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KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC
| | Re: | | Quote:
the relationship was made possible by a covering of sin in OT
How was sin covered for in the OT when there were no priests offering sacrifices, such as during the exile?
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Indeed, it was foreordained that God would redeem His people by His blood and that was confirmed after the Fall but obviously that blood needed to be shed at some point in time. The question is, did God regenerate and complete restoration from the Fall before the price was paid?
Indeed, the blood had to be shed at some point in time, but the fact that it was shed before the foundations of the world shows that though it was effective to all generations. The types/shadows/copies were pictures of the heavenly realities. Heavenly realities have always been the same.
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Jimmy H
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 2005/3/17 15:37 | Profile |
KingJimmy
Member
Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC
| | Re: | | Quote:
Or if I might put it another way: Were they and Christ one Spirit?
Moses shared the reproaches of Christ (Heb 11:26). He could only do such if he was one with Christ. Also, the aforementioned passage of Peter mentions that it was the Spirit of [b]Christ[/b] within the Prophets that prophesied....
Also, has anybody noticed that Isaiah 53's Messianic prophecy is in the past tense? Isaiah could testify with us "by His stripes we are healed..."
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Jimmy H
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| 2005/3/17 15:42 | Profile |
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
How was sin covered for in the OT when there were no priests offering sacrifices, such as during the exile?
Because Christ was coming with the price to be paid. It was a done deal in the mind of God.
You fellas will be talking for a long long time before you convince me that the folk under the Old Covenant were actually 'regenerated.'
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Robert Wurtz II
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| 2005/3/17 15:47 | Profile |
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA
| | Re: | | Quote:
Indeed, the blood had to be shed at some point in time, but the fact that it was shed before the foundations of the world shows that though it was effective to all generations.
Just so everyone knows, I am not questioning the fact of regeneration for all, just the when.
To my mind, if the OT saints were regenerate then logically speaking Jesus Christ didn't have to die, they were already fully equipped for heaven if they were regenerated.
In Christ,
Ron
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Ron Halverson
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| 2005/3/17 15:58 | Profile |
KingJimmy
Member
Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC
| | Re: | | RobertW said:
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Because Christ was coming with the price to be paid. It was a done deal in the mind of God.
InTheLight said:
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the relationship was made possible by a covering of sin in OT, not by removal as is the case in the NT.
Just a question... where is the Scripture to justify such a distinction? I'm seeing so far a lot of explinations I've heard in Bible college and read of in commentaries and have heard from the pulpit, but I'm not seeing much Scripture to justify such.
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You fellas will be talking for a long long time before you convince me that the folk under the Old Covenant were actually 'regenerated.'
Christ believed such a concept was evidently taught as shown in John 3, otherwise, why was he surprised at Nicodemus's lack of understanding?
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Jimmy H
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| 2005/3/17 16:01 | Profile |
KingJimmy
Member
Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC
| | Re: | | Quote:
To my mind, if the OT saints were regenerate then logically speaking Jesus Christ didn't have to die, they were already fully equipped for heaven if they were regenerated.
The eternally finished work of Christ secured the ability for OT saints to be regenerated. OT saints could only be regenerated because of the work of Christ accomplished before the foundations of the world.
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Jimmy H
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| 2005/3/17 16:02 | Profile |
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
The eternally finished work of Christ secured the ability for OT saints to be regenerated. OT saints could only be regenerated because of the work of Christ accomplished before the foundations of the world
I understand all that, but there is a great difference between a person being 'saved' or an heir to the righteousness which if of God by faith and a person being a New Creature in Christ.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| 2005/3/17 16:23 | Profile |
KingJimmy
Member
Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC
| | Re: | | Quote:
I understand all that, but there is a great difference between a person being 'saved' or an heir to the righteousness which if of God by faith and a person being a New Creature in Christ.
A lot of problem of what I'm finding in this discussion is this great distinction that is being made in our doctrines regarding salvation. How is it that a person can be justified by faith, be righteous, sanctified, redeemed, be a child of God, and all the other wonderful terms we associate with salvation, yet at the same time they are actually spiritually dead (in regard to the so-called unregenerated OT saints)?
I'm sorry, but you'll have to spend a long time convincing me that is salvation! Such is not a very holistic view of salvation- a holistic view I believe the Scriptures teach from cover to cover.
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Jimmy H
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| 2005/3/17 16:34 | Profile |
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Well guys, we can get into the discussion if you wish, but regeneration is one of the aspects of the New Covenant that make it a 'better' covenant.
As for John 3:3- it is obvious that even the most learned folk in the New Testament era had no idea what He was talking about. That showed how far removed they were prophetically from what God intended to do in Messiah. They saw the end as the Kingdom restored to Israel- Christ taught the end as the Kingdom dwelling within 'you.'
Let me see, where shall we begin?
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Robert Wurtz II
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| 2005/3/17 16:57 | Profile |
RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
How is it that a person can be justified by faith, be righteous, sanctified, redeemed, be a child of God, and all the other wonderful terms we associate with salvation, yet at the same time they are actually spiritually dead (in regard to the so-called unregenerated OT saints)?
So as to not make any assumptions as we are going along; what is your position on Original Sin?
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Robert Wurtz II
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| 2005/3/17 17:06 | Profile |
