| Poster | Thread | ccchhhrrriiisss
Member
Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779
| | Re: | | Hi AbideinHim,
Quote:
Many People are having adverse effects from the boosters and vaccines, but why isn’t the CDC and News media reporting this? Probably for the same reason that they are not talking about the studies on natural immunity being more effective than vaccines.
You raise a very good point. Like the initial article, the various studies that I've reviewed all seem to confirm the hypothesis that "natural immunity" is better than "immunity by vaccine."
However, achieving "natural immunity" requires that you contract and successfully get through COVID-19. For most of those of us who are healthy and have no health issues (known or unknown), then achieving natural immunity does not seem quite so terrible.
I would still point out that there are rare instances (medical outliers as they are) where seemingly healthy individuals without other known medical issues actually suffer long-term issues or even death from COVID-19. In addition, people who contract COVID-19 are also contagious -- even if they had achieved "natural immunity" (or vaccine immunity) and contracted COVID again through a breakthrough case or variant.
However, I believe that there is another way to look at this. It doesn't have to be EITHER/OR. It can be BOTH.
It is possible to be vaccinated and still contract COVID-19. Data from studies point out that such individuals tend to have less-severe symptoms. If they contract COVID-19 through a breakthrough case, then they benefit as having both vaccine immunity and the much-better natural immunity.
Why is "both" worth considering?
It is certainly worth considering for people with many preexisting health issues or those with weakened immune systems (like the elderly).
Nine months ago, Brother Keith Daniel passed away from the South African variant of COVID-19.
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=63857&forum=44
Like many, I followed that thread. I was heartbroken over the course of that month that Brother Keith lay in the hospital and then departed this life.
The vaccines are not just a preventive measure (for which data shows are effective in the vast majority of cases). However, the data also shows that the vaccines also tend to prevent severity in those who are vaccinated yet still contract COVID-19.
If it can help such individuals, then I think that vaccinations are good even if natural immunity is better. In the end, those individuals will have both.
*EDIT - Brother, you posted a link in the second page to an article by Ben Shapiro (called "The Big Government COVID-19 Lie"). The link (apparently from Facebook) is very large and can be shortened to the following:
https://www.dailywire.com/news/the-big-government-covid-19-lie
If possible, can you edit that post and shorten the link. It would help with the readability of the post (as someone mentioned the problem in one of their posts).
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Christopher
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|  2022/1/4 22:43 | Profile | JFW
Member
Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 2009
Dothan, Alabama
| | Re: Chris | | No offense taken😇 and in the spirit of truth (honesty) I’m gonna keep it real with you and only because if the situation were reversed I’d hope you’d do the same with me 🙏🏻
In truth this thread had nothing at all to do with the topic you injected which effectively detailing the OP’s opportunity to share and interact 🤔
Then after you were met with opposition, you began a series of condescending albeit defensive positions where you “take over” the thread, so since you kinda just walked up and butted into a conversation talking about a different thing, I figured you’d been carrying that around for a while and needed to deal with it... else why would you do that 🤷🏽♂️
Again in the spirit of truth, I appreciate your response but it totally misses the point ... You’re asking me to deny what is clearly visible to me,... and millions of others- this (for us) is not a matter of opinion, it’s our reality.
If there something you’ve been carrying around, please take it to the cross dear brother and simply ask Jesus what He wants to do with the property He purchased there... you don’t need the fallen worlds “experts” to guide your decisions, Jesus is sufficient and IF you give Him the attention and the freedom to do so, He will change your perspective 💯
Again there is no accusing you or judging you, I’m simply confessing what is clearly visible no offense taken nor intended, rather a sincere and earnest plea, whatever this (that in spite of you struggling with, required you to do it) is... take it to the cross ✝️ come there and die to your life, your wife, to your intelligence, to your education, to your wealth, to your world, to all that you hold dear... just like Paul did consider it all dung and be born again into His kingdom. Then you will see by the light of His presence and the fallen worlds “experts” will be exposed as liars and thrives. There is no doubt you are a good and faithful man, but I am testifying to you in truth there is far more than you are currently aware and just like with those whom promote mental illness as normative, I will not pretend.
So to be absolutely crystal clear- I am testifying to you that if the situation were reversed I would want you to, by all possible means, help me🙏🏻
So with your permission I’d like to pray that Lord Jesus would show you by this same light ?
I 💯 believe He hears and answers my prayers and wants you to see the spiritual reality we are positioned in... it’s important Chris, that as many are willing to put on the armor do so. We are at war and not with each other but with an enemy that corrupts at will where good men do nothing because they’re being distracted with facts instead of acts of faith. This is not an accusation this is our present reality and you’re ultimately asking me to pretend that you’re armored up and I’m not gonna do that for both you and the Lords namesake. Everyone who has been born again has been given a suit of armor and if in this present spiritual war a brother or sister doesn’t have it on I’m inclined to find out why not, because either they can’t see that it’s needed or they don’t have it. Either way I 💯 want to get them armored up and in the fight because the ministry of the Holy Spirit can’t properly function in and thru us without it 😇
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Fletcher
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| | 2022/1/5 0:37 | Profile | ccchhhrrriiisss
Member
Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779
| | Re: | | Hi JFW,
Quote:
No offense taken😇 and in the spirit of truth (honesty) I’m gonna keep it real with you and only because if the situation were reversed I’d hope you’d do the same with me 🙏🏻
In truth this thread had nothing at all to do with the topic you injected which effectively detailing the OP’s opportunity to share and interact 🤔
Likewise, no offense is taken.
Obviously, I want you (and everyone) to "keep it real." However, an underlying point that I've been trying to make is that we don't mistake an opinion for truth (or an absolute primer for what is "real").
As such, I should be clear that I find this statement to be quite an interesting "interpretation" of this discussion.
To be VERY CLEAR: I didn't digress when I joined the discussion. Rather, I responded to someone's post. In fact, feel free to go through ALL of the posts in this discussion in order. My first response in this discussion was directed to AbideinHim.
AbideinHim asked, "Why is the government not doing a study on natural immunity?"
My response was to point to a search query via PubMed that listed 2,429 results that included medical studies on "natural immunity" via COVID-19. I stated, "Many of these research studies are funded in-whole or in-part by the U.S. government."
If you found this "condescending," then please believe me when this was NOT AT ALL my intent. In fact, I went back through my posts and cannot find any condescension in my posts.
I did take issue with certain things that were (or seemingly were) directed at me. I pointed out those things -- which I believe to be outside of propriety when it comes to conversation or an almost flippant manner by which people judge one another -- to the point of questioning someone's salvation over something as meaningless as a position COVID-19 related medical opinions.
If you assumed that I was trying to "take over the thread," please understand that I was responding to SEVERAL people who had replied to me. I responded to AbideinHim. Staff then responded to me (and vice versa). After this, you responded to me. That is a discussion -- albeit with multiple participants. There was no attempt to "take over" anything.
In fact, I think that this interpretation of the discussion -- including an insinuation of a desire for control -- distorts what we were writing and, in fact, digresses from the subject. When you use rhetoric that insinuates that someone "butted in" to this thread, you might reconsider what it means to be "condescending."
In fact, we were engaged in a discussion when YOU joined and typed an initial response directed at me. You raised some serious insinuations at me over my words.
Brother, believe me, I could have easily come across as harsh with a response to your accusations, insinuations and assumptions. I prayed before I typed because I prefer being gentle with brothers -- especially if your very bad assumptions were merely a misunderstanding.
I suppose that I don't need to quote that post (unless you would like me to). Instead, you can go back and read your own words in your first post in this discussion (4:52 on Jan. 3, 2022). It was directed at me and (at least to me) it seemed to lack any grace or humility -- something that I myself wrestle with when I write.
Obviously (as has been the cases with MANY discussions over the years at SermonIndex), there will be "opposition" to what we say to one another. That is always expected. In fact, I appreciate the "iron sharpens iron" conversations among the brethren -- as long as they don't meander to the point where the fruit of our lips (or, in the case of online discussions, words that are typed) turn sour, bitter or even poisonous.
Quote:
Again in the spirit of truth, I appreciate your response but it totally misses the point ... You’re asking me to deny what is clearly visible to me,... and millions of others- this (for us) is not a matter of opinion, it’s our reality.
I suppose that this is the crux of where we differ. I have no problem with people being convinced. I certainly believe wholeheartedly that we should stand for TRUTH. But, again, there is a very big difference between "truth" and "opinion."
In this case, we aren't debating the meaning of Scripture. We are debating issues pertaining to a VIRAL PANDEMIC and MEDICINE (in the form of either different vaccinations or treatment). There are obviously scores of opinions about this that opens room for debate. In fact, medical experts are constantly engaging in medical debate over these medical matters too. Politicians engage in political debate over these medical matters.
Quote:
You’re asking me to deny what is clearly visible to me,... and millions of others- this (for us) is not a matter of opinion, it’s our reality.
This is simply false. I am NOT asking you to "deny" anything -- no matter if you (think) that it is "clearly visible" to you and "millions of others." Rather, I am pointing out the need to be accurate and factual when devising a MEDICAL opinion that is being proclaimed in some of the ways that it has been proclaimed.
If someone alleges something, then the burden of proof is upon them to substantiate their claim. This is also true of matters in the Church. Yet, in this case, there are believers who make public allegations, declarations and claims. That is perfectly acceptable -- as long as it is true and can be substantiated.
The world is looking at us. They watch what we say and how we live. They watch what we believe. The New Testament epistles are filled with admonitions to be clean and a good example in regard to "outsiders." This should always be something that we consider in these times.
So, if we make or repeat claims, we should be ready to substantiate what it is that we are claiming. It has to pass the muster of "truth." It cannot be substantiated by any other way. Right now, there is a lot of information being tossed around. We, as believers, must avoid partaking in profane speech, repeating fables or myths and strive for godliness in all such matters.
Quote:
If there something you’ve been carrying around, please take it to the cross dear brother and simply ask Jesus what He wants to do with the property He purchased there... you don’t need the fallen worlds “experts” to guide your decisions, Jesus is sufficient and IF you give Him the attention and the freedom to do so, He will change your perspective 💯
I'm not sure that you mean. I go to the cross of Christ daily. I am ALWAYS thinking of the Lord, praying to him and asking for his guidance. When I am burdened, I strive to cast it upon him because I know he cares for me.
Let's be clear: I never said that the "fallen world's experts" were guiding me. I never insinuated this.
In fact, I do go to the Lord with all of this (and have done so for nearly two years) because I do it always. However, if you're under the impression that I am somehow not doing this (because my "perspective" hasn't conformed to the one that you're so sure of), then you're gravely mistaken.
It seems like it would take a great deal of hubris to assume that people who don't share your perspective on this matter (or any matter not clearly written in the Word of God) hasn't been turning their attention to the Lord.
Quote:
Again there is no accusing you or judging you, I’m simply confessing what is clearly visible no offense taken nor intended, rather a sincere and earnest plea, whatever this (that in spite of you struggling with, required you to do it) is... take it to the cross ✝️ come there and die to your life, your wife, to your intelligence, to your education, to your wealth, to your world, to all that you hold dear... just like Paul did consider it all dung and be born again into His kingdom. Then you will see by the light of His presence and the fallen worlds “experts” will be exposed as liars and thrives. There is no doubt you are a good and faithful man, but I am testifying to you in truth there is far more than you are currently aware and just like with those whom promote mental illness as normative, I will not pretend.
And, yet, you HAVE judged me. You didn't judge with righteous judgment either -- because you have been wrong in it. You also wrote that "if the situation were reversed I would want you to, by all possible means, help me." So, let me help you.
You were wrong in your judgment, assumptions, insinuations and conclusions about me in these posts. We will all be called into account over the things that we have said (or typed). This will be included in that account. It doesn't matter how zealous we are or how much we feel that we are being "real." Truth is still truth. Everything else is not truth. Please consider this when you write accusations, assumptions or judgments.
In regard to this discussion, you've declared that this "fallen world's experts will be exposed as liars and thieves." What about those medical experts who are believers? Are you so bold in your zeal as to dismiss them as "liars and thieves" because their medical expertise might contradict what you think to be enlightened "truth" from our Lord Jesus? What about many believers -- truly belonging to the Father -- who may prayerfully come to a conclusion that differs from your own?
Unfortunately, this is part of the reason that I participated in this discussion in the first place. There are some who claim to not listen to the "fallen world's experts." Yet, some of those same believers would gladly avoid a vaccine or prescribe things like Ivermectin for treatment of COVID-19 partially on the basis of "studies" that were conducted by "the fallen world's experts."
In fact, Ivermectin was created by scientists and marketed by Merck (for use in animals) in the 1980s. I wonder if the Irish-American scientist and Japanese scientist who researched and developed it -- or the pharmaceutical corporation that marketed it -- are part of the "fallen world's experts." Why do some discount medical research and advancement when it is convenient? Why do some point to medical research that seemingly substantiates a belief but ignore thousands of other examples of medical research pertaining to the same pandemic?
Quote:
This is not an accusation this is our present reality and you’re ultimately asking me to pretend that you’re armored up and I’m not gonna do that for both you and the Lords namesake.
Again, I don't ask for you to not have opinions. I am not even asking for you to withhold your opinions. I am simply asking that you realize that there is a difference between your opinions and what is pure, unadulterated truth.
If we have an opinion, we can certainly share it if our words are clean, our consciences clear and it is spoken without pride or bad motives. However, we should be prepared to be clear with proving accusations rather than simply relying upon vague generalizations -- even those that we might be convinced of. But maybe that's the point. Even if we are convinced of something, I would think that we should still be slow to speak it. Perhaps we shouldn't attribute to God something that we simply "figured it out" even if we believe that God showed us it to be true.
On a personal level, I don't care who thinks that I am "armored up" or not. I know the God to whom I serve. I know where I stand with him because I go to him daily. This communion with the Lord leads me to be as patient with others as I would ask God to be with me.
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Christopher
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| | 2022/1/5 4:57 | Profile | JFW
Member
Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 2009
Dothan, Alabama
| | Re: Chris | | Have you asked Him....?
Did you from the beginning come and ask Lord Jesus how He wanted you to respond to all this?
Did you ask Him, Chris?
If so then simply testify before God and man what He told you 🙏🏻
the hour is late dear brother, the time for debating has long past, we are years into this, now it is time for those whom know Him to be of one mind and not be bickering or debating or getting our feelings hurt, now is the season for war 💯 and having done all else to stand as one body with Christ as it’s head 🙏🏻
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Fletcher
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| | 2022/1/5 8:53 | Profile | TMK
Member
Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA
| | Re: | | //now is the season for war 💯//
It had been war for the last 2000 years. There is nothing new under the sun.
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Todd
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| | 2022/1/5 9:50 | Profile | JFW
Member
Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 2009
Dothan, Alabama
| | Re: Todd | | Correct it’s not new, yet there are seasons and like Nicodemus, some simply can’t see it...
Ultimately his hesitation at the words of life landed him squarely on the side of the those whom crucified Christ and ironically they did so because He was spreading “misinformation” 🤔 according to the “experts” 🤷🏽♂️
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Fletcher
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| | 2022/1/5 10:01 | Profile | ccchhhrrriiisss
Member
Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779
| | Re: | | Hi JFW,
Quote:
Have you asked Him....?
Did you from the beginning come and ask Lord Jesus how He wanted you to respond to all this?
While I am not certain what "all this" refers to you, please be comforted by the fact that I ask him -- daily -- about EVERY response. I ask him about my response to things like COVID. I ask him about my response to the brethren. I ask him about my response to people of this world.
Quote:
If so then simply testify before God and man what He told you 🙏🏻
That can be a dangerous "catch all" for conduct or words that are contrary to the Word of God. It puts the blame on the Lord for words -- including the "bickering and debating" of the ability to "hurt" others (with a wrong or false assumption that we are doing the work of God).
It would be a dreadful thing to find ourselves bearing false witness against God by crediting our words and responses to him when they are actually our own. It might be even publicly making God in our own image.
Likewise, I would ask you to simply be careful and "slow to speak" -- particularly if you're going to season your words with assumptions and judgment.
For instance, you may want to be slow to speak words when you publicly question whether the person that you're conversing with is actually a believer or is "sealed for judgment" based primarily upon whether they disagree with your conclusions over a viral pandemic, vaccine or medical treatment.
Yes, we are one body. Christ is our head. However, we need to make sure that the place in which we stand -- particularly in opposition to one another -- is firm.
In this case, it goes beyond the idea of whether or not you think that you're right or someone else is wrong on medical issues. It goes to whether or not you're so assured of your declarations and position that you'd question someone else's faith.
If you truly believe that "the time for debating has long past," then why did you enter this thread to debate? Why did you give a medical conclusion that was not substantiated by medical evidence? Why did you make such insinuations or accusations against those with whom you disagreed?
I appreciate that you know your opinions and conclusions. However, I don't appreciate when brethren speak/write in such a way that all others must accept their opinions and conclusions lest they question the "cognitive ability" of other brethren or entertain a notion that they might be "sealed for judgment."
You may very well question my cognitive ability. It doesn't bother me on a personal level (because I know myself). I seek to see and know myself as God sees me. I caution you because this is a public forum for believers and the world is watching us.
*ALSO: I think that I have been clear that we're not solely discussing Scripture in this. We're discussing medical issues -- a viral pandemic, vaccinations against it and medical treatment for it.
Our Lord Jesus didn't walk this earth and directly proclaim these things. Jesus spoke of spiritual matters and did cite "experts" (in the form of the Law and the prophets). The modern "experts" were not true experts but undeniably were debating against the Creator of all things -- the very Word of God in bodily form. None of us are so positioned.
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Christopher
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| | 2022/1/5 13:09 | Profile | JFW
Member
Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 2009
Dothan, Alabama
| | Re: Chris | | I’m not presently capable of being more clear 🤷🏽♂️
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Fletcher
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| | 2022/1/5 13:51 | Profile | staff
Member
Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227
| | Re: | | Hi JFW,
Its pretty clear this pandemic is not a benign(as in cause) natural happening but the evidence points to a man made virus from a lab which may or may not have been accidently released.
We know this because of the facility in the city of origin,by the whistleblowers,by the political regime in China and the massive coverup including the disappearance or death of the scientists involved.
We know that the main stumbling block to the spread of liberal socialism across the world is the free market democratic USA and that whether its release was accidental or coincidental the virus was used to affect the US 2020 elections where an atheistic left wing influenced government came to power.
We know this goverment and its politically motivated scientists have no love for the nation state or religion and that they see the Christian Church as a great threat from a religous point of view.They are also deeply antisemitic.
We know that the western world is under heavy censorship as we speak with many many conservative voices being silenced when they speak about Covid or the Election 2020 including democratically elected representives and the conservative scientific community.Any debate has been silenced on main stream TV and Newspapers by journalists who are actually left wing activists.
The scientific experts have called it wrong knowingly for the last two years on such things as
Masks -The lenght of time the vaccine would work- On whether the vaccinated could pass the virus on -On the expected death rate in 2021-On the effectiveness of other therapautic treatments.
If the devil is not behind all of this then the devil does not exist and we have nothing to worry about.
In talking to a successful horse owner once he told me that when he is looking to buy a horse he buys the man before he buys the horse.What he meant is that if the man that is selling the horse appears to dodgy in anyway or not honest in anyway then he will be wary of what he is buying.
The horse owners in our case are pro abortion,anti semitic,have an atheistic belief system,anti democratic ,lovers of race baiting ,supporters of the LGBQ lifestyle and are working tirelessly to get rid the nation state because they hate any kind of border which from God's point of view is a block on the spread of sin.
Have a look at their character and their track record and you will see that they are not to be trusted in the smallest of things,
urs staff
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| | 2022/1/5 19:31 | Profile | JFW
Member
Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 2009
Dothan, Alabama
| | Re: staff | | We are, as you can see, in the midst of a spiritual war that has been carefully crafted to corrupt. Nothing that is happening is by chance nor is it coincidence, it is tactical and opportunistic which gives it adaptive capacity. It’s implemented thru lies, it’s that simple and therein lies the effectiveness. To actually address or counter a deception where a lie has been received as truth requires time and attention, this tactic has been successfully implemented (by the enemy) to preoccupy or distract the body of Christ ...
As a result sin abounds while the influence of the church has receded to such an extent that many are corrupted. My hope, my prayer is for mercy and light because so many are off pace and out of position, and it gets me vexed when I see my brothers and sisters being lied to and ultimately some will be led astray and honestly I can see so many ways I’ve failed the grace of God and would not yield my will and as a result of this I missed out on the provision,... rather than strengthening my anointing I weakened it. The scriptures are clear, if I had been faithful the Lord would’ve profited. Yet this proved (for me) to be a turning point, a place of repentance. Once I could see that the thing I opposed was an alkali that He was adding to draw the dross to the surface so He could scrape it off, my resistance ended and tho it was/is very painful, the refinement is absolutely worth it. That process is what I observe to be happening across the world where many people are waking up and in their zeal are hoping to rouse others from their slumber.
Others are (unknowingly) fighting to stay asleep... so there’s work to do💯
One things for sure, these aren’t the days we let our lamps run low... keep the oil replenished and the wick trimmed 🙏🏻
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Fletcher
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| | 2022/1/5 21:36 | Profile |
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