I was 26 years old when I was first inducted as a 'pastor' in a UK church. I remember well an older man putting his arm around my shoulder and saying 'the pastor's role is really very simple; lead, feed and bleed.'
In many ways the concentration is on the 'shepherd disposition' rather than on great gifts
_________________Robert Wurtz II
If the body is ministering one to another as we find in Acts and I Corinthians; what would be left to 'feed' them?
_________________Ron Bailey
I would just like to say that I have been so blessed thus far, and cannot wait to hear and chew on more. Blessings to you all!
_________________patrick heaviside
Yes, it has been a blessing.
OK, here's another hand-granade.;-)The only reference to the word 'pastor' which we have in our KJV's is He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, [u]pastors[/u] and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.(Eph. 4:10-16, KJVS)This passage gives us the source, the nature and the purpose of a New Testament pastor. The NKJV makes it clear that the sense is not a specific and limited number of such people ie some pastors, but he gave 'men' and some of those men were given to be 'pastors etc'.Let me say a little about the letter to the Ephesians. It may [i]not[/i] be a specific letter to Ephesus but more in the nature of a circular. Very old manuscripts exist where instead of the word for 'Ephesus' there is a space as thought it were waiting to be 'addressed'. This may be a very early example of 'word-processing'. There are other features which make this more likely. Paul spent a considerable time in Ephesus and had many freinds there, but there are no personal greetings in the manner of the letters to Rome, Philippians, Colossians etc. But there is something which I think is much more in important and that is the way that Paul uses the word 'church'. Here are the references:Eph. 1:22 (KJVS) And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Eph. 3:10 (KJVS) To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Eph. 3:21 (KJVS) Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. Eph. 5:23 (KJVS) For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Eph. 5:24 (KJVS) Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Eph. 5:25 (KJVS) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; Eph. 5:27 (KJVS) That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph. 5:29 (KJVS) For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: Eph. 5:32 (KJVS) This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. I have quoted them in full so that you can check what I am going to say... [b]I don't think the 'local church' is in view in Ephesians; it is the universal church which is the continuing topic.[/b] Have a look at the list before you read more.Why is this significant? Well, if Paul has 'the church' in mind rather than 'a church' his teaching on the topic of 'apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers' is most likely to have to do with the universal church rather than a local church. This is why I wanted to examine the scriptures before trying to work out how well current 'pastors' are doing their jobs. If this next sentence is a new idea to you it may be shocking. [b]There is no reference, in the New Testament, to a local church with its own 'pastor'[/b] in fact, the scriptural narrative that we have in the Acts and through the Epistles would suggest that 'apostles, prophets, and evangelists' were all itinerant rather than residential functions. The point I want to make is that, used in the New Testament sense, 'pastors and teachers' are gifts to the whole church not to a local gathering and that, more that likely, they were itinerant too. If that is not a new idea you will take it in your stride. If it is a new idea, take a while to digest it with its implications.While you're digesting that how about this? In some circles this little list from Ephesians is referred to as 'the fivefold ministry gifts'. But are there five in this list or four? Just a reading of the KJV might indicate what we are looking at And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;(Eph. 4:11, KJVS)Notice that in the KJV there are only 4 uses of 'some' rather than 5. The Greek bears this out. I'm sorry about this bit of Greek but I need it to make my point.Eph. 4:11 kai autos edOke tous [u]men[/u] apostolous, tous [u]de[/u] prophEtas, tous [u]de[/u] euaggelistas, tous [u]de[/u] poimenas kai didaskalousThere are special 'conjunctions' used here which have a special sense. The Greek word 'men' in the above quotation warns you that something additional is on the way. It is the equivalent of the way we might say 'on the one hand...' This phrase would alert you to the fact that there was something more coming. The Greek word 'de' is the equivalent of saying 'on the other hand...' That gives us this kind of paraphrase "also, on the one hand, he gave some (as) apostles and, on the other hand, some (as) prophets and, on the other hand some (as) evangelists and on the other hand some (as) pastors and teachers"/We seem to be short of one 'on the other hand..." Surprize, the fivefold ministry gifts of Ephesians 4 are really the fourfold ministry gifts; the phrase 'pastors and teachers' is describing one group not two. At the very least this strongly associates 'pastoring and teaching'So what conclusions do I draw from this? I think the Biblical evidence shows that the 'function' of 'pastor/teacher' was not part of the hierarchy/organisation of the local church but was an itinerant function of the same kind as that exercised by 'apostles, prophets and evangelists'. The 'governing functions' in the local church are not in view in this Ephesians passage. If we want to learn more about the 'governing functions' we shall have to look at a different set of words...
BOOM (grenade goes off)I have wondered about these things for awhile, but how dp we implement this into "a church" as it seems it would be near impossible to do it in "the church"? :-o
So what conclusions do I draw from this? I think the Biblical evidence shows that the 'function' of 'pastor/teacher' was not part of the hierarchy/organisation of the local church but was an itinerant function of the same kind as that exercised by 'apostles, prophets and evangelist
The 'governing functions' in the local church are not in view in this Ephesians passage. If we want to learn more about the 'governing functions' we shall have to look at a different set of words...
Brother philologos,Perhaps you are headed in this direction already, but could you explain the difference then between a bishop, an overseer, and a pastor. Simply is there one(a difference) or or they one in the same? Since a bishop should be "apt to teach", and Paul also instructed Timothy to teach and do the work of an evangelist etc.
roaringlamb's
could you explain the difference then between a bishop, an overseer, and a pastor.
Wonderful thoughts, shall we procede? :-)
