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Hearing from a minister that is in Rwanda (pentecostal) preaching the word of God in truth, he states that the country has never been so impacted by Joyce Meyer's ministry coming there.

With all due respect, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (aka the Mormons) are having what could be called a "positive impact" in South America. Many are converting to that religion, leaving behind lives filled with violence for "new" lives filled with morality and family values.

Let state loud and clear... I praise God for any true conversions that have happened due to Joyce Meyer's ministry. I, myself, was saved in a Charismatic WOF church. The truth is the truth even if it comes wrapped up in heresy... and people have even come to Christ due to Benny Hinn's ministry... but that does not make him any less of a false teacher, and it does not mean that [b]we[/b] do not have an obligation to be obedient to the Word of God. The Word of God tells us to [b]MARK AND AVOID[/b] false teachers.

It's like vehicles... A moped will get you from point A to point B... but it isnt the greatest form of transportation. Thats how I view these false teachers. There is enough truth for a person to get saved, but it isnt the best way. And in many cases a person may get saved thru their ministry, but it isnt very long before the heresies can ship wreck their faith.

Recently I read an article about a network in the UK (and perhaps some of our British brethren on this forum can confirm this) called God TV. God TV is a carbon copy of TBN here in the states. Same so-called preachers, same heretical teachings. I'll see if I can find that article online and link it into this thread. Anyway, it was an excellent article exposing the incredible heresy of the WOF movement.

The ends never justify the means. Even when we look at it with our human pea-brains and say "Look at all the good!" ... God still looks and you and me, and says "But I have called you to be obedient even when the evidence seems to indicate otherwise!"

Deception is just that... deceptive!


 2006/10/30 8:41

 Re: Ray Comfort on Joyce Meyer

Hi John,

It seems that you are willing to write of [i]all[/i] ministry by females?

In my post earlier, I referred to the setting of an assembly of Christians, where the 'men' (elders) are [i]free[/i] to allow women to speak.... women who are rightly related to them - husband (if they have one) - and to God.

Do you disagree with such liberty being exercised in some assemblies?

Do the same scriptures you quote apply equally to evangelism?

To motherhood?

What about a single mother, who comes to know the Lord? Is she allowed to guide her family towards Him, in His nurture and admonition, expounding the scriptures as she understands their relevance to her family's needs?

Here's another scenario..... I was brought up on the missionfield, in a territory evangelised by an unmarried woman (Mary Slessor), and where [i]lady[/i] missionaries arrived without husbands (and of course, some left [i]with[/i] husbands :-) ). Incidentally, this is what happened to Hudson Taylor.... He met his wife, who was a 20 year old lady missionary in the same country....

I am interested to hear how you separate between the evangelism of someone like Joyce Meyer (in the West, in a blaze of media publicity) and Mary Slessor (for example), whose circumstances where so different.

How do you view, qualify or accommodate, the ministry of Amy Carmichael, for instance?

What about Gladys Aylward, who KNEW God was calling her to China, and who was eventually respected by the very mission societies who at first [i]refused[/i] to support her - woman of very lowly social status.

In other words, where and when is God free to send a woman to do a man's work, and when should men give them the respect they deserve for being God's chosen vessel in certain circumstances....?

I have heard it said (more than once) that God has to fall back on women sometimes, because the men He asked in the first place, refused.....

 2006/10/30 8:49

Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


she has "usurped" the the headship

Well, John you may be right. That is not my area of concern. I don't know if God had intended a male figure to do her job.

The far greater concern is the usurping of authority from GOD. That has paralyzed the church for centuries. In fact, the further the church gets out from under divine athority, the closer it gets to the RC model - where a human being stands between a person and God.

I had to repent of that my own false understanding of authority. For years, I had put my church leaders between me and God in my life. I never even knew what it was to hear God's voice directly, or to seek the Spirit to help me interpret scripture. In fact, if the Lord hadn't rescued me from that worldly understanding of authority, I would still be hell-bound. God clearly said to me, 'It's time to grow up.'

Of course religous leaders like to maintain control of the people (ungodly authority), so when God calls his own, their "cart" gets upset. It was like that for Christ and his followers.

When there is a proper submission to God, then human relationships will also align properly.



 2006/10/30 8:49Profile

Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


Yes, sometime God may use the "exception" to accomplish a goal. However He does not want it to become the "rule".

And yet God's RULE seems to be to do the EXCEPTION. He tends to turn ladders upside down. He lowers those on the higher rungs, and lifts up those on the lower rungs.

The safest place to be is on the bottom. (and I don't mean like King Saul who hid in the baggage)
Humbly serve God in the area where he assigns us, and trust in HIM. Go forth with confidence and courage! That is the kind of men and women who have been advancing the kingdom!



 2006/10/30 9:12Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Challenged to enlargement

Can you be blessed by THAT woman's testimony?

Unbelievably so ... Read through the section on what the whole family went through during the Boxer rebellion...

Oh for some sanctified perspective people!

Time and again the things being overlooked while being preoccupied with all the mechanics. Forget Joyce and Ray for a moment or at least all the selective opinionating, wishful thinking, ought's and shoulds ... it is greatly besides the point if we cannot listen to the heart of the words coming from our lips, what of those mechanisms?
Would venture to state that I have a variety of opinion on a great deal of Joyce Myer and having followed a great deal of her ministry early on and later from afar, recognizing a very mixed bag of help to many women close to me, young and old and just as well many an area of problematic items. But I will not speak to any of it rather attempt to get us to look to our own selves and to the wonder of ease at which the commentary can flow often on scant evidence but the greater issue not asked is, [i]why[/i]?

At what point do we not just leave well enough alone? At what point do we refuse to have our perspective altered from fixed positions of opinion and presuppositions? What of the seeming antagonism that lurks below the surface, the taste of bitterness, the hint's of self-righteousness, the [i]want[/i] of passing judgment?

Brothers and sisters my heart ... This is as good a place as any to allow this to come forth. I love you dear people, even those which can cause so much flabbergasting at times at the wonder of just seemingly missing the greater point. But alas, that is too because I so often have and still do much the same. We can get ourselves very much caught up in these things all the while the Lord would have us concentrating elsewhere. Redundantly, there is room, there is times and seasons, it is to dissuade nothing by way of discussion here.

My prayers this morning turned towards a taking stock of things. The thankfulness for untold mercies and the Lords peculiar leadings, promises I know that He has given that have yet to see their fruition, they will come and they will be as He has intimated to my heart, mine is but to trust and wait, praying always, shall I doubt Him? Heavens no, the Lord is faithful.

This place, this outpost along the way ... Dear people, do you fully recognize what is going on about us? That the Lord raised up this humble man, Greg, to refill the earth with His truth through such an incredible and even 'unorthodox' means? Learning begets thinking and visa versa. Have said it before but if one wants a spiritual education in the things of the Lord it can be found here and that by no means make it exclusive or entirely ...

We now have members all over the world ... It is staggering to stop long enough to just ponder [i]that[/i]! Surely many a site could boast similarly, but I am thinking more directionally. The give and take, the sharing of hearts and experience and of other resources ... the links to books and forgotten saints, missionary's, preachers, workers, interceder's.

The variety of experience ... what is gender in general as it amounts to hearts here? Yes, I know what the scripture states and am not at odds with it in any such way. For this purpose I am speaking about hearts.

How about authority? Do we know what it is, is it recognizable without having to draw particular attention to it? Chip Brogden recently spoke to it;


"Let no one despise your youth, but be an example to the believers in
word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity" (I Timothy

In the Church that Jesus is building, an older person is not
necessarily a spiritual elder. We do not look to the age of a
person's physical body when determining their spiritual maturity. Of
course, we owe a certain amount of respect to the aged by virtue of
their seniority; but they may not necessarily be our elder in the
things of the Lord.

One can be older chronologically and be quite immature in spiritual
matters. Likewise, a relatively young man or woman can have a deep
relationship with the Lord and be light years ahead of those two or
three times their age. A young man or woman who knows God is more
elder than a senior citizen who does not know God. We cannot judge by
the flesh, or we will be misled.


In a follow up...


"Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of
you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility" (I Peter

If our desire is for maturity, that is, if we desire to come to the
full-knowledge of Christ and grow up into Him in all things, we
should naturally pay attention to those who are elder in the Lord.
But being an elder has nothing to do with leadership ability, filling
an office, having a title, or performing some ministerial duty or
sacerdotal function in the church. The elders are simply those who
are older in the Lord. It is quite simple. My elder brother, or my
elder sister, has walked with the Lord longer than I have. The
implication is that they are more conformed to the image of Christ
than myself; they have experienced a deeper work of the Cross than I
have; thus, they have more practical wisdom than I do, they have
something to teach me, and I need to hear Christ in them so I, too,
can grow.

It should be obvious to you who is, and who is not, your elder in the
Lord. And, it should be plain to see that not everyone who is older
is necessarily elder. If you say you are a believer but you live no
differently from the world then you can be as old as Methuselah yet
you are certainly not an elder.


A thought occurred this morning about this vast holding ground here... What about revival? So many different faucets to this; Personal, corporate ... is this a revival in our midst, here? This stripping back of religion and the "Christendom" of our day to see what's back of it? To ask and answer the question, is it [i]real[/i]? Our faith and trust and prayer, growing, developing, spurned on? Can anyone become stagnant traversing through this wonderland? On this question of revival, I admit it comes and it goes, but the challenge this morning was, if my brother desires it so much more perhaps than I, can I yet still join to his desire? Pray for and align myself with his wishes? Do we have this sort of intercession for each other, even on other matters?

Again, do we recognize the authority that the Lord has placed in our midst? Will not name names, but there are those that know the Lord in far greater measure in our midst, how happy am I that they continue on with us ... the learning, the changes, the matters that put me to contemplation and even more prayer.

All this to ask, has the love of God and the inexpressible wonder of His son, the reality of [i]I in you and you in Me[/i] gripped us, caused the reaction of praise and heart worship to come forth out of the depths of our being, giving great glory to God for everything?!

Oh it has to this poor fool... The changes people, the beautiful and wondrous changes, daily, moment to moment ... [i]have you considered?[/i] often springing to mind.

Saints, put yourself to praying and breathing God's word, allow yourself the blessing to wonder at His way's and means, how lovely, how peculiar!
Especially amidst such a peculiar people that we in fact are. Absorb and abide! Partake of what is made ready for you by this provision the Lord has granted such a great privilege.

Mike Balog

 2006/10/30 9:20Profile


Hi Dorcas I will try and answer.

I primarly in my prev post deal with a women being a pastor/ teacher over men in the church.

I would have to give liberty to speak because I know we have that in many churches. Preferably if she has aprophecy to deliver that can be tested by the other prophets.

Concerning evangelism i would say the ladies are free to evangelize if they want.

Motherhood of course the mother must teach her son's things. However when they become men she and the husband can only give advice. The son who is now a man must be the man. more could be said of that....

Concerning missionary work.The "ideal" scenario is that if there are no men initialy then the work must be done by the women till either men show up or men get born again and then when mature they take the place of pastoring and teaching.

God Almighty is free to make exceptions whenever He pleases. But often it is because the men will not go for various reasons. But also some women want to hold that position for reasons that are not good.Often there are traces of feminism.

You know each time I have made the recent posts here it is with shaky fingers and a increased heart beat of nervousness. I can tell Diane that what I am saying is irritating you and I am sorry. My intent is to convey that there are even greater blessing for the church for men and for women when we submitt to what God through Paul taught concerning Who should teach etc.

Quoting Paul saying "there is no male or female in Christ" does not make void what Paul says else where about order in the church and roles of men and women in the church.

Well hopefully even though you may not agree with me you can at least know that I still greatly appreciate humble ministries of christian women.
God bless, John

 2006/10/30 10:23

Joined: 2006/5/30
Posts: 94
Edmonton, AB, Canada


In regards to missionary work...

Concerning missionary work.The "ideal" scenario is that if there are no men initialy then the work must be done by the women till either men show up or men get born again and then when mature they take the place of pastoring and teaching.

If you've ever heard or read anything about Nate Saint and the 5 men that made initial contact with the Waodani tribe in Ecuador, you can see a good example of the order of things.

The men were all killed, not so much because they were men, but because they were misrepresented by a native who lied to his people. The women, being submissive and viewed as a non-threat, came in and lived with the natives and showed the love of Christ in their actions and words.

Once the natives' hostility was ended, and as Steve Saint grew into a man, he seems to now be the man in authority in harmony and alongside the male elders of the tribe.

My take on this is that there are some places that [i]only women[/i] will be able to minister. These women were under submission to their husbands and once deceased, they came under the submission of the native males but more importantly, God.

I'm not endorsing JM, here...trying to show that there are indeed exceptions but never opposing Scripture. Shouldn't God be allowed to do what He will? I love the men AND women of God, together or individually, who do so much to advance the Kingdom and have brought spiritual blessings, encouragement, and yes, teachings into my life.

Every[i]one[/i] will have to give account to God on the Day of Judgement...

May my words be few, and when they are, let them be Spirit-led.


Brad Wright

 2006/10/30 11:40Profile

Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7494

 Re: Men, how would you interpret...?

If you want a controversy, just start talking about females in ministry! I have been following this discussion without saying a whole lot, but must say I do appreciate many posters input...

As I was thinking about this, I always keep wondering how the males on this forum would interpret 1 Corinthians 11, how it would look like where the rubber meets the road: Consider the words "prophesy" in vs. 4-5; "power" in vs. 10; "head" vs. 3-5,10; the role of angels as noted in vs. 10.

Just an observation: my DH and I own and operate greenhouses growing tomatoes hydroponically. Both of us are deeply involved and it could not be done well without the other. We have learned to listen carefully and take seriously the observations made by each other and act on it. There is a vast difference is the observations made by us: I notice the plants ( I saw two dead white flies!) - what they need or do not need; my DH is concerned about the mechanical things: did the heaters run? what about the injectors? etc., etc. Both insights are essential to do the job well. The experts tell us when you have a husband and wife team operating a business like ours, it is much more successful because of the inherent abilities due to the nature of being a male and female: both work to compliment each other. In our businees we work for success of the venture. Our goals are the same and we see the other as indispensible in its operation. Initially we thought the other was paranoid and got aggravated, at times, with what he/she was suggesting be done. We have learned to submit to each others' observations because experience has proven it to be the best and failure to do so brought unpleasant consequences.

Perhaps something can be learned from this? What would happen if the brotherhood of believers would be able to recognize the limitations and strengths - according to the Scriputures - of males and females and allow the Spirit of God to use each and forget about ego?

Now back to my original questions: I wish the males on here would share their imput on how they would define these words and the practical aspects of it.


Sandra Miller

 2006/10/30 14:49Profile

 Re: Ray Comfort on Joyce Meyer

Hi John,

Thanks for your reply.

I do appreciate that there is a reason for God's order and when it works, it should be a blessing to all.

However, it is carried to such extremes by some men, so that other men (even) and many women are not allowed to exercise their gifts within the Body, that I felt is was worth stretching out the ways in which what Paul said is regularly not in operation within the Church.

I also agree that there is a place for both men and women being deemed unready or unfit for public office within a local church.

As a Brit, I am bemused by the phenomenon of US tv evangelism and the fertile ground it seems to offer for people going off the rails or never getting on to them in the first place. Then you have a testimony like Krispy's, where he met God in a denomination he now criticises freely for its false doctrine, proving yet again God's sovreignty over 'false' teachings.

He who has an ear to hear, hears God when He speaks, despite the assumptions which may be being made by the hearers on topics yet unaddressed.


Thanks. :-)

 2006/10/30 14:59


Then you have a testimony like Krispy's, where he met God in a denomination he now criticises freely for its false doctrine, proving yet again God's sovreignty over 'false' teachings.

Partly true... God can prevail over false teachings... but that does not excuse false teachers, nor does it excuse us in being disobedient toward scripture in how we should deal with it.


 2006/10/30 15:03

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