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 Re:

Bill last Sumner I spent 9 days in Salt Lake City doing prayer walks with a friend of mine who was converted out of Mormonism. While out there we visited with Sandra Tanner who was one of the first people, along with her husband, to expose the evils of Mormonism. They both were converted out of Mormonism. Lord willing, I plan to go back out to Salt Lake City and hope to oray and witness to the Mormons. To answer your question Mormons are welcome into my home. But they will be told in love that they are in an evil system and they must repentand turn to Christ

My aapologies if you were offended at my question. But if I cane into this forum quoting suras or verses out of the Koran I would expect someone to ask the same question of me. My question was asked respectfully, but with a concern understanding that the Bible is the final authority in this forum. If anyone thinks I am out of line for asking such a question then I ask them or the moderators to correct me.

Respectfully,

Blaine or Bearmaster

 2014/2/4 19:40
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3325
Texas

 Re:

Mr. Bear, Thanks for your response, it was perfect.
God Bless!


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Bill

 2014/2/4 19:52Profile









 Re: oh my my my....

Quote:
Pray less if you must.



Chapter and verse?

still full of pride, aint ya?...couldnt say to yourself, "MAYBE, ....I SHOULDNT have posted that...maybe I should just excise it", and ask forgiveness for JOINING in the trashing of Tozer's fervent prayer life that STANDS AS A MODEL for us all.

...and how devoted a wife and what kind of woman would trash talk her deceased husband?....by such a remark?

There are giants in the Faith Jimmy, and what makes them remarkable is their prayer life...men like David Brainerd...you ever read "Life of Brainerd"?....or Frank Bartleman, who wrote the account of Asuza Street?....or John Sung, who many said was the "Wesley" of the Chinese House Church.....ever heard of him? he would ask for pictures from everybody, this was in the late 20's, early 30's in China, the Shangtung Revival....and in the morning, he would spread them out, and pray with tears over them....these men were giants......and finally what did Messiah say Himself about family and following Him?

should I quote the verses, or spare you the pain?

get rid of your pride man. that's my prayer for you.

 2014/2/4 21:24
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
But the issue here is that churches that normally have a meeting at a particular time (because I trust they see value in it), then want to cancel ONLY because there is a football match on! Surely this should make us check where our heart is and what is really important to us.



The thread title in itself is not a value judgment, but it incites our minds to form a value judgment. Did it do that for you? It did for me.

Let’s admit, we have an obsessive need to divide everything into a black or white category: good or evil, righteous or unrighteous. I guess that’s what fuels debate and keeps a forum running. But the outcome of our speck –appraisal role is perpetual division. And we are missing the mark. In fact, it might incite in us a feeling of self-righteousness: “Thank God, I’m not like them!!!!” …. Oops – that’s the log in my own eye!


As I understand, God doesn’t confine himself to our black and white categories. It is God’s nature to bypass all the “righteous” and use the most outlandish sin conditions for his glory.

Can we trust God for that - even in this case of church cancellations?

Or maybe God is quietly working in our hearts - using this very topic to expose our propensity to be speck inspectors.


Diane


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Diane

 2014/2/5 8:31Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

We should take the rose colored glasses off and tone down the celebrity preacher worship. We have such romantic notions about dead preachers, and should stop making them the stuff of myths and legends. Men such as Tozer may have indeed been giants of the faith, but that doesn't mean they were not still flawed men, with personal hang-ups from whose behaviors we can learn much of what to do, and what not to do.

Frankly, to read of how Tozer treated his wife i.e. making her walk miles in the cold to church in Chicago because he refused to buy a car, because he wanted to give half his paycheck back to the church and refuse most wage increases, or refusing to have house guests that he entertained as he did not like people coming over, and leaving her to almost single handedly tend to the raising of their children while he stayed busy at praying, preaching, writing, and consulting... it leaves much to be desired for Tozer as a husband.

I'd rather be more like my father, who while praying a lot less, has loved his wife and family much more warmly, and there isn't a single cross word any of us could say about my father on any level. Nobody but us will remember my father after he is gone one day. But when it comes to being a father and husband, I'd rather emulate the life of my dad rather than the life of Tozer. Such will impact the generations that follow me for years to come, long after men stop reading Tozer.

Quote:
Chapter and verse?



We hear far too many stories about men who were tremendous preachers, but whose families suffered greatly in ways they ought not have suffered. Like the apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians, the married man has divided interests, which is why he suggested that people should prefer being single over being married. Because if you are married, you have legitimate family interests that must be tended to. Paul never said you can forsake being a family man in the name of preaching about Jesus. If you have a wife and kids, those must be tended to deeply, and ministered to on a very practical and emotional level. A level that goes beyond punching the church attendance clock.

If you are married, your wife should be left feeling like Solomon's wife, loved and cherished above all else. She should not have to suffer such feelings of lack of warmth of affection just because her husband is called to preach. Solomon had other wives and concubines and a kingdom and a ministry to run. He was a busy man. But he still made that one woman feel deeply cherished and glowing with loving affection towards him. As a result, we have one of the longest books in the Bible that memorializes this love. Allegorize the book all you want, but Song of Solomon is still primarily about the love of a man for his woman more than it is a book about the love of Christ for his church.

There are great sacrifices she may have to make as a pastors wife, but alienation of affection should not be one of them.

Tozer's wife should serve as a sobering reminder to us all. Love the Lord with all your heart, give yourself over to service to Him. Make great sacrifices. But don't screw up your home life in the name of Jesus. Make your wife feel like a queen. The memory of your wife and children regarding you as husband and father and the legacy you leave behind for them is the ultimate seal of your witness. The souls you preached to and the books you wrote are not.

By all accounts, Tozer's wife was a godly woman. What she said should not be overlooked.

*edited*


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Jimmy H

 2014/2/5 9:38Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Jimmy, I may be in the minority here, but I find your unpopular convictions spot on. There is a legitimate, God-ordained time for all things (except for sin, of course) and if a man has liberty in his spirit to watch a sporting event, or have a glass of wine and dance at a wedding, he can do it with a clear conscience unto the Lord and be free from all condemnation.

This concept is so simple, you would think, but I have found the correct understanding of "Christian liberty" is at the PhD level in God's school. This is partly because of the influence of preachers and teachers who pontificate that the only useful Christian is one whose face is literally buried in the Bible 20 out of 24 hours a day and whose pockets are bulging with index-carded memory verses and who eschews all forms of social recreation and "fun" so as to not hinder the obbligatory span of secret, monastic prayer needed to ward off God's displeasure and keep him from becoming an unprofitable servant.

I used to be one of those specimens. As a result, I was no use to God or man. My family suffered. My poor wife would do all the cooking, bath the kids, do the dishes, put them to bed, fold the laundry -- all while I sat selfishly at the living room table with a cup of tea and my face buried in the book of Ezekiel. Some man of God I was! I had a lot of growing up to do. It took her on the verge of leaving me and taking the children before God could teach me that Jesus would be in the kitchen, helping with the dishes. Jesus would be on the carpet with the toddler, loving on him and being a fun dad and playing Candyland with him before putting him to bed. How blind I was: I actually thought all the forced clock-watching prayer (after all, didn't one preacher say if you didn't pray at least five hours day, you were worthless to God?) and Bible reading (up to that point I was reading through the entire Bible 4 times a year for about 8 years straight) would make me a candidate to be used by God like John Sung or D.L. Moody or Finney. But like Tozer's, my wife (to which God wanted me to be the caretaker and representation of Christ's love while on earth) was miserable, neglected, forlorn. She told me she felt like a single mom. The kids would always go to her to meet their needs and have their questions answered. It was as though I didn't even exist.

Fortunately, we find examples in scripture of this sort of imbalance. Like Samuel, who was so busy prophesying that his own family was neglected and his children went astray. I don't want my children to turn from God because I was too busy in the spiritual to throw a football, play Candyland or take them to Disney World. And I really don't care about what other believers think; I am mature enough to understand Paul's teachings of "whatsoever you do" and "whether you eat or drink" and "do all things" and "all things are allowed but not all expedient" in relation to the pure conscience to not allow myself to come under condemnation through the legalism of others who do not have light on these verses.

If you lose your family, you lose out completely, no matter how spiritual your engagements are. My ministry flourished the moment I stopped trying to be so holy and returned to earth. Prayers became spontaneous and unforced, light flooded in on verses which had remained dark for years, despite all my repetitious laborings and color-coded index cards. Books suddenly poured out of me and my children have a hunger to know about Jesus (and they come to me now with questions!), and my wife now has someone to help carry the household labor and heavy burdens.

I hope when I am gone, my wife and my children will give a testimony that being with daddy was as close to being with Jesus that you can get on earth, though daddy was far from perfect in the flesh. In truth, I want to set a very high standard for my daughter's future husband to match!


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Paul Frederick West

 2014/2/5 12:27Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Thanks Paul.

As some of you know, I am a recent newlywed. In getting married, I had to move across town and changes churches. On the way out the door, I talked to one of the pastors at our church, who knew my heart and devotion to the Lord, and knew how greatly I labored during my single years. On average, I conducted 3 small group bible studies a week for several years, not to mention regular church attendance and being involved in other capacities. I made the most of my singleness. Knowing that after changing churches, it would not be long before I would try my hand at getting involved in the ministry of the church, he gave me some sage like advice that went something like this:

Make the first year of your married life dedicated to nothing but your wife. Show her how deeply and fully you love her, and make that the foundation of your life and marriage. Serve her in everything, and simply be the best husband you can be. After a year, there will be time for ministry, and if you do this, you'll find that your wife will be more than willing to serve alongside of you in whatever ministry capacity you so choose. But always make her your number one priority.

Such, so far, is my plan. And in my entire life, I've never seen somebody so happy and full of joy whenever they look at me. Well, except when my snoring sometimes wakes her up at 1 am. But overally, a great feeling. She deserves such treatment, and I plan on treating her in such a way.

There is a time for everything under the Son.


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Jimmy H

 2014/2/5 12:56Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
There is a time for everything under the Son.


What a wonderful idiom!

It’s worth noting too that even sin has its place in God’s scheme. Consider the prodigal parable. God used the younger brother’s sinful choices to draw him back home. Meanwhile the older brother, the “righteous” brother, missed experiencing the beauty of God’s mercy and grace.

There’s no reason why God can’t uses church cancellations to draw people to Christ – be they the “older brother” types or the “younger brother” types... and even if takes years and even if there is no news release entitled: "God draws souls into the kingdom as a result of cancelled churches".

Here's a thought:
What matters most to you or I: a clean outer cup or a clean inner cup?

Diane



_________________
Diane

 2014/2/5 13:13Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Make the first year of your married life dedicated to nothing but your wife. Show her how deeply and fully you love her, and make that the foundation of your life and marriage. Serve her in everything, and simply be the best husband you can be. After a year, there will be time for ministry, and if you do this, you'll find that your wife will be more than willing to serve alongside of you in whatever ministry capacity you so choose. But always make her your number one priority.


I think this is excellent advice. She really is your number one priority. Christ, of course, is your foundation. Your wife is the support beams you build atop the foundation. Atop these beams will rest the sanctity of your children (if you have any) and everything else spirutally and physically integral to a life of Christian fulfillment. The foundation is unmovable rock, but if the beams are weak, the whole structure will still collapse, including your ministry. Your prayers will be hindered, the children will be out of order, your job will suffer, the enemy will bring severe disaray into your thought life. You know the deal.

Some of the best marital advice I ever heard came from Zac Poonen via the Word of God: "Never let the sun go down on your anger." In other words, don't go to bed angry with each other. If you were the cause of the frustration, humble yourself and ask for her forgiveness before falling asleep. If she was the cause, you still humble yourself and ask her forgiveness for not being more like Jesus in allowing the situation to escalate to where it is now. Do it even though her back may be turned from you in bed and she won't accept it at that moment. Always be the first to humble yourself and ask for forgiveness for not bing more like Jesus in all situations, and God will rectify. It's absolutely 100% unfailingly true. It's the best advice I've ever heard, worth more than once hundred million dollars in counselling sessions.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2014/2/5 13:16Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

If memory serves me correct, I also seem to recall Keith Daniels talking about this in a sermon I heard him preach several years ago. He talked about the strain the ministry was having on he and his wife, and their relationship. Without going into that many details, he talked about how he more or less gave all of that up for a brief period in time in order to save his relationship with his wife. He finally worked out a healthy balance between his devotional life/ministry, and his family life.

Granted, Keith Daniels still sounds like he logs countless hours in his devotional life and ministry. But whatever the case, he found something that worked for both he and his wife. And from what I've gathered is that things sound like they are good between the two again. He exhorted us in the sermon to do whatever it takes to make things work, no matter how hard.

Each relationship is unique. Some people have more needs than others. The apostle Paul said spouses should come together frequently for the sexual needs of one another, unless by agreement, for the purpose of prayer and fasting. In other words, "Your devotional life is not your own, it belongs to your spouse."

I would like to think this spills over into the other areas of our life too, when it comes to the day to day stuff. Most couples probably only need to engage in martial relations a couple times a week to get their sexual needs met. But they probably daily need help with cooking, cleaning, fixing stuff, taking care of the kids, making sure the homework gets done, and things like that... oh yeah, and taking time to say hello to one other and found out how their day went.

If after you've taken care of your wife and family, you have time to minister, then throw all of your extra time into that. You aren't single, and you don't have the right or calling to neglect your spouse and children.

I remember Dr. Charles Stanley talking to a woman in her 50's once. The woman said she felt like when she was in her 20's, that God had called her to be a full time missionary to somewhere in South America. Dr. Stanley was quick to remind her that even if God called her to do that years ago, God was currently calling her to be a mom. Sadly, Dr. Stanley didn't follow his own advice, and neglected his relationship with his wife, who after decades of marriage, divorced him, and for years, he and his son Andy have had a broken relationship. Such has left a blemish on his life and ministry.

I recall Paul Washer in his preaching, once talked about how he introduces himself to strangers. When asked what he does for a living, he said he was a husband. When people would further ask what he did for a living, he said he was a father. When people would further ask what he did for a living, he said when he can, he preaches some.

*edited*


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Jimmy H

 2014/2/5 13:19Profile





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