Br Gary wrote:

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Jeff Marshalek

Br. Krispy wrote:

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Jeff Marshalek

There are many things in the Catholic faith that lead men astray.

Yet, as I listened to the mass in English, (for as a child, I had only heard it in Ukranian), 90 % of the words which are repeated day after day, consist of a prayer to Jesus. In many ways the liturgy reminded me of a Psalm. I thought to myself, If only people who voiced this liturgy listened to the words that they spoke.

I also thought about all the Hymns we sing to God, and my thoughts including myself are "if only we would listened to the words we sing."

In Christ
Jeff

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Jeff Marshalek

Well Jeff, I offer up a friendly challenge :-) to you... using the Councel of Trent, show me how the Catholic Church teaches Biblical Salvation.

They may offer prayers to Jesus... but I remind you of what Jesus said... "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord Lord'..."

Krispy

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Zeke Oosthuis

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Diane

Diane,

While I certainly do not condone un-Christlike behavior, lets not forget the blood that is on the hands of the RCC. You are only telling one side of the story in your post. To ignore the murderous past of the RCC is to disrespect those who suffered and died for Christ under the rule of the RCC.

As for slashing artwork... do you know why the artwork was slashed? Two reasons: They thought it was making a graven image of God, and also the artwork depicted rank heretical teachings. I'm not convinced that it was bad thing. I wouldnt resort to that myself, but I can understand why they did it and sympathize with it.

At Bob Jones University (in Greenville SC) there is a Museum & Gallery that is astounding. It has the largest collection of Religious Art in the world, second ONLY to the Vatican. Even tho BJU is a fundamental Bible beleving University, 85% of the artwork is Catholic, and some of it over 800 years old. I've been there, and I recommend if you're ever in the area... stop in.

However, in the artwork the depictions of heretical Catholic doctrine is all over. BJU has little signs underneath describing the Catholic doctrine in the painting, and scripture that shows that whats being depicted is unscriptural.

It's really a neat place, and I say all that to say I am not against artwork... but I do understand why those people 500 years ago destroyed some of it. They saw it as blasphemey. I agree with them on that point.

Here's the link to BJU Museum:

http://www.bjumg.org/

But lets not forget the bloody past of the RCC. Maybe Luther has something to apologize for, but I dont. I wasnt there. I havent treated any Catholics in a bad way. I dont apologize for other people's behavior. Thats like asking me to apologize to African Americans for slavery because I am a southerner. While it was an evil sin, I didnt have anything to do with it.

By the way, lets not forget who it was who overturned the tables of the money changers and chased them out of the temple. People tend to picture Jesus in their minds as being gentle and soft and fuzzy... and while He did manifest those qualities at times... He was also a firey and controversial preacher... and yes, He even got angry. Especially when it came to people perverting the Word of God and oppressing those who merely want to know God. Kinda like the RCC has done for centuries.

Krispy

Br Krispy:

According to the promise given to Abraham, all generations would receive the promise for God to be their God. (see Genesis 17) Before the Reformation, there was always a remnant. Scripture always demonstrates that a remnant exist. Even in the time where Israel had rebelled against God during the time of Elijah, what does Scripture say?


Romans 11:
2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.


So even with all the things that were wrong with the Catholic church back before the Reformation, I believe that God reserved for Himself a remnant according to grace and not works.

Biblical Salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. Jesus came and changed Paul's mind about salvation. I believe He can still do it today.

I do not disagree with your positions Krispy, neither do I seek to limit the arm of God.

In Christ
Jeff

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Jeff Marshalek

it seems to me that the practices in protestant churches are very similar to the ones in Catholic churches, the priest is now called pastor, the litergy is essentially the same, while there may be no or perhaps a few carvings, there're a lot of stained glass art and a lot of other things that are the same in protestantism as in catholicism. now there is blood also on the hands of protestants or if not at least they didn't do enough if anything to stop the violence against my ancerstors during the rape of Africa or during the slave trade days.when the british came through and took over the majority of the continent they came with mainly anglican missionaries. the one thing that is different though is the gospel of salvation but even so being an ex catholic myself, that's where i first heard of Christ and believed in Him. i wasn't familiar with the doctrines and all but i did come to know Christ and Him crucified for my sins.

i believe we are all brethren in Christ and we all have things lacking and things which need to be done away with. our Catholic brethren need for us to expose the false doctrines they adhere to that as many as would be saved would indeed be saved and we need to learn their reverence for God. the foot can't say "i don't need the leg"

also as it pertains to people being saved who remain in the catholic church, the Lord reminded me of my own experience after He began dealing with me. He showed me that the church i was going to had very very few Spirit-filled people. in my pride i told the Lord i saw no need for me to be there coz i needed to be among other Spirit-filled ones and draw from them. Then the Lord said to me "if they are not filled with the Spirit, how will they know what it is to be filled with the Spirit of there is noone to show them?" so i had to repent of that pride. it's easy to think that people may stay in their situation or denomination out of comfort but i think most actually want to leave but are called of God to stay there as an example of what God requires. that way on that last day those who will have refused to do right by God won't have any excuse even though people may or man not be saved from that denomination.

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Farai Bamu

Rookie wrote:

[i]So even with all the things that were wrong with the Catholic church back before the Reformation, I believe that God reserved for Himself a remnant according to grace and not works.

Biblical Salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. Jesus came and changed Paul's mind about salvation. I believe He can still do it today.

I do not disagree with your positions Krispy, neither do I seek to limit the arm of God.[/i]

Absolutely! I couldnt agree more. In fact, I do not consider myself to even be a Protestant. All down thru church history before the Reformation there were pockets of Bible believing Christians who refused to have anything to do with the Catholic Church. The remnant was outside of the Church. Thats where I drawn my Christian heritage. People can call themselves Protestant if they wish, it's really a benign title at this point anyway... but I am not one.

God's remnant previous to the Reformation was met with torture, rape and murder at the hands of the RCC. All one needs to do is read Foxe's Book Of Martyrs if you want to know about how Rome treated those who stood up for the Word of God.

Here is a poem written about such martyrs who were murdered by the RCC in the 1200's by someone who lived then...

[i]Avenge O Lord thy slaughter'd Saints
whose bones Lie scatter'd on the Alpine mountains cold,
Ev'n them who kept thy truth so pure of old
When all our Fathers worship't Stocks and Stones,
Forget not: in thy book record their groanes
Who were thy Sheep and in their antient Fold
Slayn by the bloody Piemontese that [b]roll'd
Mother with Infant down the Rocks[/b]. Their moans
The Vales redoubl'd to the Hills, and they
To Heav'n. [b]Their martyr'd blood and ashes[/b] sow
O're all th' Italian fields where still doth sway
The triple Tyrant [the pope]: that from these may grow
A hunder'd-fold, who having learnt thy way
Early may fly the Babylonian wo.[/i]

The blood of the martyrs is on the hands of Rome.

[b]Rev 17:6a[/b] And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus...

Krispy