Hi Travis, your exactly right and its really not that complicated, unless ego rears its head. Love is the beginning and the middle and the end. There is faith and there is hope and there is love, but love reigns supreme. We exist because of the love of God, not a fake love or a programmed love, but a genuine love, and in order for us to genuinely love in return we must have the ability to reject. Lucifer had that ability, it is fundamental. What is the heart of God?

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.(1Ti 2:3-4)

This is the heart of God.......bro Frank

I wrote this about ten years ago with the title "The difference between men and angels." I had pondered much about the fallen angels and why they were outwith the bounds of redemption. Very shortly after just simply asking the Lord about it, this piece was dropped into my spirit. For your consideration............

Angels were born into the presence of God. They were immediately privileged to dwell in the unadulterated presence of God Almighty. It is obvious that they had the ability to sin, as man did, but there is a direct correlation between proximity to God and depth of sin and rebellion.

Men know in part, and have at best, vague notions of God. Angels knew everything there was to know about God and what it meant to dwell in His presence continually. Obviously to reject that, there is no where else to go. Redemption is to bring someone into a right relationship with God, Angels already had that. This is what they rejected, that is why they are already judged.

Adam and Eve had limited contact with God. God would come in the cool of the day and walk with them. What the born-again Christian looks forward to is something even better than the garden of Eden. When we pass over, we will dwell in the unadulterated presence of God eternally. While we remain here on earth, we dwell in a “Garden like,” existence in the sense that we walk with the Lord and come into His presence, not fully nor continually in the conscious sense, but in a limited way in the manifest presence sense.

So, while Adam and Eve now had the knowledge of good and evil, their experience with God was limited, therefore their rejection of Him was also limited and the possibility of salvation still existed.Imagine a palace, the wealthiest palace ever built. Now imagine children grow up in that palace and other children grow up in the slums of the city in which the palace is situated. Some of the children in the palace will become spoiled brats, while others will appreciate what they have.

Who knows why some choose one way and some choose another. The ones who reject the palace living and do not appreciate it, who grow rebellious and believe that there could be something better, they can never be happy and ultimately will begin to hate their surroundings. The formula is simple and applies to every created being. One can either appreciate what they have and live in thankfulness or they can focus on what they do not have. What was an angelic principal is also a universal principal of all created beings. Imagine thankfulness and praise as a dwelling place, do you dwell there? Imagine ungreatfulness and discontentment as a dwelling place, do you live there? Where do you live?

Now imagine the children of the slums. They are born and raised in the slums. They know what it is like to be hungry, to have little or no material goods. They know what it is like to be trapped in generational circumstances. Four hundred years of slavery in Egypt, two hundred years of slavery in America, several hundred of years of peasantry in Europe are all examples of peoples whose lives did not change from one generation to the next. These are people who knew what to be “hopeless,” truly meant. Now imagine, out of that darkness, the man in charge of the palace, comes into the slums, comes into Egypt, comes into America, comes into Europe, and offers every single dweller the opportunity to come and dwell in the palace. For those who accept the offer, can you imagine how they would differ from the original palace dwellers who had become discontent?

Because they had known what it was like to suffer depravation, hunger and hopelessness, the slum dwellers joy in his knew surroundings would be impossible to measure, Their gratefulness and gratitude would be without end.
Now imagine the palace dwellers who had rejected the palace life because of discontentment, lack of gratitude. They now dwell in the slums, and it is so much more difficult for them to dwell there. In fact, it is impossible to estimate their misery because one would have to have dwelt in the unadulterated presence of God and then experience the exact opposite. (This is the true hell of Calvary )

To compound this, they know that once they rejected palace living and left, it would be impossible to return. So their level of hopelessness is a “pure,” hell if you like.Many of you may know about Calvin and his counterpart Arminius. They held views that diametrically opposed each other. To break it down to its simplest of terms one believed that once saved always saved, and the other believed that it was possible to lose ones salvation. This is a debate that has been going on for centuries and continues to this day. There are good men on either side of this debate and it is without doubt that there will be no conclusion until Jesus comes back. There are too many denominations nowadays, there can be no council held to clear up the matter, so the issue lies with each individual Christian.

So, if you have ever pondered the questions raised by Calvin and his counterpart, and never came to a conclusion, or did but there is room for doubt, how then should one live in order to be certain? Many times Christians will say to non-Christians that even if the Christian is wrong, then the only harm done will have been to have lived a life of honesty and integrity and a life that tried to love his fellow human being. If the non-Christian is wrong, obviously there is the dire consequences of hell.

What if you’re a Calvinist and your wrong? What if you believe that you could lose your salvation and your wrong? The Calvinist would say that the other side would live in fear, with no assurance of salvation, Arminius would say that the other side would live without fear of God and live any way he wanted, neither of these are desirable ways to live. What if we just lived in a state of thankfulness for our salvation? No matter what circumstances came our way, we simply decided to focus on what we have, namely, salvation. We live in the joy of knowing that we once dwelt in the slums and now we dwell in the palace.

Brothers and sisters, never make the same mistake as the original palace dwellers and become discontent with your Christian existence. Even if it does not lead to losing your salvation (and remember the jury is still out) it is an affront to God the Father and to everything that was sacrificed on Calvary. Let us live in a continual state of thankfulness and gratitude that God Himself has redeemed us from the gutters of life. If we live in this manner, in a manner of genuine thankfulness and gratitude and love, then the matter of Calvin and his counterpart Arminius becomes irrelevant..................bro Frank

I believe brother Frank and some others have stated well how God is Love and not the author of evil. Also, that our love to God is what he truly desires of his creation to be willingly.

The thing that I would like to mention is that before Lucifer fell and became the adversary against God and man he was placed very high in rank and beauty as one of the archangels of God. This tells me that the angels were tested first to always obey and love God. Lucifer began to focus on himself and began to lift himself up in pride so God had to bring him down. This changed him into the adversary to work evil against God and the plan that he had for His creation.

Now God created man first with a natural (temporal) body not yet like the angels because he knew man had to overcome Satan (formerly Lucifer) and his temptations. God didn't remove Satan before he made man because he knew man would also have to be tested. He never let man eat of the tree of life in his fallen condition. He had a plan to redeem man from the start so that in the new world everyone will have the nature of the son of God and will be kept eternally by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Yes God created man knowing that he was going to fall but also loving us so much that he paid the price of our redemption so that we would love him forever! God wants his children to love him and do His will. So God went ahead and created Adam a little less than the angels knowing that he would be tempted by the devil (desiring him to overcome the devil) but knowing he would not overcome him but fall into sin. But he also gave birth to the second man (the last Adam) Jesus who did overcome him as a man to make us a new man in Christ by way of his death on the cross and his resurrection.

The desire of God is for man to be an overcomer. We must be overcomers for God desires us to overcome Satan by the blood of the lamb, the word of our testimony and by loving not our lives unto the death. The plan of God is beautiful because before the foundation of the world God so loved the world that he provided a redeemer which is Christ the slain lamb of God for our sins. The redeemed will always love God for the great price that was paid for our salvation.

If God had not had a plan through His Son Jesus then all mankind would have been lost forever and separated from God. We must overcome all the nature of the devil. Thank God we can through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

Blessings to all!

Dear brother Frank! I feel privileged to read what God dropped in your spirit ten years ago! That was absolutely beautiful and a helpful picture drawn with words! Praise the Lord brother! Thank you for sharing that today!

With a heart full of love for you all!

Rbanks, wonderful, I really enjoyed reading your summary, beautiful and profound. I just feel such a heart of gratitude towards our Father in heaven. He has asked us to be overcomers, but not before He himself overcame the horrendous betrayal of Lucifer and the fallen Angels and then of course the complete rejection of His Son by those He also loved. All great leaders lead by example, they never ask their men to do what they themselves would not. And where does the source of that nobility and leadership come from? From God Himself who is not noble, for that is an adjective, but the source of all nobility, nobility itself. I stand amazed at Gods great plan. Thank you bro Caleb, what a wonderful blessing and encourager you are, a very rare gift............bro Frank

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Travis

Frank: I think there is somewhat of a scriptural support for your perspective. Scripture says to be not many teachers, but teachers will be held to a higher standard.

A teacher should be closer to God than those he teaches. I am not talking about an ego driven idea of being "more spiritual". I am talking about leading others into the place that you yourself have already attained. As an elder in my fellowship, it is my responsibility so to speak to seek God more diligently than the rest of the congregation and spend more time with Him than they do. The reason for this is that I must have somewhere to lead them. If one of them surpasses me, PRAISE GOD!!, but I must be able to lead them somewhere substantive and not simply tell them where they ought to go. I think this principle can apply to what you are saying. The angels had a greater revelation and relationship, and therefore were held to a different standard.

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Travis

Angels were born into the presence of God. They were immediately privileged to dwell in the unadulterated presence of God Almighty. It is obvious that they had the ability to sin, as man did, but there is a direct correlation between proximity to God and depth of sin and rebellion.

Men know in part, and have at best, vague notions of God. Angels knew everything there was to know about God and what it meant to dwell in His presence continually. Obviously to reject that, there is no where else to go. Redemption is to bring someone into a right relationship with God, Angels already had that. This is what they rejected, that is why they are already judged.

-quote-

I really liked your writing brother Frank!

I have felt that God planned something so much better for man than he did for the angels. Those fallen angels went against the light and presence of God and therefore doomed themselves. The scriptures state that Hell was created for the devil and his angels.

This leaves me to believe that God in his foreknowledge created man with a natural (temporal) body first with limited knowledge so that he could be redeemed and then receive a glorified body like the angels. This kept man from being separated from God forever! What great Love God has for man!

Hebrews 2:14-18 (KJV)
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Blessings to all!

Rbanks writes ........

"What great Love God has for man!" Oh brother, I say yes and amen to this. What great love is this? Can our minds even begin to comprehend the magnitude of His love. A love that gave birth to all of humanity. This to me is foundational.....

"Joh 1:9  That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."

Every man that comes into the world, has something of the light of the Lord Jesus in him, which to me is his conscience, the very voice of God speaking, accusing or excusing. Imagine that, every man guided by an inner voice which he can embrace or reject or sear. We are a privileged race and certainly one without excuse. So, rather than God tempting men by a created devil (God forbid) He does the exact opposite and points men to the Truth and to Himself. Thank you Father in heaven for loving us this much and for the lengths you have went to and for the pain you have suffered from your creation. Truly we deserved none of it, but love...............bro Frank

//So, rather than God tempting men by a created devil (God forbid) He does the exact opposite and points men to the Truth and to Himself.//

The latter part of your statement is obviously true, but would you say that God has use for satan? If so, what is that use? If not, why is satan still around?

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Todd