Thanks so much. I plan on purchasing the book soon. I see there's a fairly new edition available on amazon. This is very helpful to me.
Quote:"I should note that I am fairly certain that GCM never espoused the ultimate salvation of all men."Yes, I would think he didn't. But this quotation is very helpful nonetheless. Besides, I don't know if I will ever espouse the ultimate salvation of all men. This is the first time I've ever really even focused this much on the topic.
My knowledge of the character of God would tell me that anyone who sins with knowledge is in danger of the second death, which is the lake of fire. Everyman has a conscience. Con-with science-knowledge. Every man has knowledge of right and wrong. Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them. Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. If the man was seeking God he would find the God the Father of Jesus Christ not Allah.
I am done with this thread. I think the topic was covered in the thread that has already been linked to.
It seems clear they are not, and yet they burned with "eternal" fire. Therefore, it seems to me that "eternal" is not how many of us understand it today.
_________________SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
Can we also please keep the conversation in this thread soley to the fact of the idea of "eternal" abiding wrath in hell. This is the subject that is in question, the other side issues need to be discussed in another thread. I do feel there needs to be more thought and discussion on the first issue before others can be given fair thought. There are some great thoughts coming out here and if we keep digging I am sure more will be revealed.
Greg,I don't have time at the moment to respond to you about the Jude verse. But concerning Aionios, did you see G. Campbell Morgan's quote? Perhaps no so straight forward after all. Look at the root of the word, not human interpretations of it. I think this is where we need Greek expertise.
I feel that at this point it is necessary, in order to facilitate this discussion, that we understand the Greek words Aion and Aionios. This has been discussed at some length already in the thread, but it seems that we are not all seeing it.It seems that these words merely speak of ages, and not "eternity" as it is commonly understood. This seems very clear from looking at the root of these words. Are we all in agreement on this point?Now about Jude...Here is another place where I feel we really need some help with the Greek. I think I see how you are reading it Greg, but I don't think that the Greek grammar allows for it. But I could definately be wrong. Here's how I see it...Jude 7"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, [b]in undergoing[/b] the punishment of eternal fire."Or another reading could be "... are exhibited as an example of eternal fire, [b]in undergoing[/b] punishment." Either reading reveals an understanding of "eternity" that seems very different from the way this word is commonly understood today. Let's look at the first reading..."Sodom and Gomorrah...are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." Now are we in agreement that a literal fire came down and burned them up? If this fire that burned up Sodom and Gomorrah was eternal, then how is it that it is not still burning there? If that fire is "never ending, without end, etc." then how can we explain if it is no longer burning there? What this first reading suggests to me is that the "eternal fire" Jude is talking about here is a type, kind, or quality of fire, and it does not speak of duration.My NASB reads "[i]in undergoing[/i] eternal fire." I read this as saying that they underwent (experienced) eternal fire. Now let's look at the second reading..."Sodom and Gomorrah... are exhibited as an example of eternal fire, in undergoing punishment." This reading (which is the side note "or" option in my Bible and is not literal) would seem to be even more in support of the concept of hell's punishment (by fire) not necessarily lasting forever, as we might think of it.If an example of hell's punishment by eternal fire is shown in Sodom and Gomorrah, then is it not clear that this punishment might only last for a season? It seems clear that Sodom and Gomorrah only experienced it for a season. So then if that is the example, perhaps others who will one day experience this punishment of eternal fire will only experience it for a season. Right?I read "in undergoing punishment" as sayinig that they underwent (experienced) punishment.
About a week ago I found something that Taco referred to- a startling quotation by G. Campbell Morgan. Here was my response:
I found that in the link you gave to an earlier discussion on this topic on the site. Can you give referrence to the source of this quotation? I must know the reference before I can fully accept it as G.C. Morgan, who just happens to be one of my favorite old time expositors.
In passing, and in connection with the great theme which we are only touching upon, let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word "eternity." We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our "eternal," which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. The strongest Scripture word used with reference to the existence of God, is- "unto the ages of ages," which does not literally mean eternally. Let us, however, remember that the self-same word, which is thus used in connection with the existence of God, is also applied to the loss of the human soul. Men have divided the Church, separated from each other, and persecuted one another, upon a thought conveyed by an English word which has no equivalent in the Bible. But who shall grasp "the ages of ages," or say that when a limit is reached, if limit there be, it is not that other ages upon ages may be born? God is subject to no limitation, and our finite thought must utterly fail to fathom the ages which He inhabits. [b]We have no right to dogmatize upon anything beyond what is written[/b]; nor should we use a human word to express Divine things in the great future, concerning which we know so little.
Jude 7"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fireIt is not talking about Sodom and Gomorrah, literally as in the cities itself, but rather using the names of the cities to make reference to the PEOPLE of the City that were destroyed by the fire from God. One, a city cannot "give ITSELF over to fornication and strange flesh":-is the people of the city that do thatThis is proven in two ways-one, was it the city itself that God hated, or the actions of the PEOPLE that lived in the City? The answer to that would be-the people, in which, in destroying the people of course the cities themselves were destroyed also-but it wasn't the cities itself God had an issue with. Two-the Bible, making reference this time to the actual cities, said this: 2 Peter 2:6 And turning the CITIES of Sodom and Gomorrha INTO ASHES condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodlyThis time, the verse is actually speaking about both the people and the actual city, but it has specific direct notation that it is literally referring to the city itself being turned into ashes and eveb the people that lived there-but that is not where the fire stopped for the human beings, it of course continued in Hell for them, but for the city itself it actually stopped at ashes. In Jude, the verse is making reference to the people that God's eternal fire vengence was set upon.This same principle is in Matt 12:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Is Jesus talking about the actual city repenting, or the people of the city repenting? This is the same tone in Jude 1:7 This is also proven by the statement of Jesus: