| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: Gate Beautiful ... Salvation opportunity missed? | |
Hi Annie,
I'll begin with your last point, which countered mine.
Quote:
[b]In my name shall[/b] 'they'
Maybe we have two halves of the truth here. 'In my name' which is about abiding in the Vine, and the appropriating of His Name by the believer. This is not something one can step in and out of. That's not 'abiding'.
Perhaps healings don't flow because Christians, (a term which should be synonymous with [i]believers[/i]) don't [i][b]believe[/b][/i] that being [u]in Jesus Name[/u] gives them the authority and the power?
Secondly, let me apologise for throwing my unrefined response at you before dropping offline for many hours. I realise now you [i]did qualify[/i] your post near the beginning with
Quote:
my post was a "humankind" statement and not based on 'one or two person's inability to get their eyes off of self.'
Then you said
Quote:
It would be odd to say, there are those who do have their eyes on self, and mean that there are those who don't. That would be 'theologically' incorrect... because there is no such human.
That is human nature and to the degree we are out of "human nature" to that degree we are free to allow Him to work 'through' us.
And I think that's where I began to notice that I don't agree. You are saying that 'human nature' is unhelpful to God's agenda, in that we have to be 'out of' it, to be 'free to allow Him to work 'through' us'. I see a big difficulty with this statement. Are you sure that is what you really meant?
It is probably better if I don't say more, until you've answered this question, if you would. I will explain why I'm not, if you are still happy with your statement. |
|  2006/3/27 6:45 | |
| | Re: Gate Beautiful... Salvation opportunity missed? | | I said Quote:
..although I know the New Testament says that 'He gave THEM [b]power[/b] to ...'
I think this has led to a lot of confusion in the minds of Christians, because [b]such power[/b] would be a real hot potato and I don't believe a Christian can use [b]it[/b] properly unless they are well and truly abiding in the Vine. [u]That's the deal and that's the challenge[/u].
Annie askedQuote:
It is the LORD Who heals. I think you know that I knew that.
My question back. You said "use it properly" .... what "it" are we discussing here ?
Annie, Is 'it' clearer now?
I was wondering if we receive power in the way the disciples did...Mark 6:7, Luke 9:1, Matthew 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. (KJV)
Because I'd say that Pentecost changed everything even if only slightly. Jesus never told the disciples to abide in Him at that point, but, later He said 'without me you can do nothing' in John 15:5.
|
| | 2006/3/27 6:58 | |
| | Re: | | G'day again,
I think I need to go get the Debate rules off of that old Apologetic site ... Ha.
Quote:
Maybe we have two halves of the truth here.
That would be nice to see.
Quote:
You are saying that 'human nature' is unhelpful to God's agenda, in that we have to be 'out of' it, to be 'free to allow Him to work 'through' us'. I see a big difficulty with this statement. Are you sure that is what you really meant?
This is a no-no Dorcas :-D .
You are telling what the other person is "saying" rather than posing it first as a Question. The question at the end of the thought, does not neutralize what you've already stated as fact.
Being a Romans 8 fan and understanding fully what "walking in the Spirit" is, this is when our "souls" come under the Obedience to the Spirit as Jesus made Himself subject in just that way. He was not "out of it".
When we walk in the flesh, we are not in God's will ... Walking in the Spirit is the soul aligned to the Spirit in obedience and having the mind of Christ Himself. We choose which way to walk.
By our own intellects or craftiness or in humble subjection and dependence on His leading, Etc.
No Zombies dear. Just obedient Sheep that Know His Voice and follow of their own freewills and to the degree that they do hear, to that degree they are moving IN HIM and not 'self'.
Quote:
It is probably better if I don't say more, until you've answered this question, if you would. I will explain why I'm not, if you are still happy with your statement.
It wasn't exactly posed as a question, not when the opening words are "You are saying ..." but more as an assumption and yes, it is probably better that you ended it there.
This oughta be FUN. :-D
Looking forward to this now.
|
| | 2006/3/27 7:23 | |
| | Re: Gate Beautiful ... Salvation opportunity missed? | | Dear Annie,
In the post which you were answering, I quoted you verbatim, [i]before[/i] I told you what I thought you meant. This is called 'communication'.....
ie you said 'x' ... now let me put 'x' into my own words... 'blah blah' Did 'blah blah' say what you meant by 'x'.... It didn't.... Ok, please try again before I explain why I disagree.
That was a very fair proposition from me. Please don't knock it!
This is what I've been [i]taught[/i] about how to ensure that communication is [u]successful[/u]. I am [i]not[/i] trying to put words into your mouth. I'm telling you what I understood you were saying, from the background of my [u]own set[/u] of preconceptions.
I know we'll have to go real slow, but, as you said, it should 'be fun'... at least I acknowledge there is [i]potential[/i] for enjoyment. |
| | 2006/3/27 7:40 | |
| | Re: | | Dorcas, your second post about "it" ... I still have problems with the word "it" as in your words ... "use it properly".
We don't "use" an "it". We don't "use" anything in Christ. We can "be" used, but not "use" it ... and the "it" is the Spirit of Christ. So no "using" Him. [b]He[/b] 'uses' yielded vessels.
Quote:
Because I'd say that Pentecost changed everything even if only slightly.
Your verses -Mark 6:7, Luke 9:1, Matthew 10:1 - were prior to Pentecost.
Pentecost did not change things "only slightly".
What happened to the 120 after Pentecost was beyond even what they had received After He had resurrected and "breathed on them and said receive ye the Holy Spirit" which was even After your three verses above.
Your "power" verse that I think you're looking for Post-Pentecost is Mark 16:17,18.
Gotta go take care of my flesh friend. Unfortunately. Ha.
TTYL
me
|
| | 2006/3/27 7:43 | |
| | Re: Gate Beautiful... Salvation opportunity missed? | |
Now Annie, to answer your first answer. First I will quote your original statement for which I asked clarification.
You said
Quote:
to the degree we are out of "human nature" to that degree we are free to allow Him to work 'through' us.
In your reply you said
Quote:
Being a Romans 8 fan and understanding fully what "walking in the Spirit" is, this is when our "souls" come under the Obedience to the Spirit as Jesus made Himself subject in just that way. He was not "out of it".
When we walk in the flesh, we are not in God's will ... Walking in the Spirit is the soul aligned to the Spirit in obedience and having the mind of Christ Himself.
Without wishing to be overly difficult, I can't see a reference to 'human nature' in your response.
When you used the phrase 'human nature' in your first statement, did you mean 'flesh'? |
| | 2006/3/27 7:49 | |
| | Re: | | That's a lot of x's there Dorcas ... I hope they're "hugs" ... even with the blah, blahs. :-)
You said that you were quoting me "verbatim", but as one would pull a verse of Scripture out of context I'm afraid. For as you stated earlier, it was a "lengthy post" and had it been taken in context, with the whole, your assumption would not have come about.
Quote:
In the post which you were answering, I quoted you verbatim, before I told you what I thought you meant. This is called 'communication'.....
I am not trying to put words into your mouth.
No friend, read your words again. You did not tell me what you "thought" I meant ... You said "[u]You are saying[/u]", there's a difference there and that 'is' putting words in another's mouth.
To imply uncertainty in what the other was saying, your sentence would have been posed as a question. But it was stated as a fact of what the person believes.
If you say "red green blue" to me and I come back with "you are saying 'orange, yellow, black'" then I have put words in your mouth.
This would not be "successful communicating."
May I ask where I was "knocking" you ?
I don't see nor feel a mocking attitude right now, nor do I plan to "mock" [i]you[/i].
Quote:
I know we'll have to go real slow
Why this necessity ?
Not once I go to bed and wake up again. Then we can go at any speed you'd like. Only problem is, you're normally not awake here when I am. But who knows, it may work out, if you've found it needful thus far.
In the meantime. Rather than dissect my 'Lengthy' post on this previous page ... maybe read it as it was intended ... my thoughts.
Oh I see I have another to answer before I can get some sleep. Bless your heart.
BRB
|
| | 2006/3/27 8:13 | |
| | Re: | | Quote:
dorcas wrote:
Now Annie, to answer your first answer. First I will quote your original statement for which I asked clarification.
You said
Quote:
to the degree we are out of "human nature" to that degree we are free to allow Him to work 'through' us.
In your reply you said
Quote:
Being a Romans 8 fan and understanding fully what "walking in the Spirit" is, this is when our "souls" come under the Obedience to the Spirit as Jesus made Himself subject in just that way. He was not "out of it".
When we walk in the flesh, we are not in God's will ... Walking in the Spirit is the soul aligned to the Spirit in obedience and having the mind of Christ Himself.
Without wishing to be overly difficult, I can't see a reference to 'human nature' in your response.
When you used the phrase 'human nature' in your first statement, did you mean 'flesh'?
If your soul is not your 'human nature' than what pray tell is ?
We are a trichotomy ... body, soul and spirit.
The body has no nature, the spirit is not our human nature, (wish to God that it were), so only the soul can possess the human nature.
Nite-Nite.
Love you.
TTYL
|
| | 2006/3/27 8:19 | |
| | Re: Gate Beautiful ... Salvation opportunity missed? | |
Dear Annie,
I have not returned to your original post to complete my comments on it, because I'm still trying to understand as much as possible what you meant by 'human nature'.
In your last post, you have [b]stated[/b]
Quote:
The body has no nature, the spirit is not our human nature, (wish to God that it were), so only the soul can possess the human nature.
'The body has no nature'. Could you please supply scripture for that?
'the spirit is not our human nature'. How do you define 'the spirit'. For instance, before a person is born again, do they have a spirit? (I asked that just to be clear.)
Lastly you say 'only the soul can possess the human nature'.
My question is then, when you said originally (p3)
Quote:
That is human nature [b]and to the degree we are [u]out of "human nature"[/u] to that degree [u]we are free to allow Him[/u] to work 'through' us[/b].
I'm trying to think of a way to say this .... your last answer citing the soul as our 'human nature' [i]doesn't make sense[/i].... that is, it doesn't make sense [i]to me[/i]. |
| | 2006/3/28 5:47 | |
| | Re:Quotes in Bold ..... | | [b]Quote:Dorcas
I have not returned to your original post to complete my comments on it, because I'm still trying to understand as much as possible what you meant by 'human nature'.
In your last post, you have stated
Quote:Annie
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The body has no nature, the spirit is not our human nature, (wish to God that it were), so only the soul can possess the human nature.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'The body has no nature'. Could you please supply scripture for that?[/b]
This is all very easy to understand .... the definition of "body" is ....
G4983 SOMA From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave. 1) the body both of men or animals 1a) a dead body or corpse 1b) the living body 1b1) of animals 2) the bodies of planets and of stars (heavenly bodies) which word denotes the material body. Metonymically referring to the body as the external man, to which is ascribed that which strictly belongs to the person, man, individual; with a gen. of person forming a periphrasis for the person himself.
In order for the body to be "a slave" ... to 'what' is it a slave.
From the definition of "soma" one can see it has No Nature. It is just a body as vehicle and "earthen vessel" to carry soul and spirit and be slave to either.
The trichotomy is compared to "the temple". The outter man would represent the outter court where all the activity or movement was .... or body.
The soul as the "inner man" (or inner court of the temple) is that which is our 'mind/wills/desires', which makes our personality and who we are, and the spirit is where The spirit would dwell in the Holy of Holies.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man (soul)
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man (soul)
2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward (body) man perish, yet the inward man (soul) is renewed day by day.
The body {soma} is only a vehicle, called in the Word our "earthen vessels." It is but a shell. The brain is the battlefield or computer that sends the signals to the body. When the soul and spirit leaves the body, the brain waves cease and the body is dead.
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead,
The body has no "mind of it's own". When one's brain is in a comma, their bodies feel no pain or pleasure.
The soul can be likened to the "mind or heart" of a person in Biblical terms. But the body without the soul is dead. And the body does not control nor make decisions apart from the soul. The Soul or "psuche" is where we get our word for [u]Psychology[/u] - the study of the mind. It (the psuche) is used in Act 14:2 and Heb_12:3 as "minds".
[b]Quote:Dorcas
'the spirit is not our human nature'. How do you define 'the spirit'. For instance, before a person is born again, do they have a spirit? (I asked that just to be clear.)[/b]
Before regeneration, the spirit is dead ... after regeneration the Spirit of the Lord inhabits the spirit of the human. The Spirit takes residence in our spirit. Our spirit is that which communicates the things of the Spirit into our spirit and then hopefully, we allow (through freewill) our souls/mind to be sensitive to that leading of the spirit within ... ( a person that is not saved, may be indwelled by 'a' spirit).
1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Rom 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace
[b]Quote:Dorcas
Lastly you say 'only the soul can possess the human nature'.
My question is then, when you said originally (p3)
Quote:Annie
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is human nature and to the degree we are out of "human nature" to that degree we are free to allow Him to work 'through' us.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm trying to think of a way to say this .... your last answer citing the soul as our 'human nature' doesn't make sense.... that is, it doesn't make sense to me.[/b]
To word my quote better, to the degree that we have 'submitted' our souls to the will or leading of the spirit and are now "walking in the spirit" ... we are not walking after the dictates of our own human nature,{will, desires, etc.} but the will of the spirit.
Our souls - which contains "our wills" we submit or subject to and be obedient to the will of the Spirit ... IF we allow. If we lean on the Spirit to lead and are submissive to His leadings.
The Holy Spirit indwells our spirit, so the spirit is not our Human nature.
The body has no movement or life of it's own without the soul.
So our human nature that wars against the spirit is our soul.
The emnity between the soul and spirit where The Lord's spirit now dwells is seen in these verses.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit
Rom 8:4,5 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
The word for "flesh" here, is the operation of the soul. Not the body alone or the spirit.
Rom 8:8.9a So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
This is the body" which is called 'soma', but this 'flesh' is called 'sarx' ... this same word 'sarx' is also used as [b]carnal,[/b] Rom_8:7, Heb_9:10 and [b]carnally[/b] Rom_8:6
The 'workings' of the soul {sarx} or self or mind or will, is called "flesh or carnal", When it is not in submission to the spirit.
G4561 sarx human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).
"Gal 5:16-18 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. (this is "sarx" Not soma or "body")
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."
So the word for flesh is also used elsewhere for carnal - and carnality is the workings of the soul. The working out of the soul is our human nature and the spirit is His nature and they are at war. When the mind decides it wants to go out and sin with their body, or move independent of the spirit, this working is called flesh.
Again, the body has no power without the workings of the soul.
Can a body have a mind of it's own ? No. And can a body act 'carnally' without the soul/mind/flesh causing it to act out so ?
If someone puts "human nature" as "'flesh' being the 'body' initiating" .... how can the body alone get into heresies, envyings, wrath, strife, emulations, witchcraft, etc., without the "soul/mind" ? So the "flesh" is the workings of the soul/mind/self/human nature and not God's Nature, which His Spirit in ours and if we "will" to walk in the Spirit we will not chose to "walk in the flesh" (Rom 8)
Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
|
| | 2006/3/28 10:00 | |
|
