swsojourner

Boy, you are really getting some mileage out this one...

Maybe you could just shorten it to "K"... :-D

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Mike Balog

Kristen's quote
namely that God 'unconditionally elected' the others to 'damnation'; this is likewise 'unconditional'. that would be blasphemy

my original comment
The 'double predestination' held by some Calvinists is the logical counterpart to this, namely that God 'unconditionally elected' the others to 'damnation'; this is likewise 'unconditional' This fate was determined before the worlds were made.

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Ron Bailey

swsojourner

Boy, you are really getting some mileage out this one...

Maybe you could just shorten it to "K"...

Just in the cause of consistency, should that be 'you are really getting some kilometers out of this one' if you are going to shorten it to K?

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Ron Bailey

Kristen wrote namely that God 'unconditionally elected' the others to 'damnation'; this is likewise 'unconditional'

that would be blasphemy. A little snippet from Berkof's for clarification:

"This means that while it can be said that God is the author of the regeneration, calling, faith, justification, and sanctification of the elect and thus by direct action on them brings their election to realization, it cannot be said that He is also the responsible author of the fall, the unrighteous condition, and thus effects the realization of their reprobation....He did not predestinate some unto sin as He did others unto holiness. And as the Holy God, He cannot be the author of sin."

another little snippet from Berkof to muddy the waters again. ;-) In fact the first half of the paragraph whose latter half you quoted.

The Belgic Confession speaks not only of election but also of reprobation. (Conf Belg. Art XVI: Canons of Dort, I,15) Augustine taught the doctrine of reprobation as well as that of election... That Calvin wsa deeply conscious of the seriousness of this doctrine, is perfectly evident from the fact that he speaks of it as a "decretum horrible" (dreadful decree). Nevertheless, he did not feel free to deny what he regarded as an important Scriptural truth..

Berkof "Reprobation may be defined as that eternal decree of God whereby He has determined to pass some men by with the operations of His special grace, and to punish them for their sins, to the manifestation of His justice"

Your quotation of the latter half of this paragraph is dealing not with reprobation (double predestination) but with the statement that the teaching of reprobation does not imply that God is the 'author of the fall'.

You say that my implication would be blasphemous. But Berkof teaches that the determination to pass by some men (preterition) is a sovereign act of God, an act of His mere good pleasure, in which the demerits of man do not come into consideration. In other words that reprobation is also 'unconditional'.

In his summary of doctrine Berkof says
. Reprobation. The doctrine of election naturally implies that God did not intend to save all. If He purposed to save some, He naturally also purposed not to save others. This is also in harmony with the teachings of Scripture, Matt. 11:25, 26; Rom. 9:13, 17, 18, 21, 22; 11:7, 8; II Pet. 2:9; Jude 4. Reprobation may be defined as God's eternal purpose to pass some men by with the operation of His special grace, and to punished them for their sin. It really embodies a twofold purpose therefore: (1) to pass some by in the bestowal of saving grace; and (2) to punish them for their sins.

This may indeed be 'blasphemous', but it appears to be what some people believe.

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Ron Bailey

Kristen wrote:oh, there are lots of those kind of Calvinists

W.P. Nicholson, Duncan Campbell, John Piper, Andrew Murray,

I don't think Duncan Campbell would have called himself a Calvinist. The Faith Mission is 'second blessing holiness' and there are not many Calvinist who hold to that view. There is a quote somewhere on this site (can't find it, sorry) which goes something like this...

"that I believe in total depravity' doesn't make me have to agree with all of calvinism. ... I do not believe in any conception of sovereignty that nullifies man's responsibility." -Duncan Campbell"

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Ron Bailey

Hi brothers,

I have read Spurgeon's sermon on Particular Redemption highlighted by brother Ron. Thankyou for the link.

I have not read Spurgeon until today. I have heard that in the times he preached he had found an audience of common people who could understand the ways he expressed his thoughts. I must say that we are only more depraved than the working class of his day. He paints a picture well. I wonder how many of today's preachers preach the justice of God the way he did. I believe the majority tickle the ears of the sheep. Is that a fair assumption, I would like to know from my brothers and sisters?

With that said, I would like to draw attention to the parable of the sower of the seed. Now those who preach doctrine similar to the teachings of Calvin say that one group limits the atonement in one way and the other group limits it in another way. This thought was expressed by Spurgeon at the end of his sermon. I say that the parable of the sower brings to light the work of God in the life of the believer. Without running through the parable, I see that there are given to us three elements which if allowed to ferment within the believers life will cause that believer to fall short of the new covenant promise. The first, satan comes and steals the meaning of the words sown in the believer, the second, trials and persecution dries up the life, and third, the cares or affections for this world prevents the believer from the new covenant life. Only the believer who takes on the death of Jesus Christ will be ready to live the resurrected life. The fourth group has had their hearts made fertile for the work that God had purposed for them. This I believe are those who are of the elect, chosen for good works. These are the believers that Titus urges on. "who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His OWN SPECIAL PEOPLE, ZEALOUS FOR GOOD WORKS."

As a shepherd, election must be preached through faith. Faith comes by hearing the spoken word of God. Those who say, Yes Lord, will have died to the god of self. The grace of God will continually lead them to repentance that makes the heart fertile. They will see that the only life worth living is one that learns of God's will for them. This is where the power of the gospel is. The gospel of Jesus Christ reveals the will of God to us.

In Christ,
Jeff

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Jeff Marshalek

Ron's reply to:

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Mike Balog

Hi Jeff!

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Mike Balog

We don't use metric over here unless it's forced upon us.

Nor over here for travelled distances.. but we hear it is coming. :-x

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Ron Bailey

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Karsten Nordmo