| Poster | Thread | Spitfire
Member
Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633
| | Re: To Mikey | | Quote:
I have to say, in all love, that post did not seem to me to be inspired by the Spirit, but rather by your soul. I do sympathize with you knowing, that you have had some bad experience with false prophets, but let this no blind you from the truth.
Mike, you know I love you Brother. But, I strongly suspect this is the case. I did not follow the prophetic credentials thread closely, but I did see some strong opinions on there.
I just want to say this: If Ironman's word was from the Lord, then God will lend it power, if it wasn't, God will deal with him, and speaking from one who has been dealt with by God, a Holy Ghost whippin' is like no other! I've had people tell me my words were soulish, and they were right, but God was using it all to mold me, to crush me, to make me pliable. It's called the school of the prophets. We can't help being zealous about repentance, it's in our nature. Why can't we just say, if the shoe fits, wear it? |
|  2005/5/26 6:15 | Profile | ZekeO
Member
Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
| | Re: Seeing the wood for the trees | | Hello folk,
I think that the only one who has any authourity to question 'Ironmans' intent is Mike, who is a moderator or 'elder' on this site.
So having read what was propheside in the name of the Lord, I will throw my thoughts into the mix.
My initial response to the last word was, gee this is coincidental, after all that has been said over the last month or so about prophetic credentials, words etc. It seems to me that after such statements from 'heaven' God is intemately involove in proving the credentials of Ironman. Rebuking those who would question the validity of the word. I am not familiar with God doing such things in the OT with any prophet, but I may be mistaken.
If anything my understanding of the prophetic function, God would let Ironman die on the altar of self validation. And letting his prophet die the painful death of never being proved right that he in fact was the mouthpiece of the Lord. The only one bearing witness to his defence is the God who has sent him, not any acceptance apparently among the bretheren to whom he was sent.
In saying that I must accept that GOd may have said what he said through Ironman, God knows what the source was. I do not. My only comment is 'Thus sayeth the Lord...I do not use a Kings James Version' :-P
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Zeke Oosthuis
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| | 2005/5/26 7:56 | Profile | roadsign
Member
Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777
| | Re: false or immature | | There is a big difference between a false prophet and an immature prophet.
It think of Joseph who told his brothers about some dreams that annoyed them. That didn't mean they came from his soul or whatever. Joseph still didn't have the full picture at that time about a lot of things.
I'd be very reluctant to say that a call to repentance is not for this present time, for myself, or for this site. Who doesn't need to turn more fully towards God? Who doesn't have a few "idols in their closet"?
I'd prefer not to be guilty of throwing my brother down the well and selling him off to Egypt.
Maybe the message lacks grace, but I see nothing in it that will draw people away from God to follow after deceptions. I'd be far more concerned about the fine sounding "words" of those who promise peace and prosperity (esp if you give your money to them), ... or those who take an obscure truth in the Word and run away with it into a tangent that eventually turns into a deception followed by masses of people... and all those people who follow it because they are trusting in the words of man.
Diane
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Diane
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| | 2005/5/26 8:34 | Profile | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: Consider | | From
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=4823&forum=36&start=40&viewmode=flat&order=1] Is the baptism in the holy Spirit for us today?[/url] the following from the prophet:
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(IRONMAN)
"Would you not agree though that a revelation from God is also a unique revelation of the mind of God? I mean it is a personal encounter with God unlike any other. The apostles say little about their personal encounters with God or what gifts God gave them in their writings. I'm sure their dealings with God were very much varied and difficult to explain as have been mine and many others out there too. As far as being an insight into the character of God the bible does show us God's desire over the ages to have a relationship with us (all the covenants He as made) and how to go about having this relationship (through Christ) but the nature of each individual's relationship is such that it can't be simply written down. If the apostles wrote down their day to day walk with God or what gifts they had received people would probably seek after a similar relationship as opposed to the one which God had intended originally. In that aspect the bible is not exhaustive nor is it meant to be. [b]There are just going to be some revelations that you just can't back with the scripture because they are on a personal level which is not adressed in scripture."[/b]
Quote:
No other 'utterance' has this authority, so in this sense the bible is 'the be all and end all of the Word of God'. Its omissions were quided by God just as much as its additions. We seem to be missing the original 1 Corinthians; (1 Cor 5:9) we don't have it because it was not necessary for us to have it. Although it may well have contained 'truth' God did not choose this 'truth' as having worldwide and age-lasting signifance. It was no doubt a 'word from God' but it never became 'scripture'. And it is the scriptures which are to be our final court of appeal in all our teachings. ([b]Ron, Philologos[/b])
(IRONMAN)
"And what if the thing of concern is not adressed by scripture? to what do we turn but God Himself right? At the end of the day that is where the final authority is because that is where the scriptures came from. They came from spirit and should be looked upon as such. All to often we try to rationalize or explain things with our minds and we get all messed up in that. I've been speaking in tongues for only 6 yrs, and for maybe 4 or five of them I've not said anything in the tongues at all. I'm not sure how scripture would adress that but Lately though this has changed. For instance there has been a manifestation of several different tongues, a primary one and some others that are used less often and couple that have been used maybe once or twice.[b][u]One of them is an angelic one for communication with angels[/u]. Now how do I know this? It is just innate knowlegde of the spirit which has been revealed to me. [u]I have nothing in scripture that I can use to convince anyone of that and so in some circles I may be considered a heretic.*[/u][/b] The closest thing would be the scripture 1 John 2:27 about how the annointing one receives is what teaches and that no man can teach you these things. Perhaps that's why the apostles' personal dealings with God are not mentioned much in scripture, someone at some point would take hold of it and decide that "this is the only way to go"
Ron, my experience with God has shown me that I have made many wromg assumptions about Him and that we all have. In all truth we know nothing of how God works and I'm cool with that because God is teaching me to be open to whatever He has for me no matter how outlandish it may seem. All too often we put God in a box and miss out on SOOO MUCH in terms of revelation and blessing and gifts etc because we hold onto things which are comfortable to us. The richness of our relationship with God is limited only by how open we are to Him, how big we allow Him to be. Your experience with God and mine are pretty different because our responsibilities in the body of Christ require it to be so. We will not always agree nor have anything to substantiate strongly enough to convince one another of what God is doing in our lives."
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[b]*"One of them is an angelic one for communication with angels.[/b]
Needs to be addressed seperately and to follow this reply.
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(IRONMAN)
Quote:
You then try to instruct them how they ought to prophecy, tell me are they your prophets or my own?How is it that you look with contempt on my messengers? Is there some sort of test they must pass in order that they become prophets?
Yes.
Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. For ye may all prophesy one by one,that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 1Co 14:29-33
Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men. See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men. 1Th 5:14,15
1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
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(Jimm)
Quote:
I have to say, in all love, that post did not seem to me to be inspired by the Spirit, but rather by your soul.
(IRONMAN)
Quote:
Whosoever judges those whom I have called to various positions in the kingdom be warned, I shall judge you by the same measure.
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Turning the tables...
(IRONMAN)
Quote:
Speak boldly therefore and do not fear the rejection that will come from many of your brethren.
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Mike Balog
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| | 2005/5/26 9:05 | Profile | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: Angels | | (IRONMAN)
Quote:
One of them is an angelic one for communication with angels. Now how do I know this? It is just innate knowlegde of the spirit which has been revealed to me. I have nothing in scripture that I can use to convince anyone of that and so in some circles I may be considered a heretic.
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"[i]Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh[/i]. Col 2:18-23
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[b]Col 2:18 - Let no man beguile you of your reward,....[/b] Or prize; the allusion is to the Olympic games, one of which was running races; in which the stadium, or race plot was fixed, a mark set up to look and run unto, a corruptible crown proposed to be run for, and which was held by one who sat as judge, and determined who got the victory, and to whom the crown belonged; these judges sometimes acted the unfair part, and defrauded the victors of their proper right, and to such the apostle compares the false teachers: the Christian's reward, or prize he is running for, is the incorruptible and never fading crown of glory, life, and righteousness; the race plot is the Christian life, spent in the exercise of grace, and discharge of duty, and in holding fast, and holding out in a profession of faith unto the end; the mark he looks at, and presses towards, is Jesus Christ; and his great concern, the apostle by this metaphor suggests should be, lest by false teachers he should be defrauded of the prize of the high calling of God, through their removing the mark Christ from him, by denying his person and Godhead; or by intercepting his sight of him, placing other objects before him, such as angels, to be worshipped and adored; or by darkening of it, joining Moses and Christ, law and Gospel, works and grace together, in the business of salvation; whereby he might seem to come short, or be in danger of coming short of the heavenly glory:
[b]in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels[/b]; these things the apostle instances in, as in what lay their danger of being beguiled of their reward, or prize. True humility is an excellent grace; it is the clothing and ornament of a Christian; nor is there anything that makes a man more like Christ, than this grace; but in these men here respected, it was only the appearance of humility, it was not real; it was in things they devised and willed, not in things which God commanded, Christ required, or the Scriptures pointed at; they would have been thought to have been very lowly and humble, and to have a great consciousness of their own vileness and unworthiness to draw nigh to Christ the Mediator immediately, and by him to God; wherefore in pretence of great humility, they proposed to make use of angels as mediators with Christ; whereby Christ, the only Mediator between God and man, would be removed out of sight and use; and that humble boldness and holy confidence with God at the throne of grace, through Christ, which believers are allowed to use, would be discouraged and destroyed, and the saints be in danger as to the outward view of things, and in all human appearance of losing their reward: "worshipping of angels" was a practice which very early prevailed among some that were called Christians, and for a long time continued in Phrygia and Pisidia; some make Simon Magus, and others Cerinthus, the author of this idolatry; but was not only a branch of the Platonic philosophy, and so a part of that philosophy and vain deceit before mentioned, Col_2:8, which these men might have borrowed from the Gentiles, but was a notion and practice of the Jews: before the Babylonish captivity, the names of angels were not known, nor are they ever mentioned by name in Scripture; hence they say (s), that "the names of angels came up with them, or by their means from Babylon:
after this they began to talk much of them, and to have too high a veneration for them, and ascribe too much to them; and observing that the law was ordained, spoken, and given by them, and that the administration of things under the former dispensation was greatly by their means, they fell to worshipping of them (t); and the believing Jews were hereby in great danger of falling into the same practice: hence the author of the epistle to the Hebrews, writing to the Jewish church, largely insists on the proof of Christ being superior to angels; showing that he has a more excellent name than they had; that he was the Son of God in such sense as they were not the sons of God; that they were worshippers of him, yea, that they were creatures made by him, and even ministering spirits to his saints, the heirs of salvation: and very rightly, is worshipping of angels condemned here by the apostle, since God only is the object of worship; since these are creatures, and so not to be adored; are worshippers of God and Christ themselves, and have refused adoration when it has been offered to them: that the Jews did, and do worship angels, and make use of them as mediators and intercessors, is clear from their liturgy, or prayer books, where they say (u).
"מלאכי רחמים, "O ye angels of mercies", or ye merciful angels, ministers of the most High, entreat now the face of God for good:
and elsewhere (w),
"they say three times, let Juhach keep us, let Juhach deliver us, and let Juhach help us:
now Juhach was the name of an angel, who they supposed had the care of men, and is taken from the final letters of those words in Psa_91:11, "for he shall give his angels charge over thee": so they speak of an angel whom they call Sandalphon, who they say is appointed over the prayers of the righteous (x): with this notion the judaizing and false teachers seem to have been tinctured, and against which the apostle here cautions the saints, lest, under a show of humility, they should be drawn into it: and to preserve them from it, he observes, that such an one who should spread and propagate such a notion, was one that was
[b]intruding into those things which he hath not seen;[/b] thrusting himself in a bold and daring manner into an inquiry and search after, debate upon, and affirmation of things he could have no certain knowledge of; as of angels, whose nature, qualities, works, and ministrations, he had never seen with his bodily eyes; nor could ever discern with the eyes of his understanding any such things in the Scriptures, which he ascribed to them; but they were the birth of his own mind, the fruits of his own fancy and imagination, things devised in his own brain: being
[b]vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind;[/b] judging of things not according to the word of God, and with a spiritual judgment, and according to a spiritual sense and experience, but according to his own carnal reason, and the vanity of his mind; being puffed and swelled with an high opinion of himself, of his great parts and abilities, of his knowledge of things above others, and of his capacity to penetrate into, and find out things which were not seen and known by others: this shows that his humility was forced, and only in outward appearance, and was not true and genuine,
(s) T. Hieros. Roshhashanah, fol. 56. 4. (t) Vid. Clement. Alex Stromat. l. 6. p. 635. (u) Seder Tephillot, Ed. Basil fol. 222. 2. (w) Ib.
John Gill
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Mike Balog
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| | 2005/5/26 9:30 | Profile | tinluke
Member
Joined: 2005/4/8
Posts: 220
New England USA
| | Re: The face of a false pophet | | I've seen the face of a false prophet. They are smooth talkers, they tickel the ears and build you up. They NEVER EVER offer a word of rebuke or anything that will ever challenge you to draw closer to the Lord or turn from you worldly ways.
If we are mature Christians why would we be offended by a challenging word?? If you do not need to repent from anything, that is GREAT!! Go on living you life for the Lord and peace be with you! If you do need to lay something down then a message like this ought to challenge you.
I guess I don't see what all the fuss is about. :-(
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tina
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| | 2005/5/26 10:34 | Profile | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: Personal thoughts, motivations | | Zekeo,
Would like to address something here regarding authority and such. This is a community, a fellowship and that fact is often overlooked, even with the continual harping to that effect.
That there is to be a consideration to others, to their questions, to their thoughts and their concerns. To researching things out, not only here but of primary import, scriptures themselves.
Will not put up a false sense of modesty, there is an understanding that to 'moderate' is to attempt to do just that and that only in and of itself. Conduct usually the issue as time has proven here again and again. The want of self exaltation is unfortunately a form of pride and it rears it's ugly head in various ways and manners and would be hard pressed not to say that it doesn't exist in all of us in varying levels and degree's. It is something to be done away with and often times it is only by being confronted. All of this is something that is a constant challenge brought forth by the speakers and members that congregate here and I carry with me the thought's and considerations, the challenges to my own thinking or lack thereof always.
But there is a collective wisdom here and to not confront the error, the danger, the problems is not to be misconstrued as unloving but it's opposite. And the authority is spread across this collectiveness. In other words, for the most part here there is a holding to scripture as the final rule for all things in this walk and it would seem apparent enough just why that is. Look at what these 'extra' things bring forth? Even in this case presently a dividing, a for or against, one side or the other, and to what can we turn to for a 'proving'?
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
2Ti 3:16 [b]All scripture[/b] is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for [u]reproof[/u], for [u]correction[/u], for [u]instruction[/u] in righteousness:
So in that sense we all are able and should be using this as our authority, [i]rightly dividing the truth[/i].
And to the rest Zekeo, I must concur: Quote:
My initial response to the last word was, gee this is coincidental, after all that has been said over the last month or so about prophetic credentials, words etc. It seems to me that after such statements from 'heaven' God is intemately involove in proving the credentials of Ironman. Rebuking those who would question the validity of the word. I am not familiar with God doing such things in the OT with any prophet, but I may be mistaken.
Again this very much problematic and is where the danger is in these pronouncements. The sense of accepting without validation anything that anyone speaks in the name of the Lord is what we now have a plethora of, look at someone like Andrew Strom, Oh I do hope that anyone familiar with him and his ministry will pray for him. He has recently turned his back on much of this after being caught up in it in various ways and he preached heavily on repentance! This is the danger, how much we could recall from his own words that would sound so similar to what is being said here. Hard things, strong exhortations, so on and so forth...
But, are they authentic? That is the ultimate question. It is not likely a reach that Andrew was very convinced that the words he spoke where in fact prophecies. Recall some of them, of a coming street revival and such... Whatever came of it? Was it true? Is it just 'delayed'? What of the ones caught up in all this? Will their hopes be dashed? Was it necessary to speak forth in the first place? Will this bring doubt's and questions to others believing another "Thus sayeth..." Did it foster an unnecessary, constant bearing of repentance to things that do have a end?
The mention of Isaiah much earlier coincides with this:
"Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth. Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.
Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?
When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place? For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him. For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod. Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen. This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.
Isa 28:22-29
The ramifications of these things. Not that it matters all that much, but am I angry? You bet.
The ease and disregard, the flippancy and lack of consideration for the extreme weight those four words carry. How can it be overlooked that one is speaking the very words of the creator of the universe and if so, that those words are [i][b]His[/i][/b] if they in fact are. And we are to propagate the same error by joining with a nod of the head and the only validation being two brothers self validating each other, because they say so we are to believe them... or else, [i]watch out[/i]. Nonsense. To sit back and say nothing while this assumption that I mentioned earlier is put forth, and anticipated that the questioning of authenticity would be met with this kind of thing and to let it go on here before all these members and the watching world, yes I am angry at that. There are some things worth being angry about, people being misled, fostering confusion, disregard for others and an ex halting of self and pride, lack of humility and seriousness with something as profound as speaking Gods very words and then dismissing it all with a hand wave of [i]it's not my problem[/i] and [i] I just say what I am told to say[/i]. Rubbish.
Quote:
There is a big difference between a false prophet and an immature prophet.
Diane, I am not so sure. Best I can tell there is no such thing scripturally to buttress that. IF, it is so that one could be immature he ought to keep quiet and not say things attributing them to God [i]'says[/i].
There has been much patience, much forbearing with all this here and to think that this all comes with some sort of ease, off the top of the head or that it is not grevious...
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Mike Balog
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| | 2005/5/26 11:05 | Profile | ZekeO
Member
Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
| | Another look at the same thing | | Just need to speak from another angel.
There is a scripture which says:For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, [b]having itching ears[/b]...2 Tim 4:3
In the context of this forum, many here would want to hear that the church must repent, judgement is coming and the wrath of God is being revealed from heaven. They would say Amen! Right on! Not that I want to paint the whole with the same brush, but how many members are disgruntled with the modern church?
See where I'm coming from?
Quote:
I guess I don't see what all the fuss is about.
From all appearances it seems that God has taken sides in a debate which I think he may not have done. Thats the fuss, for me.
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Zeke Oosthuis
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| | 2005/5/26 11:36 | Profile | philologos
Member
Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: A call to Repentance | | Quote:
Thus saith the Lord:
Repent from your evils my children for I am about to pour out my wrath on the earth. Repent now.
This is not what I am hearing. I think we need to be very cautious before adding the words 'thus saith the Lord' to our personal convictions.
edit:
I had only just got to the initial posting when I posted the above but have now had time to consider the utterances. Sometimes we have to be blunt for the sake of truth. I have absolutely no witness that any of the so-called prophecies here are from God. If fact, I will step up to the line, and say I am quite convinced that they are not.
I dipped into the 'credentials of prophets' and saw this coming. It is what fishermen call ground-baiting. Scatter a few things around to draw in the fish and then put in the bait with the hook. Jimm and Ironman clearly have an agenda and have had it for some time. I am not at liberty to betray confidences but I have spoken privately by email with Ironman and sought to warn him of the sources of his revelations. He has chosen to ignore those warning so know I make them public.
I do not reject the word of repentance, but I reject the threat which accompanied it. Repentance, incidentally is always specific. To say 'repent' and to give no clue as to what we are to 'repent of' is not the way the God works. He never says 'repent' without giving 'specific directions'.
I have been around the block a few times with pentecostals and charismatics and there are certain traits which surface from time to time. At best these utterances are self-induced; at worst something much worse. My counsel is to ignore them.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2005/5/26 11:59 | Profile | tinluke
Member
Joined: 2005/4/8
Posts: 220
New England USA
| | Re: wow | | I'm am so greived by all of this. Half of us are deceived and half of us are correct?? Are we not the bride of Chist?!?!? I just don't get it.
I see things in black and white. Either Ironman is a false prophet or a prophet of God. Either we need to repent or we don't. Why not just get alone with God and ask Him what HE thinks.
I personally believe that Judgment is coming to America. Do I delight in the fact that other's may agree with ME??? Absolutly NOT!!! My heart is so broken. It is with an anguished heart that I say judgement is coming to America. I am so greived by this sort of message. I may live a very comfortable life now, but I have seen the other side of it. I have seen comunism first hand, I've looked into the ovens where my relatives bodies were burned!! I am broken when I hear this message!!
Jesus loves His church and He is returning soon. I love my brothers and sisters in Christ and I pray that we will all seek a deeper relationship with HIM.
We need to spend more time praying for each other and less time trying to set each other straight. I say this with a heart full of love and sorrow.
In HIS deep abiding LOVE, Tina
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tina
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| | 2005/5/26 14:06 | Profile |
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