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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Revival is coming Prophetic word from Kenneth Hagin

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dolfan
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Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

Savannah, in all kindness I would say you are tilting at windmills.

No one said truth doesn’t matter. But mercy triumphs judgment —- and that is the truth —- and there’s no cause for anyone here to sit in judgment of anyone about anything in this thread.

I’m happy for you and your vigilance, though.


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Tim

 2021/3/26 22:50Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
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 Re: James 2:13



"...tilting at windmills."

This post reveals how men like KH and BH can go so far. It's like ignoring the cancer in your body, and then wondering why your body is being consumed, is so weak, and is nigh unto death.

This is why the Jim Jones' of this world can convince the masses to drink Kool-Aid and re-locate to Guyana.

As in politics, the whistle-blowers are labeled as conspiracy theorists. So here, men take Scripture like James 2:13 out of context to call the David Wilkerson's and the Paul Washer's of the world unloving.

Paul the apostle, the prophets, John the Baptist, and Jesus Himself were of a different mind concerning false prophets, false teachers, and deceivers.

Read their scathing remarks recorded in Scripture.

But Jeremiah's words are just as fitting in our day as they were in his;


“Something horrible and shocking is going on in the land. The prophets prophesy lies.The priests exercise power by their own authority. And my people love to have it this way. But they will not be able to help you when the time of judgment comes! Jer. 5:31,32

Let those who persecute me be put to shame, but as for me, let me not be put to shame; Let them be dismayed, but let me not be dismayed. Bring on them a day of disaster, And crush them with twofold destruction!
Jer. 17:18

Men today are no longer men. They refuse to throw the Jezebel's from the cliff. So we have it. Men in the church courting Jezebel, and giving her a tour of the church. As in the NT book of The Revelation where Jesus Himself says, "...you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. Even though I have given her time to repent of her immorality, she is unwilling.

Behold, I will cast her onto a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her will suffer great tribulation unless they repent of her deeds. Then I will strike her children dead, and all the churches will know that I am the One who searches minds and hearts, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. Rev. 2:20-23

So tell Jesus, Paul, and the prophets how unloving they are while you're at it. Tell them how they ought to be like you and be more loving and merciful, and not so judgmental.

And Peter may also be added to your list of the unloving, unmerciful, judgmental ones;

Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could acquire God’s gift with money! You have no share or part in this matter because your heart is not right before God! Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that he may perhaps forgive you for the intent of your heart. For I see that you are bitterly envious and in bondage to sin.” Acts 8:20-23

 2021/3/27 5:36Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
David Wilkerson warned of such men as KH -

https://youtu.be/r3nIgImgfY8




Brethren,

Watching this video makes it clear the fruits of these doctrines. Have we tears for such blasphemies against our Lord and the Gospel?


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 2021/3/27 7:24Profile
AbideinHim
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 Re:

10 Ways Where Word Of Faith Movement Went Wrong:
By Joseph Mattera:


As a product of the Word of Faith movement in the early 1980s, I will forever be indebted to the books and teachings of Kenneth Hagin Sr., Smith Wigglesworth, John G. Lake, T.L. Osborn and the like. These were holy men of integrity who turned the world upside down with their faith and teaching.

I learned how to pray for the sick by reading Osborn’s book Healing the Sick, and I learned how to resist the devil by reading Hagin’s The Believer’s Authority. In reading many biographies of Smith Wigglesworth, I have always been challenged by his utter consecration to Christ and to walk in the light of His Word whether in or out of the pulpit. I shudder to think where I would be right now if not for being influenced by these men and this movement.

That being said, as I continued to grow in the Lord and His Word, I saw several flaws in the teaching and in the movement in general. This article is not meant to dampen anyone’s faith but to bring a more balanced picture of the ways of God — especially since many have been discouraged in this movement because they did not understand the whole counsel of God (Acts 20:27) and did not have a theology that included certain things that challenged their faith.

I have found that whenever we preach or emphasize one truth of God’s Word to the exclusion of the others, it becomes a mixture and produces both good and bad fruit. For example, this has happened with the hypergrace movement, as well as the view of hyperfaith. From an overemphasis on outward holiness, we get legalism. And we come into a form of fatalism when we emphasize God’s sovereignty at the expense of human responsibility.

However, I will go on record saying that I would much rather be with people attempting to walk in faith and victory than be hanging out with depressed saints filled with unbelief and doubt. Also, like most other movements, the Word of Faith movement restored to the body of Christ a biblical truth that was neglected by the church — and in doing so, overemphasized it. But after several years, more balance comes as folks like myself “eat the meat and spit out the bones.” Also, I believe that Brother Hagin never approved of some of the excesses that came out of the faith camp — especially regarding the unbalanced teachings on prosperity that came from some of his more radical followers.

The following are some of the flaws of the Word of Faith movement from my perspective (and I realize these are generalizations that don’t fit exactly every person classified as “Word of Faith”):

1. They preach a “rights centered” gospel rather than a “stewardship centered” gospel.

Perhaps influenced by our Jeffersonian heritage of individual rights in America, the way the gospel is applied to individuals in the Word of Faith movement is based on personal rights in Christ. Although this is partially true, the New Testament balances our rights in Christ with our responsibility that goes along with these rights.

For example, in Deuteronomy 8:18, we learn that God gave believers “power to get wealth, that He may establish His covenant.” This passage clearly teaches us the primary purpose of prosperity is for the Kingdom—not only for our individual comfort and pleasure. Many in the faith movement used to “claim” houses and cars and attempt to use their faith merely for their own individual needs which, in and of itself, goes against our call to seek first His Kingdom (Matthew 6:33) as a prerequisite for our individual needs and wants being fulfilled.

2. Their dispensational belief precludes the role and importance of the Old Covenant in the New Covenant age.

I heard Brother Hagin brag several times in his teaching sessions that he did not read the Old Covenant because we have a new and better covenant now in Christ. The challenge with that teaching is that he did not understand the relevance and role of the moral and civic law of God found from Exodus to Deuteronomy — especially the Ten Commandments that were repeated over and over again either exactly or in principle by the New Testament writers. Without the moral law of God, we have no standard for holiness and will lack the conviction of sin the moral law gives as our standard of holiness and ethics.

Furthermore, Hagin and others like him would only quote the Old Testament when convenient — when it comported to his view of faith. For example, he would quote Exodus 23:25, where God told the Jews He would take sickness from them, but he neglected to also teach that in order to walk in health they had to follow the strict dietary code as found in Leviticus 11. Thus, healing for the Jews included not only claiming a promise of God but also staying away from unclean food. (In my opinion, walking in physical health also involves having a healthy diet and lifestyle—or else we are tempting God by intentionally violating His natural laws and then expecting Him to heal us.)

3. They have a semi-gnostic dualism regarding their view of God.

Word of Faith preachers have a simple view of God: Everything that is good is of God, and everything bad is from the devil. While I totally agree God is a good God, sometimes He has to bring judgment or allow things to take place that in our natural minds may be interpreted as bad. What do Word of Faith preachers do with passages like Isaiah 45:7, in which God says He not only brings prosperity but also disaster? Or 2 Samuel 24:13, where God told King David to choose one of three calamities He would bring upon the land of Israel as punishment for his sin? Or Amos 3:6, which clearly says God sometimes brings disaster to a city? What about the book of Job, where God allows Satan to afflict Job physically with boils as well as bring disaster to other areas of his life?

I remember Brother Hagin teaching that Job doesn’t count in the New Testament because Job 42:10 says God turned the captivity of Job and that Luke 4:18 says Jesus set the captives free. That would all be fine, except for the fact that the book of James carries the life and story of Job into the New Testament for the church age — specifically, James 5:11 offers a lesson for us regarding God’s ways and dealings. (Also, without the book of Job, we have nothing to say to Christians who unexpectedly lose a loved one or experience great personal challenges and loss. Job is comforting to me as a pastor because it shows me that God is sovereign over all things — in both the good and the bad — even when it is hard to explain and understand in the natural. Furthermore, God never gave Job an explanation for why He allowed disaster to strike.)

Finally, what do Word of Faith teachers say about Revelation 2:22-23, where Jesus says that He will cast people on a bed of sickness and even strike people dead? This does not go along with the simple dualism they teach. Now, I will be the first to say that God’s general will, as revealed in the Gospels, is for divine health (see also 3 John 2) and that, in general, He always wants us healthy in spirit, soul, and body (1 Thessalonians 5:23) and that Jesus came for us to have an abundant life (John 10:10). But those in the Word of Faith movement have such a narrow view of the Word of God that they do not have any explanations for mysterious things that happen to us that challenge our faith. It is not always true that something bad happened to a person because they had sin (John 9:1-3) or that they didn’t get healed or calamity came to them because they lacked faith. Of course, the instance where Jesus brought sickness and death in Revelation 2:22-23 had to do with disobedience, which took people out from under the covering of the Lord (Psalm 91:1).

In summary, it is still generally God’s will to bring us health and prosperity in the context of obedience to His Word.

4. Positive confession sometimes leads to dishonesty and superficial Christianity.

I have been around many believers who are afraid to be honest and admit they are struggling with their faith. This brings people into bondage and even a form of superficial religion. Some believers are like robots — when you ask them how they are doing, they routinely say, “I am blessed and highly favored!” However, I know some of these people, and they are merely trying to keep a positive confession even though their world is falling apart.

Now, I do believe in speaking the Word of God to our challenging circumstances and not giving in to negative talk, but that is different from what James 5:16 tells us when he exhorts believers to confess their faults one to another. Positive confession is good and biblical (Proverbs 18:21) as long as it doesn’t stop a person from getting pastoral counsel and being honest with fellow believers when they need prayer.

5. Their view on prosperity is only based on giving.

While it is true that the Bible teaches we reap what we sow and that if we give, it will be given back to us (Luke 6:38), one of the flaws of the Word of Faith movement is that it only teaches people one side of prosperity. I believe the church needs to equip the saints not only to give but also to get, as well as how to manage what they get while investing and saving for the future.

When we only teach the saints how to give, we limit the amount of creativity and blessing some people can experience — because without combining giving with hard work, education, and an understanding of how to manage and create a budget, many folks will continue in cycles of poverty even though they may experience elements of God’s provision based on their giving. God can only bless in proportion to our ability to manage what He gives us!

In poor countries, I have found that when the only solution presented to the people for breaking poverty is “giving to the church,” the only person who becomes prosperous is the preacher. In the Kingdom of God, the church is called to have a more empowering and holistic approach in regard to prosperity and breaking cycles of poverty.

6. They have faith in their faith as a principle rather than it emanating out of the person of Christ.

I have found in many instances where this movement presented faith almost as an impersonal force, like the law of gravity. This led to teachings like “having faith in your faith.” When this is taught, it can disconnect faith from intimacy with the Lord. The more I get to know a person, the more I can trust them. Faith is not a force. It is a result of growing in simple trust based on growing in an experiential knowledge of the Lord. Faith is relational. It is not an impersonal force.

7. Some pastors have modeled their church preaching after these “specialists” in the body.

Brother Hagin, T.L. Osborn, Smith Wigglesworth and the like were not typical pastors called to oversee a flock. Thus, they were able to preach based on their primary assignment, which was faith and healing. The challenge is, many pastors who don’t understand this began to mimic these great men of God and attempted to build congregations only around those three themes: faith, prosperity, and healing. That is OK if you are a traveling teacher or evangelist, but a congregation needs to have a balanced diet of the Word that includes the whole counsel of God (Acts 20:27).

A pastor needs to preach on healing but also holiness; faith but also tests and trials; moving mountains but also marriage; giving financially but also stewardship and hard work. I love preaching on faith and healing, but as a pastor I often had to preach subjects I really did not have a great passion for but knew others needed to hear to fully mature in the Lord.

8. It can put guilt and bondage on believers.

I have heard of many people who walk around in guilt because they are not healed or because they are struggling financially. In some cases, I have even heard of famous faith preachers who checked into a hospital under a different name so word would not get out that they were sick and under a doctor’s care!

We need to have a culture of faith in our churches, but we also have to engender a culture of humility, honesty, and brokenness — admitting that we don’t always walk in victory over sin and sickness as well as making allowances for mystery. The fact is, we don’t always understand why certain things happen to believers. (See again the book of Job.)

9. It can produce independent, narcissistic believers.

When the Word of Faith movement went from a stewardship-centered gospel to a rights-centered gospel, it also attracted many self-focused people — people who used God as an excuse for their lavish lifestyles and who frowned upon those living in simplicity. Unfortunately, this teaching often appealed to the narcissistic tendencies in all of us, and many large ministries were built more upon the American Dream of having a nice house and a nice car than upon taking up our cross and following Jesus. Jesus said in Luke 14:33 that we have to lose everything in order to be His disciple, but many in this movement only focus on what we gain. Truly, you can’t be resurrected until you first go to the cross!

10. It is not connected to the cultural mandate of Genesis 1:28.

Last but not least, the Word of Faith movement did not go far enough. Instead of limiting faith to merely believing for individual healing and health, the Word of God teaches that our faith should also transform whole cities and subdue kingdoms! (See Isaiah 61:4 and Hebrews 11:33.) The gospel is a blueprint to disciple and baptize whole people groups, not just individuals (Matthew 28:19-20). It not only deals with individual sinners but systemic evil. The Word of Faith movement, though, brings faith for individual victory but doesn’t say much about corporate victory. However, regarding the community of believers, faith is also based on the corporate culture and anointing of a congregation. (First Corinthians 11:27-32 and Hebrews 3-4 teach that whole congregations can be negatively affected by a culture of unbelief or disobedience.)

The Word of Faith movement in general separated the gospel from the Kingdom and, in doing so, made it more about individual prosperity than societal transformation. When you separate the gospel from the Kingdom you tend to become more self-focused because the Good News gets disconnected from our responsibility to steward the earth. With the gospel of the Kingdom, we believe in individual, congregational, and societal transformation!

Finally, I believe with all of my heart that there was more good than bad in the Word of Faith movement and that it was God’s intention that biblical faith for the supernatural be restored back to the church. All of us only know in part and see through a glass darkly — even the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 13:9,12). Consequently, it often takes years for the body of Christ to discern how to have balance when old truths are restored. One of the keys to life is balance — and biblical balance cannot come until we attempt to embrace the whole counsel of God!


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Mike

 2021/3/27 7:33Profile
AbideinHim
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 Re:


“However, I will go on record saying that I would much rather be with people attempting to walk in faith and victory than be hanging out with depressed saints filled with unbelief and doubt. Also, like most other movements, the Word of Faith movement restored to the body of Christ a biblical truth that was neglected by the church — and in doing so, overemphasized it. But after several years, more balance comes as folks like myself “eat the meat and spit out the bones.” Also, I believe that Brother Hagin never approved of some of the excesses that came out of the faith camp — especially regarding the unbalanced teachings on prosperity that came from some of his more radical followers.”


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Mike

 2021/3/27 7:38Profile
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 Re:

There are a lot of WOF ministries on this earth, and there are a lot of great pastors that preach the Bible the only true word of God. My response to any Pastor's ministry is, his sheep are just as responsible as the Pastor is, because if they're reading their Bibles, they would know if their Pastor is preaching the true word of God.

I do know that Paul said in 1 Timothy 5:19–20 "Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear".

I personally think this is the right way to expose any false teacher, when we do name a false teacher, it’s best to do it in a setting where you do more than name drop. You explain the error, you give reasons for rejecting it, you communicate complexities, you set a tone of longing for truth and love, you’re not just slinging mud.


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Bill

 2021/3/27 9:39Profile
narrowpath
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 Re:


[Also, I believe that Brother Hagin never approved of some of the excesses that came out of the faith camp — especially regarding the unbalanced teachings on prosperity that came from some of his more radical followers.]

This is simply untrue. Hagin was really into the laughing revival as this vid shows

https://youtu.be/X2V7KbbfRHA


[The challenge is, many pastors who don’t understand this began to mimic these great men of God and attempted to build congregations only around those three themes: faith, prosperity, and healing. That is OK if you are a traveling teacher or evangelist, but a congregation needs to have a balanced diet of the Word that includes the whole counsel of God (Acts 20:27).]

No, that is not ok for anyone.

[10. It is not connected to the cultural mandate of Genesis 1:28.

Last but not least, the Word of Faith movement did not go far enough. Instead of limiting faith to merely believing for individual healing and health, the Word of God teaches that our faith should also transform whole cities and subdue kingdoms! ]

This is kingdom dominion teaching. The only person we are to subdue is ourselves and we are to yield to God and wait for Christs return. Then will we share dominion with Christ.


I went astray after being introducted to KHs teachings, because it norished both my flesh and spirit causing me great turmoil. God lovingly chastized me through years of wilderness and setbacks.

The dilema is, you will always find truth and error mixed. No one would in their right mind would drink pure poison, but rather cool aid with hidden poison. It is by subtilty that error is introduced, before it goes into overt and blatant reversal of truths.

2 Corinthians 11:3-4
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

I hate these teachings, but just condemnation of this movement and their followers alone does not help anyone. God did chastise me when I fell into error, but he did not condemn me. If anyone would have condemned me for falling for this movement at that time, I would have just entrenched myself deeper into it. One of my best friends who loves God, is still into this teaching and it does him damage, and I have not been able to talk him out of it yet.

It was the teaching of David Wilkerson, Art Katz, and Keith Daniel that got me out of it. In the end I dumped thousands of Dollars worth of WoF books into the garbabe bin.

On a personal note to Mike, I know you love God, and I enjoy your posts featuring T.Austin Sparks, Watchman Nee and Andrew Murray, and A.W. Tozer but I think if they were alive they would counter KH and WoF and Kingdom Dominion teaching, too.




 2021/3/27 10:34Profile
AbideinHim
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 Re:

Brother, I believe all of the Word, and by the teaching of Holy Spirit, I have been able to discard the error, and keep what is profitable and needed.


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Mike

 2021/3/27 10:51Profile
AbideinHim
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 Re:

What this whole thing really reminds me of is what happens during many revivals when the Holy Spirit is moving and there are manifestations occurring such as the laughter and drunkenness. Sometimes these manifestations are counterfeited or men get in the flesh. The devil will always tempt men to go to extremes to discredit the work.

About 30 years ago I saw the mixture that was taking place in WOF, and I quit listening to the most well known WOF teachers. This is why I do not post messages by them. One of the most balanced teachers of faith and confession was Derek Prince.


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Mike

 2021/3/27 13:46Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
“However, I will go on record saying that I would much rather be with people attempting to walk in faith and victory than be hanging out with depressed saints filled with unbelief and doubt. Also, like most other movements, the Word of Faith movement restored to the body of Christ a biblical truth that was neglected by the church — and in doing so, overemphasized it. But after several years, more balance comes as folks like myself “eat the meat and spit out the bones.” Also, I believe that Brother Hagin never approved of some of the excesses that came out of the faith camp — especially regarding the unbalanced teachings on prosperity that came from some of his more radical followers.”




Brother,

I appreciate your heart to find balance on this, sermonindex has been a testimony of 19 years to seek the Word and the Spirit to come together. But there has been a line drawn against movements and men that I have felt bring an un-healthy emphasis.

We clearly see the fruit of word of faith doctrines from the 1940's onwards to the place where it is now. 95% + of all churches influenced by these teachings are in gross error. Sadly Hagin helped encourage many of the leading prosperity teachers, (some of the worst).

But brother I agree we must seek the life of the Spirit and not go into cessationism, fault-finding and other places of lifelessness.

Amen, derek prince and some others preserved as lights in the midst of all of this. We can rejoice in these things and point to the more sure word.


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 2021/3/27 15:06Profile





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