| Poster | Thread | taco
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211
| | Re: live/walk in the spirit | | I was reading Nee's biography last night again (against the tide). As a young man, there was an island that he had felt he was to go and proclaim the gospel to. HE struggled with the idea because it was a dangerous place but accepted it as God's will and began preparations. Many brothers were to go with him, a house was prepared and so forth. But five days before he was due to go his parents forbade him to go. He was sorely dissapointed and so prayed about the matter saying, "Lord is it not your will that I go?" the Lord said "yes its my will that you go, but I take no delight in my will be forced to happen" (approx)
There are two parts that I would like to emphasise in relation to walking in the Spirit.
1)Revelation of God's will.
2)Yieldedness to his timing and to His way.
Moses knew he was to be deliverer but needed to wait on God's direction. Abraham knew he was to be father of many nations, but again, needed to wait for God to move.
Often we make the mistake of thinking that because we know what God's ultimate goal is (in realtion to a particular issue) we can just go ahead and do it. |
|  2005/5/6 8:08 | Profile | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Hi Mr. Nath,
Quote:
How does this scripture fit into the issue of 'walking in the Spirit'. If we resist the Holy Ghost long enough and remain carnal (in sin or living out of our own strength) do we walk out from under God's grace...'lose' our salvation?
I tend to take a different line on this topic. I believe that if a person were genuinely born again that the chances of them ultimately being lost are very slim. J. Vernon McGee used to say that the 'sons' always return to the father's house and the hogs return to the hog pen. No matter how much you dress up a hog- he is by nature still a hog. Spray perfume dress him up and he is still a hog. On the other hand, no matter how muddy the son may get he is by nature still a 'son.' The son will come to himself if he is really a son. He is never at home in the muck and the mire. There are some anomalies to this view for sure- but by and large I believe it to be so.
Leonard Ravenhill stressed the need for the [i]New Birth[/i]. There must be a new birth experience in the life of a believer. This is a change of nature. The appetites change. Many who think they are Christians are actually what C. G. Finney called "professors." They profess Christ- but they never made it past the convicted state. They never really yielded everything to God. The Holy ghost brought them to the crossroads and they would not yield fully to Him and now they just hang around with a false assurance. Really it is no assurance at all because you see them often come to the altar for salvation every week. They know what God wants from them. They are aware of the controversy He has with them. Yet, they will not submit that thing to him.
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This was the first scripture I read when I bought a NKJV about a year ago, it wasn't in my NIV and it blew my mind and has engaged alot of meditation since. Seems to be a huge doctrinal statement left out of some translations if it actually means what it appears to read.
This is a topic of much discussion here at SI. Certainly for study purposes you need a more literal translation. NKJV is a good start. The KJV is my favorite as I believe it is nearest the best as a translation. The language takes some getting used to- but you can match the words to a concordance and get a better feel for the meaning of the original Greek or Hebrew words.
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The idea of resisting the flesh and submitting to the Holy Ghost daily has been on my heart since first reading that scripture, but most intensly the last couple of months. This thread is really timely.
Remember the New Testament passage: [b]submit yourselves therefor unto God, resist the devil and he will flee from you[/b]? The KEY to this passage is submission to God. We think (and I have felt this also) that we need to resist "the flesh" or "Sin" or "the world" and that is it. Yet, the first thing we must do is fully submit to God. That is the hardest thing of all as we don't like to yield [i]everything[/i] up to Him too easily. When we submit everything to Him the Holy Spirit will come in in fulness and empower us to live holy. We can't help but live holy when we are full of the Spirit. All our appetites are in subjection to God. Nothing is running rampant and wild. This is why the enemy 'flees.' The old timey preacher used to say- when the devil comes knocking send Christ to the door. I think there is some truth there.
God Bless,
-Robert
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2005/5/6 8:59 | Profile | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: Walk | | Oh, this is bound to be very helpful, this thread, already just a quick attempt at catching up here is causing some stirring...
On the 'down' side of things...
Quote:
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.
How many times I have heard that verse cut short at that point and have practically lost my sanctified self (well, that's a bit problamatic isn't it...) even again from a [i]good[/i] preacher on the radio that probably had the rest of the traffic thinking I needed to be locked up... [i][b]Finish the verse!!!![/b][/i]
"., [b]who[/b] walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
It's been mentioned before but... goodness, when will this stop? It almost makes one want to say "If you don't quit doing this type of thing there will be..."
Anyway... :-?
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Mike Balog
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| | 2005/5/6 10:31 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
"., who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
This would be a good time to maybe see if Bro. Ron could help us out in understanding the relationship of 'walking in the Spirit' and the [i]paraclete[/i]- the one that walks along side. This seems to speak to relationship. Many illusions to God walking with us in Abraham My Friend come to mind.
Hmmm. Walking with God. Walking in communion. Able to 'look into the eyes' so to speak with a clearness of conscience. It is so relationship based.
God Bless,
-Robert
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2005/5/6 11:26 | Profile | philologos
Member
Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Mike
Part of the reason that the verse is not completed is due to questions about whether it was always just like this! Many modern versions won't have this last half of the verse.
We are back into the territory of the Greek manuscript families here, but there is another reason why some question whether or not it should be here. How are we to understand the verse as it stands? Is it saying that 'no condemnation' is only the case for those who 'are walking according to the Spirit'? If so is this verse not teaching 'justification by sanctification'? Does God declare those just who 'walk in the Spirit' or does He 'justify the ungodly' who put their faith in Him? (Rom 4:5)
Galatians 5:25 indicates the possibility that an individual may 'live in the Spirit' but not 'walk in the Spirit'. What would the legal position of such a person be? Would they be 'justified' or 'condemned'? These are mutually exclusive legal terms; it is 'either/or'. If the Romans 8:1 is saying that 'only' those who are 'walking in the Spirit' (and it is present tense) it would imply that our legal condition could keep on switching from 'condemnation' to 'justification' depending on the day!
The question to be asked is "is 'walking in the Spirit' the necessary condition of 'no condemnation' or is 'believing faith' the necessary condition of 'no condemnation'? If it is the former we are on the tight-rope of the theology of Finney & Co. If it is the latter we are in the hands of the classic reformed position of 'justification by faith'.
Of course, God will never condone an imperfect walk, but does he demand a perfect walk as a necessary condition of acceptance?
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2005/5/6 11:35 | Profile | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Of course, God will never condone an imperfect walk, but does he demand a perfect walk as a necessary condition of acceptance?
I think it would be good at this point to gather in the passages of Galatians 5 to help us sort this out. What do we mean to 'walk after the flesh'? What is it to 'live after the flesh'? What is the behavior of those who are 'in the flesh'? When I think about 'flesh' I am thinking in terms of a life lived apart from the Holy Spirit. It seems to me that the following list in Galatians 5 is the only course a person would take without the Spirit of God.
Here we read:
[b]Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are 'these': fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties, envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. [/b](Galatians 5 ASV)
What does it mean to 'practice such things'? Is the word of God telling us that one infraction of one item in this list constitutes not inheriting the Kingdom of God until it is repented of? Finney would have said yes. Not only yes to this list, but yes to any doubtful behavior. He did, however, make an exception in certain of his writings about times when one was overcome with temptation or the like and committed the sin out of character. However, he jumps right back into his hardline stance so it's hard to tell what he though would hapen. Moreover he believed if it was 'questionable' it was [i]sin[/i] and therefor called the salvation into question. I cannot go that route. The list of Galatians 5 is what God calls 'works of the flesh.' I don't believe we are at liberty to just arbitrarily 'add' to it to keep people in bondage. Certainly there are ups and downs in our Christian life- but how far down do we go before we are no longer justified?
To keep this simple I think personally that one has lost their salvation if the Holy Spirit has departed. If He has departed it would be evidenced by the rampant sin described in Galatians 5. If we are FULL of the Holy Spirit and walking in the Spirit then those things will be at a bare minimum.
The enemy will attack the [i]emotions[/i] when he cannot prevail against the [i]affections[/i]. He wants us to allow the sun to go down on our wrath and give him a place with which to keep us in termoil and then [i]strike[/i] the affections. Sort of like a one-two knock out blow. He attacks the 'flesh' and its needs and reactions to circumstances. He exploits the natural tendencies of man.
God Bless,
-Robert
_________________
Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2005/5/6 15:12 | Profile |
| | Re: Live / Walk in the Spirit | | The phrase 'incorruptible seed' comes to me. Suggest reading 1 and 2 Peter 1 (whole chapters) in Young's translation. Something solid about the word there, in the context of this discussion.
[url=http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm]http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm[/url]
Quote:
What does it mean to 'practice such things'?
If I 'lie' I am a liar. If I 'steal' I am a thief'. If I die in Christ, the source of my lying and thieving has died, but I am faced with the old practices of lying and thieving to bring to an end by 'repenting', by practising telling the truth, by stopping myself from stealing. Is this walking in the Spirit, or, is it [i]not[/i] 'walking in the flesh'? Is it a 'choice' between two natures, (the flesh or the Spirit?) or is it obedience to a new nature?
Just in passing, Leanne Payne mentions in one of her books (sorry can't remember which) that she has prayed with some, for the healing of their will(power). Not to trivialise this legitimate consideration, (after which repentance and (choosing) righteousness may come as a joy, rather than a supreme effort) this is something anyone can pray for themselves, if the Lord seems to be prompting. Rather than every choice being a battle, it is easier to (finally) give up one's right to 'first choice', to Him, whose desire to lead us into only good choices, cannot be questioned. |
| | 2005/5/6 16:05 | | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: Brain cells | | Hi Ron,
Quote:
Part of the reason that the verse is not completed is due to questions about whether it was always just like this! Many modern versions won't have this last half of the verse.
I had almost completely forgot about that, thanks for straighting me out here.
A little digression there, part of the particular burr that wedge's in the saddle is from some that I know who have used this as an excuse for practically anything under the sun. That "[b]in[/b]", in effect means 'license'... But that is a whole other can of worms.
"Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh".
Quote:
The question to be asked is "is 'walking in the Spirit' the necessary condition of 'no condemnation' or is 'believing faith' the necessary condition of 'no condemnation'? If it is the former we are on the tight-rope of the theology of Finney & Co. If it is the latter we are in the hands of the classic reformed position of 'justification by faith'.
Dare I say... both? That would be of course if we extracted out that one word... 'conditon'.
How about 'effect'?
Something on the order of "The effect of a believer who is not condemned, nor fullfiling the lust of his flesh is one who walks in the Spirit"
Mike-y translation :-?
What is the effect then? Talking to myself out loud here.... so I would have to add... [i] and the Lord is well pleased with him.[/i]
Of course it doesn't say that...
It would be interesting to delve more into the how's and what have you's about the 'adding' of that section in Romans 1, or maybe we have before...think I am running out of head drive space :-)
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Mike Balog
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| | 2005/5/6 16:09 | Profile | philologos
Member
Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Some interesting ideas here Mike. Pity they closed the canon before you got to think them. :-D
Here is an accusation that was made of Paul
Quote:
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? (Rom. 6:1, KJVS)
Paul never tries to defend himself against this accusation but simply implies that if you can ask the question you haven't experienced what he is talking about.
We have to preach a gospel in which grace is so absolutely the gift of God that technically it would be possible to bring the accusation of Rom 6:1 against us. There is nothing wrong with the logic of the question only the heart of the questioner.
Paul's earlier statement in Rom 5 referring to a 'God who justifies the ungodly' still takes my breath away!
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2005/5/6 17:39 | Profile | rookie
Member
Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN
| | Re: | | Br. Robert wrote:
Quote:
I tend to take a different line on this topic. I believe that if a person were genuinely born again that the chances of them ultimately being lost are very slim. J. Vernon McGee used to say that the 'sons' always return to the father's house and the hogs return to the hog pen. No matter how much you dress up a hog- he is by nature still a hog. Spray perfume dress him up and he is still a hog. On the other hand, no matter how muddy the son may get he is by nature still a 'son.' The son will come to himself if he is really a son. He is never at home in the muck and the mire. There are some anomalies to this view for sure- but by and large I believe it to be so.
This particular story was the reason for my leaving the church I attend once again. My pastor taught similar to what you have stated here. Yet what does Scripture say?
Luke 15:31 And he said to him, Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.
Listen to the condition of the prodigal son..."for your brother was [b]dead[/b] and is [b]alive again[/b], and was [b]lost[/b] and is found."
This Scripture does not conflict with any other Scripture. This is saying the same things as when Paul writes:
Col. 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Paul warns us that one must continue in the faith. What does it mean to continue in the faith?
In Christ
Jeff
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Jeff Marshalek
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| | 2005/5/10 10:59 | Profile |
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