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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Born Again By What Means

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Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
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 Re:

Romans 10:5-11 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

wE DON'T NEED THE LAW OR WORD WRITTEN IN OUR HEARTS FOR THE WORD HIMSELF IS ALREADY IN US WHO BELIEVE. WITH OUR HEART WE BELIEVE UNTO SALVATION AND WHO IS OUR HEART, BECAUSE OF HIS FAITH THAT IS IN US? THEN WITH THE HEART MAN BELIEVES UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS AND CONFESSION IS MADE UNTO SALVATION. HE HAS BECOME OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS NOT THE LAW OR WORD WRITTEN IN OUR HEARTS, WHICH IS MENT FOR ISRAEL AND HIM RULING THEM FROM THE THRONE OF DAVID IN THE NEW JERUSALEM WITH THE BORN AGAIN AT HIS SIDE.

1 Corinthians 1:23-24 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

THIS IS THE WORD WRITTEN I OUR HEARTS.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


IN CHRIST: PHILLIP


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Phillip

 2005/11/13 1:52Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother GraftedBranch:

My pursuit in this thread is to go beyond the definition of what born again means to the believer. My pursuit is to discuss according to Scritpure the "means by which one is born again."

As a side note, your nickname states that you are grafted in. There are other branches fed by the same God whom you were grafted in amongst. These branches, these generations, preceded the church age.

Just a thought.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/13 10:28Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip

By what means have you come to know Christ?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/13 10:31Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
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 Re:

I have come to know Christ by the Holy Spirit convicting revelation that I need a Savior. Then by the revelation that I am born again of Spirit and now have The Risen Savior birthed in me. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. This Christ is the living breathing New Creation Person who is now my life. 2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

This revelation is given by the Holy Spirit Who has come to reveal this Christ in me the Hope of Glory. Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

In Christ is the only thing that we need to know. This new Person Jesus Christ is our salvation. 1Cr 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. Christ in me, revealed by the Spirit, and the Holy Spirit teaching me Who this Christ is, knowing that we are one even as the Father is One with Christ. Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: John 17:21-22 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. My salvation is all of God and none of me and the more of Christ I become, the less I become, until one day It will be all of Christ in me as God intended before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/11/13 12:07Profile
Graftedbranc
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Posts: 619


 Re: grafted branches

Quote:
As a side note, your nickname states that you are grafted in. There are other branches fed by the same God whom you were grafted in amongst. These branches, these generations, preceded the church age.



John 14:17 Even the Spirit of Reality, whom the world cannot recieve, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him because He abides with you and shall be in you.

John 7:39 But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to recieve; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Col. 1:18a And He is the Head of the Body, the Church; He is the Beginning, the Firstborn from the dead...

1 cor. 6:17 He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit...
__________________________________________________________________

I guess my name takes people to Romans 9. Perhaps I should change it to "Abiding Branch"

My name is in reference to John 15 where the Lord establishes the organic relationship of the belivers to HImself in Life. That is He is the Vine and we are the Branches. This relationship is not one of covenent nor of legal standing (though these are true) but in this passage it refers to our relationship in Life.

It's purpose is "fruit bearing" and shows that by abiding in Christ, the Sap which is the Spirit flows from the Vine through the branches and causes the branch to bear fruit for "Apart from Me you can do nothing."

In the End in the New Jeruslem, which is the consumated "Wife of the Lamb" according to Rev. 21:2,9 are both the Old Testament Saints (the 12 Tribes 21:12) and the Church (21:14)as One Wife, One Bride, and one City of God.

But the Church is unique today in being in direct union with the crucified and risen Christ. 1 cor 6:17 says, "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit". The Church is the "Body of Christ". That is He is the Head and she has His very Life and is His expression on the earth.

This reality was not known prior, even in the Gospels prior to His crucifixion and resurrection because as John 7 says, "the Spirit was not yet because Jesus was not yet glorifed". That is the Spirit as the Spirit of the crucified and glorified Christ.

Not until the eve of HIs resurrection did the Lord Jesus appear to His diciples and breathe into them saying "recieve the Holy Spirit'(JOhn 20:22).

IN the days of HIs flesh He was with the Diciples but not within them (John 14:17). Now, "though we have known Christ after the Flesh, we know HIm thus no longer."

Today we know Christ because though He was with us, now He is within us as the Life Giving Spirit (1 Cor 15:45).

This the OT saints did not know. The Spirit of God came upon them and empowered them and inspired them but He did not indwell them as thier Life. They were not in organic union in their spirit with Christ. This is unique to the Church in the Church age as the Body of Christ.

In the Old Testament the Presence and dwelling place of God was first the Tabernackle then the Temple. The Holy of Holies was God's dwelling place and the Temple was God's house.

However in the New Testament, the Church is the house of God, and our bodies are the temple of God and our regenerated spirit is the dwelling place of God.

Ephesians 2:21,22 - In whom all the building, being fitted together is growing into a holy Temple in the Lord; In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit.

Grafted (Abiding) Branch

 2005/11/13 13:09Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
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 Re: The Law

Quote:
7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul;



Quote:
Romans 7:4 - So then, my brotherrs, you have also been made dead to the law through the body of Christ so that you might be joined to Another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit to God.



The law spoken of here is the Law of the Old Covenant. But what does it convert the soul from and to? The law can change our behaviour but it cannot give us life.

But for the New Testament believer the Law works in another way.

The Law is a picture and revelation of the Charecter of God. It tells us what God is like and what His standard of rightousness is. However as we know from Galatians, Romans and the rest of the New Testament (and our experience confirms), the Law has no power to give life but can only condemn us because in our natural being we have no capacity to obey it or fullfill it. We cannot act Like or live up to the standard of God's Law because we simply are not God.

Under the New Covenant the Law which is outward and written in stone has been fulfilled by Christ because as the manifestation of God in the flesh, He manifested the Character and attrubutes of God in His human virtues.

IN Christ's death He not only paid the penalty for our breaking the Law on our behalf, He died to its juristiction (Romans 7). And as those who have been joined to Him by baptism into His death (Romans 6) We are also in Christ dead to the Law's juristiction.

Today the Law for us tells us the Nature and Charecter of God who is in Christ who is now within us. Rather than seeking to apply the Law to ourselves and endevoring to keep it, rather we pray, "Oh Lord Jesus, thank you that you are the embodiment of the Living God. Thank you that you have died to redeem me from the curse of the Law. Thank you that I have died in you to the Law and it has no more claim on me."

And we pray, "Thank you that this Law is a revelation of your Nature and your attributes. Thank you that you live within me. Lord Jesus, manifest your rightousness in me. Live your Life in me. Thank you that you are my indwelling Life and you are rightous and holy and perfect."

When we come to the commandments, expecially in the New Testament, we know that they are the revelation of Christ. This is how Christ is. And they tell us what Christ living in us looks like. And when we come to a commandment instead of applying it to ourselves, we apply it to Christ who is within us and we Pray, Lord Jesus, live this out in me."

We might also confess saying, Lord Jesus, you know I have no capacity in myself to live this way. But thank you Lord that You do. Lord Jesus, gain me, Live in me. Make this a reality in my experience. The Lord never fails to respond to such prayers and we find the reality in our experience often immediatly.

IN this way we enjoy as Romans 8 says, "The rightous requirement of the Law is fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit"

As Handley Moule in His hymn says, "Thus shall I find a wakeful power, within me felt yet Not of me...

And the result of such living is not having our self built up in self rightousness but rather we become broken vessels of the rich treasure of the Living Christ within us. When people touch us they do not touch our self rightouse piety. Rather they touch the Living God Himself and we are just broken vessels who contain this rich and Eternal treasure.

Galatians 2:19,20 For I through law died to law that I might live to God. I am crucified with Christ: and it is no longer I who live but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the fatih of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Quote:
Footnote RcV. The law requires us as sinners, to die, and according to that requirement Christ died for us and with us. Hence, through law we have died in Christ and with Christ



Graftedbranch

 2005/11/13 14:21Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
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 Re:

Graftedbranch, where did you get these truths? Why is so hard to get Christians to understand this Christ that is in them, that they may see their death on the cross with Jesus, that they are as dead to sin as He is. That they may see their new life in Christ is His life lived through them and unless they give their mind to Christ directed by the Holy Spirit teacher, that the Christ in them is mindless. We have the mind of Christ but won't give it to Him so He can come forth as us, instead of me working incessantly to be like Him and never working His works. We must learn from the Holy Spirit how to let this power of Christ work in us and through us by His Mind that has been given us.

1Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cr 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Phl 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I (Paul) may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in One Spirit, with One Mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

He is revealed in us now by the Holy Spirit. Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in flesh is of God:

He came in the flesh as the Jesus of Nazareth, He is come in flesh of the believer, He will come in flesh and our flesh will be like Him. This is His coming, there is no second coming, that will be just another dispensational shift in His already coming and coming in us now and coming in the millennium all of which will constitute His coming. There is no 2nd coming in the new testament.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/11/14 3:19Profile









 Re: Born Again By What Means


Hi Phillip,

I'm still keen to fine-tune your thinking into line with [i]all[/i] the scriptures which relate to God's word being [i]written[/i] in our hearts and minds.

Quote:
We must learn from the Holy Spirit how to let this power of Christ work in us and through us by His Mind that has been given us.

2 Corinthians 3
3 [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, [b]written[/b] not with ink, but [b]with the Spirit of the living God[/b]; not in tables of stone, but [b]in fleshy tables of the heart[/b].

4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6 who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


This is how we get the mind of Christ, as well as through obeying the Spirit to walk in Him and not in the flesh.

 2005/11/14 10:22
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Graftedbranch wrote:

Quote:
The law spoken of here is the Law of the Old Covenant. But what does it convert the soul from and to? The law can change our behaviour but it cannot give us life.

But for the New Testament believer the Law works in another way.




The purpose of the law never changes. The law was and is still today given to condemn all according to the flesh.

1 Timothy 1:

1Tim. 1:8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.


Also

Neh. 10:28 Now the rest of the people—the priests, the Levites, the gatekeepers, the singers, the Nethinim, and all those who had separated themselves from the peoples of the lands to the Law of God, their wives, their sons, and their daughters, everyone who had knowledge and understanding— 29 these joined with their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse and an oath to walk in God’s Law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and His ordinances and His statutes:


Scripture says that they entered into the curse. (29 "these joined with their brethren, their nobles, and [b]entered into a curse...[/b]"

The law of Moses is always a curse to those who attempt to walk by their carnal minds. There is another law at work which frees all from the curse.

Rom. 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.


If one is elected by grace does the nature of God's favour differ in those who are His?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/14 10:48Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
In Christ is the only thing that we need to know.



Amen.

Job 19:

25 For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;
26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,
27 Whom I shall see for myself,
And my eyes shall behold, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

Job 33:

26 He shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,
He shall see His face with joy,
For He restores to man His righteousness.
27 Then he looks at men and says,
“I have sinned, and perverted what was right,
And it did not profit me.’
28 He will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit,
And his life shall see the light.

Job speaks of the same thing as you. All we have to know is Christ. Yet by what means are we introduced to Christ?
You have used many Scriptures to support your thoughts; why?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/14 11:00Profile





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