of the Glory of God, who is Christ Jesus. God is the One who causes this brilliance to shine in our heart, This is the Faith of the Son of God.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Whose faith saves those that believe and receive our Faith of Jesus Christ that gives us Faith in Jesus Christ?
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
We receive the Holy Spirit by the Faith that has been given us by the Father that is in Jesus Christ.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Without the Spirit of Christ by the Faith that has been given us to believe by the Father, which is the Faith of Jesus Christ by the Power and sealing of the Holy Spirit in Christ Jesus.
The assurance that our faith unto salvation is the Faith of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:10-15 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will: That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saintss.
After hearing the word of truth is when our faith is heard of because it is now the Faith of Jesus Christ given by the Father and sealed by the Holy Spirit.
In the Faith of the Son of God.
Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
2 Corinthians 4:10-13 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. So then death worketh in us, but life in you. We having the same Spirit of Faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
Believe by His Spirit of Faith, therefore we speak.
Phillip
_________________
Phillip
|
| | 2006/11/30 3:03 | Profile | Logic
Member
Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791
| | Re: | | Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
Just like God said let there be Light and there was light.
So also hath the light to shine in our hearts.
2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
This is not the light of the Law, for the law killed us and makes sin glaringly visible in the presence of the Nature of God, which the Law is telling us who God is. This light is the knowledge of the Glory of God, who is Christ Jesus. God is the One who causes this brilliance to shine in our heart, This is the Faith of the Son of God.
The Law represents Christs' character. Before one is saved, the "light that is the knowledge of the Glory of God, who is Christ Jesus" will reviel "sin as glaringly visible in the presence of the Nature of God"
When the sin is purged, then can Christs' "brilliance to shine in our heart"
The Law is used to show us that we cannot uphold the righteous standards of God and we are incapable to do it and that we need to be changed from within in order to accomplish the Law. The Law not only shows us that we are spiritually dead, it also shows us why we need to be changed, to become spiritually alive most of all.
After the Law has done its job, one ends up saying, [color=990000]O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?[/color] [b]Romans 7:24[/b]
The Law is one of the witnesses that God uses to proove His truth.
Quote:
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
How does this apply to our faith?
Quote:
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ toward all and upon all those who have faith; for there is no difference,
Amen!
Quote:
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Yes, the promise is Justification by faith in Jesus Christ!
Quote:
We receive the Holy Spirit by the Faith that has been given us by the Father that is in Jesus Christ.
This sounds very calvinistic;
You can't be saved unless God gives you faith.
God want all to come to repentance but won't give faith to all.
Hmmmm!
Quote:
Without the Spirit of Christ by the Faith that has been given us to believe by the Father, which is the Faith of Jesus Christ by the Power and sealing of the Holy Spirit in Christ Jesus.
So, your saying that with out God giving us faith, He won't give us the Holy Spirit.
That would not make it not up to us to be saved but up to him, therefore, we are not guilty for denying him because he didn't give us what we need to recieve Him.
Quote:
After hearing the word of truth is when our faith is heard of because it is now the Faith of Jesus Christ given by the Father and sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Notice Paul wrote, "in whom also after that ye believed"
Our responsability is to believe wich is the same word as "to have faith".
Quote:
Believe by His [b]Spirit of Faith[/b], therefore we speak.
[b]2Corinth 4:11-14[/b] [color=990000]For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
[b]:12[/b] So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
[b]:13[/b] We having the same [b]spirit of faith[/b], according as it is written, [u]I believed, and therefore have I spoken[/u]; we also believe, and therefore speak;
[b]:14[/b] Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.[/color]
Paul is useing the Psalm as an example and this verse accords to:
[b]psalm 116:8-10[/b] [color=990000]For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling.
[b]:9[/b] I will walk before the LORD in the land of the living.
[b]:10[/b] [u]I believed, therefore have I spoken[/u]: I was greatly afflicted:[/color]
Paul uses the term "[b]spirit of faith[/b]" as saying same attitude of of the Psalmists' faith or
The "[b]spirit of faith[/b]" as saying same "common faith" as the Psalmists' faith.
This "common faith" is also the same as our "common salvation".
[b]Titus 1:4a[/b] [color=990000]to Titus, a true child according to our [b]common faith[/b]:[/color]
And:
[b]Jude 1:3[/b] [color=990000]Having made all haste to write to you about the [b]common salvation[/b],[/color]
Furthermore, as I said before, Faith is a response to God on our part based on witnesses and undeniable proofs.
Before I was saved and had faith, God was [b]prooven[/b] to me by creation, I could not deny that there was a God.
Therefore, I became a deist.
Then, God used my conscience as [b]Romans 1:18-20[/b] & [b]Romans 2:14,15[/b] sais.
I new that I could not live up to my own standard of good and I was [b]prooven[/b] to be condemned by the law in my heart.
Then, I heard that Jesus was God because He conquered death with [b]witnesses[/b] of that resurrection to [b]prove[/b] the validity of it.
Since Jesus is God, then the Bible is the Word of God and by the beliving the Word of God I reacted with confidence to trust Jesus with my life.
This is Faith that is undeniably of my own volition!
With out these witnesses and proofes, how could there be faith?
If I am to depend my life on Him, I need to know with out a doubt that He is real.
That is faith.
God did not give me my faith but gave me the proofes, evidences, and witnesses of the reality of Himself to be trustworthy.
I love the truth, therefore I accepted those things which He was made sure by. |
| | 2006/11/30 22:17 | Profile |
| | Re: 'Faith' in what - or who | |
Hi Logic,
First, I take your point about the Law seeming to be endorsed by the New Covenant, but in fact, it is a whole set of different laws - many in which stoning had been required for misdemeanours - defined by Jesus, mainly, and expounded by other New Testament writers. This is clearest in Hebrews, but all the other writers help us to understand how the Law of LOVE changes everything.
(Also, we are saved by the law of faith - Rom 3:27 - not the Mosaic law or the Old Covenant law).
Further, I don't think you can take 'saved by hope' out of its context.
Faith, is the substance of things which God has spoken into your and my heart, which did not exist prior to His word. It is for these that we hope, until we see them fulfilled in our experience.
Anyone can hope on a thought or idea, but have no assurance it will come to pass. That's the difference when God speaks, thus creating faith.
Now, I wonder who you think is praying in this psalm..... who is it who is [i][b]trusting his God[/i][/b]?
(KJV) Psalm 22
1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?
{Aijeleth...: or, the hind of the morning} {helping...: Heb. my salvation}
2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
{am...: Heb. there is no silence to me}
3 But thou [art] holy, [O thou] that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, [saying],
{shoot...: Heb. open}
8 He trusted on the LORD [that] he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
{He trusted...: Heb. He rolled himself on} {seeing...: or, if he delight in}
9 But thou [art] he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope [when I was] upon my mother's breasts.
{didst...: or, kept me in safety}
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother's belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble [is] near; for [there is] none to help. {none...: Heb. not a helper}
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong [bulls] of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me [with] their mouths, [as] a ravening and a roaring lion.
{gaped...: Heb. opened their mouths against me}
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
{out of...: or, sundered}
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
{my darling: Heb. my only one} {power: Heb. hand}
21 [b]Save me from the lion's mouth[/b]: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
Can you say the prophetically recorded heart of the subject in these words, could not possibly be Christ, because this man exercises 'faith' and 'hope'?
|
| | 2006/12/1 12:54 | |
| | Re: 'Faith' in what - or who | | Quote:
Why then was He crucified?
Logic answsered
Quote:
Because He said he was God
This implies His cricifixion was avoidable, but, Peter says otherwise, even though he is highly critical of those who found themselves carrying out God's plan:
(KJV) Acts 2:23
[b]Him, being delivered by the determinate [u]counsel[/u] and foreknowledge of God[/b], ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Calling Himself God gave them an excuse, but, like some others, those men could have believed in Him, also. |
| | 2006/12/1 13:01 | |
| | Re: 'Faith' in what - or who | |
Logic,
I appreciate your testimony of coming to faith in Christ, and I now understand why you think of it as yours, rather than His.
Please accept that some of us came a different route, and had to receive the gift of faith in order to believe, or, responded to words which God Himself spoke into our hearts through the mouths of preachers, as well as by reading His written word.
|
| | 2006/12/1 13:15 | | Christinyou
Member
Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | This is how it is different. One little preposition: of Not in.
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ toward all and upon all those who have faith; for there is no difference,
[22] even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all *and on all who believe. For there is no difference; (Rom 3:22 NKJV)
[22] This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, (Rom 3:22 NIV)
KJV
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
This is what the supple difference in the New Age Translations, which everybody is apologetically defending to the end, of giving the faith of Jesus Christ over to our faith in Jesus Christ. This way of dealing with changing of the word of God is so subtle that very few know it.
Another one that is so subtle:
[16] knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. (Gal 2:16 NKJV)
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (KJV)
And on and on:
[20] I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the [life] which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. (Gal 2:20 NKJV)
Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (KJV)
:22 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
If righteousness came by the Law that is what our Faith is depending on; I must have faith to be saved and The Faith of Christ died with Him and in vain. In other words, It is not the faith of Jesus Christ that saves us by His work and the Work of God the Father but it is our faith that saves us. So making Christ of none effect when it comes to salvation, it is all up to us. It was not Abraham's faith that imputed righteousness to him, but the Faith of God in Abraham that would give him righteousness, for Abraham's faith was dead, just like ours.
Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
Who made him a father of many nations?
Gen 17:15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah [shall] her name [be].
Gen 17:17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall [a child] be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
Abraham even wanted his son out of wedlock to be the heir.
Genesis 17:18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
God made it pretty clear that He said no, and after telling Abraham what He was going to do, God stopped talking to Abraham about it.
Genesis 17:19-22 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
Saving Faith is of God not man. Believing in Jesus Christ takes and act of the Holy Spirit to convict of sin and The Faith of Jesus Christ to save us unto the sealing of Christ's Spirit in to One Body, His Church, through Holy Spirit baptism.
1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
This is our living water baptism.
1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
The Living Water flowing from the source and the Blood of Christ saving us by His own Faith that is birthed in us unto our new life in Christ Jesus, all new creatures in whom we live and move and have our being in Him.
Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Jhn 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
His is our all in all.
In Christ, by and of Christ Himself: Phillip
_________________
Phillip
|
| | 2006/12/1 22:38 | Profile | Logic
Member
Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791
| | Re: | | Sorry,I Edited it to add more.
Quote:
dorcas wrote:
First, I take your point about the Law seeming to be endorsed by the New Covenant, but in fact, it is a whole set of different laws - many in which stoning had been required for misdemeanours - defined by Jesus, mainly, and expounded by other New Testament writers. This is clearest in Hebrews, but all the other writers help us to understand how the Law of LOVE changes everything.
(Also, we are saved by the law of faith - Rom 3:27 - not the Mosaic law or the Old Covenant law).
The Law of love is the Law of Crist.
[b]Galatians 6:2[/b] [color=990000]Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.[/color] This is clearly love.
Romans 13:8,10, Galatians 5:14, James 2:8
And
[b]1Corinth 9:21[/b] [color=990000]to those without Law as without Law (not being without Law of God, but [b]under the [u]law of Christ[/u][/b]), that I might gain those without Law.[/color]
And again, the Law of love is the Law of Crist, which is the law writen on our hearts in the New Covenant.
[b]Mat 22:36-40[/b] [color=990000]Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[b]:37[/b] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[b]:38[/b] This is the first and great commandment.
[b]:39[/b] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[b]:40[/b] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.[/color]
[u]However, it says:[/u]
[b]Romans 3:20-22[/b] [color=990000]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[b]:21[/b] But now the righteousness of God has been revealed apart from Law, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[b]:22[/b] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith in Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:[/color]
Therefore, the [b]Law of Faith[/b] is trusting in christ to fulfill the Law in you.
However, if we are in Christ, we naturaly fulfill the Law because of [b]Romans 10:4[/b] [color=990000]For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness [sake] to every one that believeth.[/color]
Quote:
Further, I don't think you can take 'saved by hope' out of its context.
Faith, is the substance of things which God has spoken into your and my heart, which did not exist prior to His word. It is for these that we hope, until we see them fulfilled in our experience.
I am not taking 'saved by hope' out of its context, please learn what real Hope is from the Bible.
Hope is confidence in a future event; the highest degree of well founded expectation of good; as a hope founded on God's gracious promises; a scriptural sense.
[b]Hebrews 6:18-19[/b] [color=990000]that through two unchangeable things, in which it was not possible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, those having fled to lay [u]hold on the [b]hope[/b] set before us[/u],
[b]:19[/b] [u]which [b]hope[/b] we have as an anchor of the soul[/u], both certain and sure, and entering into the inner side of the veil[/color]
Furthermore, please don't twist what or how the Bible exlains what faith is.
It is notQuote:
Faith, is the substance of things which God has spoken into your and my heart, which did not exist prior to His word.
but the substance of things [b]hoped for[/b]!
What do we hope for?
The resurection of our bodies from coruptible(able to die) to incoruptable(eternal life).
What is the Substance of that Hope?
It is the fruit of righteousness. In other words, a changed life, a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that you do.
What is the the "evidence" of things not seen?
The evidence are these new aspects of our life that become [u]actions or works that give a [b]testimony of Christ in you[/u][/b].
Furthermore, what is it which you said, "did not exist prior to His word"?
It is the Truth of reality in which Gods Word speeks of that we must take hold of.
What is it that did exist prior to His word?
Lies, that do not line up the reality of the Truth.
Quote:
Anyone can hope on a thought or idea, but have no assurance it will come to pass. That's the difference when God speaks, thus creating faith.
You are thinking about the wrd "wish" that is a totaly difrent thing than "hope".
Furthermore, Our Hope will come to pass because, [b]Hebews 6:18[/b] [color=990000]That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:[/color]
What creates this Faith is us acknowleging the Truth and acting on it!
Quote:
Can you say the prophetically recorded heart of the subject in these words, could not possibly be Christ, because this man exercises 'faith' and 'hope'?
Can you please explain how Jesus, knowing He is God, needs hope even though [b]He knows[/b] for fact [b]that He is[/b] that which we hope for?
Furthermore, can you Please explain how Jesus, knowing He is God, needs Faith even though [b]He knows[/b] for fact [b]that He is[/b] that which we have faith in?
One can not have faith or hope for what one already is or has!
Quote:
dorcas wrote:
Please accept that some of us came a different route.
There is only one "route"
He is the Door!
[b]John 10:1[/b] [color=990000]Truly, truly, I say to you, The one not entering through the door into the sheepfold, but going up by another way, that one is a thief and a plunderer.[/color]
Quote:
and had to receive the gift of faith in order to believe, or, responded to words which God Himself spoke into our hearts through the mouths of preachers, as well as by reading His written word.
What?
You had to "choose to respond?
Isn't that what I am saying and have been saying?
Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
This is how it is different. One little preposition: of Not in.
I've already prooven that you cant use this reasoning, because you are judging the oters by a translation, this is eronious.
You must compair with the Greek!
[b]Romans 3:22[/b] [color=990000]δικαιοσύνη δὲ Θεου διὰ πίστεως ᾿Ιησου Χριστου εις πάντας καὶ επὶ πάντας τοὺς πιστεύοντας· ου γάρ εστιν διαστολή· [/color]
[u]This is what you should compair to[/u]:
righteousnesse now God through faith Jesus Christ into all haveing-faith not for is distinction
[b]Translatiion:[/b]
but the righteousness God through faith Jesus Christ to all and upon all the ones believing, for there is no distinction.
Quote:
This is what the supple difference in the New Age Translations, which everybody is apologetically defending to the end, of giving the faith of Jesus Christ over to our faith in Jesus Christ. This way of dealing with changing of the word of God is so subtle that very few know it.
Some Bible versions are essentially literal translation that seeks as far as possible to capture the precise wording of the original text and the personal style of each Bible writer. As such, its emphasis is on word-for-word correspondence, at the same time taking into account differences of grammar, syntax, and idiom between current literary English and the original languages. Thus it seeks to be transparent to the original text, letting the reader see as directly as possible the structure and meaning of the original.
In contrast to the the literal translations, some Bible versions have followed a thought-for-thought rather than word-for-word translation philosophy, emphasizing dynamic equivalence rather than the essentially literal meaning of the original. A thought-for-thought translation is of necessity more inclined to reflect the writers meaning of the Scripture.
Furthermore, has your neighbor ever heard of the word "Raca"?
This word is not in todays English vocabulary.
No one would guess that it means "a senseless, empty headed man".
We need a Word that people of today can understand.
Know one would understand anyone today that speeks like the KJV.
Hear is a statement that a "KJV only" advocate would use to defend his point useing the language of the KJV:
"Sith the noise of the bruit of this school hath reached to thee-ward, we trust that our concourse liketh you well-particularly those who blaze abroad that there is error here.
Whoso setteth thee against us-whoso saith we offend all-speaketh leasing. We be not affrighted, but withal, we are straightened in our bowels. We knoweth well that what thou wilst hear straightway wilt fast close up thy thoughts. With som we be abjects, some have defied us; but there has been no daysman betwixt us. They subvert the simple!"
So, please do not give an argument on translations for this thread, they hold no water, only give logical statements that are scriptural.
Quote:
If righteousness came by the Law that is what our Faith is depending on;
I thought I coverd this already.
Quote:
In other words, It is not the faith of Jesus Christ that saves us by His work and the Work of God the Father but it is our faith that saves us.
It is [u][b]our[/b] Faith [b]in[/b][/u] Jesus Christ that saves us [b]based on[/b] His work and the Work of God the Father.
Quote:
So making Christ of none effect when it comes to salvation, it is all up to us.
It is all up to [b]Who Jesus is[/b] and [b]Jesus' work on the cross[/b] and [b]His reserection[/b] that we have our faith in.
Quote:
It was not Abraham's faith that imputed righteousness to him, but the Faith of God in Abraham that would give him righteousness, for Abraham's faith was dead, just like ours.
Please understand.
It was his faith that moved him to obay God, and his obediance is what prooved his Faith to be alive.
[b]James 2:20-24[/b] [color=990000]But are you willing to know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is dead?
[b]:21[/b] Was not our father Abraham justified by works offering up his son Isaac on the altar?
[b]:22[/b] You see that faith worked with his works; and out of the works the faith was made perfected.
[b]:23[/b] And the Scripture was fulfilled, saying, "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted for righteousness to him;" and he was called, Friend of God.
[b]:24[/b] You see, then, that a man is justified out of works, and not out of faith only.[/color]
What is the works but our own choice to obey?
How can we obey without choosing to acknowlegr that God it True?
Quote:
Saving Faith is of God not man. Believing in Jesus Christ takes and act of the Holy Spirit to convict of sin and The Faith of Jesus Christ to save us unto the sealing of Christ's Spirit in to One Body, His Church, through Holy Spirit baptism.
"Saving Faith" is what Abraham did offering up his son Isaac on the altar?
"Believing in Jesus Christ takes" loveing the Truth after Holy Spirit to convicts of sin!
The Object of our faith is in or on "Jesus Christ to save us unto the sealing of Christ's Spirit...." |
| | 2006/12/2 15:25 | Profile |
|
