Thanks David,

Some excellent points, especially regarding false Christ's and gods.

You have expressed much of how I feel around this subject.

It is so painful to hear respected bible teachers like John McArthur teaching and expounding scripture faithfully but when it comes to 1 Corinthians 12,13 and 14 and other portions explaining the Holy Spirit baptism and gifts etc, they start doing spiritual gymnastics and subject the scriptures to the interpretation of their specific denomination or traditions of men.

When this happens, one no longer wants to listen to anything they have to say....such a shame. They could reach and teach a much greater audience if they remained faithful to what the bible clearly declares.

God bless,

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William

Brother I think your post is appropriate to the thread. You raise valid points. I don't know though if anyone who holds to a cessationist view will address them fairly.

I have tried to avoid naming certain Bible teachers and just addressing the movement as a whole. But there is one well-known Bible teacher in southern California that many of us respect. Indeed many of us who were baptized in the Holy Spirit were were weamed on his teaching. So it was disheartening when he held a conference a few years ago condemning virtually the entire charismatic movement to the pit of Hell.

The irony of the whole conference is that their cry would be Sola Scriptura. In other words let the scriptures be the foundation of doctrine. Then they would base their theology on four verses out of 1st Corinthians virtually doing theological gymnastics to establish the doctrine of cessationism based on the Canon of scripture.

Then the very thing the cessationusts would accuse the charismatics of doing. They themselves would do. The cessationist would use the experience of the counterfeit to discredit them true moving of the Holy Spirit. Rather than appealing to scripture.

There are men such as Dr. Michael Brown who are Spirit-filled believers. Dr. Brown commands academic credentials on a par with Dr. John MacArthur. He has asked for debate and dialogue with Dr. McArthur with open Bible on the issue of cessationism. Dr. MacArthur refuses to debate the question with Dr. Brown. My question is why.

The very thing the cessationist cry. Sola Scriptura. They do not want to do. Can it be that the cessationust realize that they cannot defend their position from the scriptures. At least not with an honest Berean spirit.

Personally I do not think that the doctrine of cessationism can be defended from the Scripture. At least I have not seen the evidence of Scripture to convince me that the Holy Spirit has stopped working as he did in Acts.

I do not want to appeal to experience alone. But I believe the experience I appeal to is established by the Scripture. Not seeing Scriptures that say the Holy Spirit has not ceased working padticularly in the area of dreams and visions. Then we see the phenomenal growth of Muslims that are leaving Islam and coming to Christ through dreams and visions. And their conversions are authentic. Authetic enough that they are willing to risk death and many of them do for the sake of following Jesus.

I have had a pastor on one of my prayer calls. He works in a restricted nation. He shared how God told him in his ministry the only way Muslims would be reached for Christ would be through miracles. Thus his ministry has been filled with miracles which have seen Muslims drawn to the Lord Jesus Christ.

The brother I describe is the real deal. He makes no issue of the niracles that God does through him. He talks more about Jesus Christ. He talks more about what He is going to do for Muslims. But he did share incredible stories that God did. Incredible to us. But normal for those who live out this type of faith and restricted nations.

If the doctrine of cessationism is true. Then I do not believe we would see the experiences that God is doing in the third world. However since this doctrine cannot be established from the Scriptures. What we see happening in restricted nations is confirmed and testified by the word of God.

Anyway brother these are my thoughts. Appreciate your post.

David brother,

I will answer you directly as you seem to be speaking to me personally.

I was a cessationist at one time, as it was the only teaching that l had received and can say categorically that these brethren are as much Christian as other groups .

I think you have misrepresented their beliefs however as they do not discount the working of the Holy Spirit today. They believe that He is still convicting of sin, guiding, giving gifts, comforting, in fact all of the things that scripture ascribes to Him including healing and speaking in unknown foreign languages.

Where they say His work has ceased is in the workings that we read of in scripture, as in the sign gifts for the purpose of the Jews, the many miracles that accompanied the preaching of the gospel, the many physical healings ( which have not ceased but are not as common, in fact greatly decreased) the doors burst assunder, the healings from a handkerchief etc etc. Nothing like this has been witnessed during my own conversion or the preaching of the gospel when l have been present .

They are just not seen like this since the beginning as it was a special period but that is not to deny they still occur but if they do, it is not for the same purpose, that is, to establish the New Covenant beginning.

I have seen amazing miracles during my walk, for example the woman l prayed for who was attending hospital next day for heart surgery who was found not to need it after all. And many miracles myself of healings and yes indeed l have read many testimonies about Spirit baptism from the holiness movement to confirm what had happened to me, without any prior knowledge of it and the fruit of it was as was said, that is, l had been made free from sin and had seen Jesus in all His glory regarding what His will was for a mere human.

I see much decption however, and a great lack of teaching about testing everything, and even find those who have never e ven thought that there could be a pseudo baptism and where the differences lie.

It is not condemnation and l am sorry that you see it that way, it is just a genuine concern for my brethren which can hopefully be discussed in a calm and respect manner without there being insults and over reactions.

Peace to you.

Madame Guyon was not a Quietist though perhaps some of what she wrote could be interpreted as coming close to it. Many in the Holiness movement used her writings.

Again, accusations against JPL ruining the ministry of ER are being made with no more reliable source other than someone else spreading rumours. On a Christian forum l find that incomprehensible.

As both of these writers say, it is effortless to obey when flesh has been crucified. Spiritual teachings are beyond normal human understanding. Both writers were very much scripture based.

Dear Blaire

Yes l dobelieve that in some countries, miracles are occuring when the gospel is preached though nowhere near the scale that occurred originally, otherwise the news channels would be filled with it.

Definitely not every time the gospel is preached today not most of the time since the beginning. If one observes this, and notes that tongues were not spoken of in later letters nor in the early church and there is a scripture that says that tongues will cease (of themselves according to the Greek) then l do not see where the problem is.

I think there can be an obsession with finding a verse for everything, or two verses. When there is a verse, and it can be verified by whatever is written or not written that backs it up, and then history backs that up further, then l think we are in the realm of denial. Wesley said that there should be reason as well as scripture.


But there are two issues here, one is the preaching of the gospel and another is when men are baptised in the Spirit, both taking place at Pentecost but rarely take place at the same time today unless it is during revival.

I wonder which you are meaning?

“Is God still confirming his gospel today by signs and wonders and various miracles and Gifts of the Holy Spirit? If not. Please give your reason from the scripture.”

Of course He is with a resounding Yes! I and many others here are walking testimonies of that truth. And thank you brother David for speaking what has been on my heart throughout the course of following this thread.
Professing that God’s gifts from His precious Holy Spirit have ceased for today is a lie straight from the pit of hell. Those who profess to be born again of God’s Holy spirit and deny that His gifts are operating in his Body today are deceived at best or at worst, willfully blind to the truth they refuse see. The old adage you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink is a sure fit as is the beating of a dead horse to further debate those who choose to remain steadfast in the lie. God forbid we grieve His Holy Spirit and have mercy and enlighten those who do so in ignorance.

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Lois

A much more devious false doctrine then that of being a secessionist is that of those individuals who deny the person and work of Jesus Christ,
Even in the forum you have those who deny the literal, physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. These whose basic claim is that his physical body rotted in the grave and his resurrection was purely spiritual in nature. That this spiritual jesus returned in 70 AD invisibly to the physical earth setting up his eternal spiritual Kingdom that no one can see. This spiritual body jesus is now reining over a spiritual Kingdom with perfect peace and harmony that the material Jesus died for (they say)

This is a far worse false doctrine that what the secessionists proclaim. They do not deny the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

These individuals however deny Jesus, his person and identity. They change the work of the cross from being a physical and literal work of salvation to that of a immaterial, spiritual so called salvation. That means that your body, my body will also rot in the grave and only the spirit remains, This salvation is partial according to their jesus because he did not overcome the world, flesh and the devil.

No, the real Son of Man defeated satan on every level, material, physical and eternally. His physical resurrection is proof positive. Thier spiritual jesus is a non existant loser.

These are not genuine believers as brother David suggests of the secessionists, These heresies, denying that Jesus is both man and God, past present and future are of an antichrist spirit and are far worse than debating what the Holy Spirit is now doing or not doing. Everything they say is based on a demonic misrepresentation of who the Lord Jesus is. This is far worse than being a secessionist

Then brother why don't you open up a thread on that issue so we do not have confusion on this thread. I would like to try to keep this thread more on the issue The Holy Spirit confirming the gospel by signs and wonders. At least to discuss if the Holy Spirit is still doing that in this day and age.

Thanks Julius, agreed.