Brothers I think we are all on the same page regarding the Spirit convicting us through Gods word. I deeply apologize if my posts were offensive. I sought to reason from the New Testament out of a heart of His Love. My desire was we would not get into self condemnation into a check list mentality.

Brothers anybody who knows me will tell you the word of Christ is central in my life. But also it must be His Spirit to apply it to my life.

I have found the discussions to be good and iron sharpening. It was good for Lesmanto to open up the thread.

Brothers I think this is a good point for me to bow out. Must tend to other things. But God bless each of you. Lord willing, will meet you on another thread.

Bear master :-)

Brother Mark, I really do appreciate your input and agree with most of what you share. But I do have a slight concern about this portion of your post:

_________________
Oracio

Amen brother Blaine, no hard feelings at all here. I agree with you on differentiating between self condemnation and conviction of the Spirit.

_________________
Oracio

Non Catholic church goers in Britain, who have never been saved are known as Liberals. They go to church because they belong to a certain social class which has a family background of church goers in the days when these people would have more social standing. They often have a background of liberal Church of England fathers who were vicars. In the past however, there were many more Evangelicals. In Wesley's day l have no idea how many but they would not be the ordinary men in the street. They would be Catholic or lndependents.

So these higher class people of whom l am well acquainted through my time in the Church of England, traditionally, go to church on Sundays and believe that taking communion and doing good works in the community in return for their privileges in life, well equip them for heaven. They do not take the scriptures literally and would never consider a need for inner purity. An Englishman's thoughts are his own, like his house is his castle.

The idea that a group of such people would be getting together and formatting lists to question each other about their wrongdoings is absolutely way out of the window according to the social mores and stiff upper lip attitudes amongst these men and women. If it is the American way it is not the British way and less so in Wesleys time when pretense and social standing were all.

You would only get a group like that amongst men who were already believers and familiar with holiness teaching and following that pathway. The liberals would more than likely never have heard about it even. It never has gained much ground here apart from in times like Wesley's followers. Ask an Englishman what holiness teaching is and he won't have a clue whereas ask an American and he will say no drinking, no shorts, no ........

No the list was written by Christians who were encouraging each other to be in a repentant state of mind in order to seek the same as what Wesley had found at Aldersgate.

It is for those who hunger and thirst for holiness.

Just for the record brother Paul West, I really did appreciate and agree with your emphasis on focusing on Christ in us as opposed to looking solely within and to ourselves, and your emphasis on acknowledging our fallenness and shortcomings. The part that probably stood out the most to me was this, "I know I could be more patient, because Jesus lives in me and He is more patient. I know I could be more giving, because Jesus lives in me and He is more giving. I know I could be more humble, because Jesus live in me in He is more humble. I know I could be more punctual, because Jesus lives in me and He is more punctual. I know I could be more honest, because Jesus lives in me and He is more honest, etc."

_________________
Oracio

Krautfrau wrote:
"Non Catholic church goers in Britain, who have never been saved are known as Liberals. They go to church because they belong to a certain social class which has a family background of church goers in the days when these people would have more social standing. They often have a background of liberal Church of England fathers who were vicars. In the past however, there were many more Evangelicals. In Wesley's day l have no idea how many but they would not be the ordinary men in the street. They would be Catholic or lndependents"

I tend to agree with this and the rest of what you wrote. It's probably hard for those in the USA to understand this.

Most of those who were at Oxford University at the same time would have considered themselves Christian and attended the church services. They looked upon Wesley and his friends as extremists and therefore called them 'that holy club' and Methodists as a derogatory thing.

I don't think we can be so bold as to ascribe dates to when we think someone became a child of God. Even if some of their experiences they described appear this way. We are talking about nearly 300 years ago and our perceptions of recorded events may not be the same as intended. I'm not saying either way, it is not for me to declare when someone is saved. Also I think our doctrinal positions affect our thinking on this.

_________________
Dave

Yes HeyDave, exactly right, it would be the posh liberals who would make fun of the other crowd, the Holy ones and they could have been no other but Evangelicals as there were no other groups to be found. In Britain it is liberals who take the scripture as myth, or the born agains.

Social classes in Britain were even more rigid in the past so you can make generalisations that would be impossible in the US.

Another point about these CofE unsaved men, is that they have never engaged in midweek meetings. They certainly never pray together, they do not have time, being so busy in social events and attending the 'Lodge'being good Free Masons.

Hi Oracio,
To be clear I am not advocating that the scriptures are no longer needed at any stage of growth of a believer. Neither am I suggesting that we ever reach a point of perfection at all because we will only reach Christs perfection once we are glorified and become just like Him.

What I am saying is that many of the instructions given in the scripture are vitally important but so much that is often referred to as "instructions for living" could be classified as "milk" and actually that is what Hebrews calls it. But this is very vital to the formation and development of baby christians and that is why getting the scriptures into the languages of pagan cultures is so important.

But to use your example, a person who still gets angry and hates others in their heart is still a baby in at least that area and needs to be taught again basic elementary teachings until they learn to be obedient to the Lord. But as we learn obedience, denying our self-will, we begin to mature and the Lord is able to feed us more and more solid food...or as Hebrews calls it, the "Word of Righteousness".

This is not a lifestyle of following elementary instructions but rather having matured, we are able to be more fully controlled by the Holy Spirit...which allows His divine nature to grow in us. This is in contrast to living a moral life under the instruction of commandments verses living out the new life of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant.

Hebrews 5 better explains my some of my thoughts:
"About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil."

From Zac Poonen:
"Old Testament saints could receive a number of blessings from God. They could receive forgiveness of sins (as David received - Psa. 103:3) and be justified by faith (as Abraham was - Gen. 15:6;Rom. 4:2,3). They could also come to an external righteousness of life (as Zacharias and Elisabeth came to - Lk. 1:6) and be anointed for service (as Gideon and Elisha were - Judg. 6:34;2 Ki. 2:9-15).

In other words, they could come into the Outer Court and even into the Holy Place. But when they came to the veil curtaining- off the Most Holy Place, they could not proceed any further. They could not partake of God's nature.

Under the New Covenant however, the way has been opened for us to enter right through the veil into the Most Holy Place. We are told in Hebrews 10:19,20 that we now have "confidence to enter the (most) holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh".

The temple in Jerusalem (built according to the pattern of the tabernacle) also had a veil between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place. This was torn from top to bottom, when Jesus died on Calvary (Matt. 27:50,51). This signified a finished work that Jesus had done in His flesh.

The secret of living a godly life (we are told in 1 Tim. 3:16) lies in knowing that Christ came in the flesh and kept His spirit pure and undefiled. It is thus that the way into the Most Holy Place has been opened for us to enter in.

Man's self-will is the thick "veil" that blocks off the presence of God from him. Jesus denied His own will at all times during His earthly life. It was thus that He kept His spirit pure. We too can walk the same way, if we "crucif y the flesh (self-will) with its passions and desires" (Gal. 5:24). We can then dwell in the Most Holy Place always as Jesus did.

When the apostle writes to the Hebrews, contrasting milk with solid food (Heb. 5:13), he tells them that the truth (`solid food') was "difficult to explain" (v. 11). That truth (as the context clearly shows in Heb. 5:7-10) referred to Christ in the days of His flesh, praying with loud crying and tears, suffering, obeying and being made complete.

Just as it was difficult for many believers to receive this truth in the first century, it is difficult for most believers to receive it today also. And the reason is the same - because they are "dull of hearing" (Heb. 5:11). And they are dull of hearing because they are content with their sub- standard defeated state."