I have been a little disturbed at the appearence of new grace message that i see appearing in Asia and Australia (and of course it is seen in the US as well). It is all well and good and appears in many places to be biblical and inspires much freedom from legalistic religion.

I will name names so that you may understand the context of this messgae. Bob George, Andrew Womack, Joseph Prince (Singapore) , Dr James B Richards and others have a particular slant on grace that appears biblical yet...That is how i would describe it. 'It appears biblical yet...' Now i know Spurgeon was a preacher of grace, yet he also did not water down sin, repentance, revival, the cross, sacrifice etc

The real concern I see is a passivity it tends to breed concerning Christian disciplines. I had one brother tell me some time ago that he was debating in his cell group over whether 'believing is a work'. Now this is dangerous ground. Anyone who comes and preaches a strong message of holiness, a call to sacrifice for the gospel, a call to radical discipleship, a call to urgent prayer or revival - would just tend to be preaching a works based Christianity that grace has done away with. I am not saying that these men above teach that or say that but there seems to be a silent implication that that could be so. It is the unwritten theology and the implications of this unwritten theology of silence that disturbs me.

For example one church I know will not call people to prayer - that is works. There are no prayer meetings. To call believers to fervant prayer seems to invite the acusation of 'you are into works based righteousness; that is law and legalistic...' Does anyone see a danger here!

Preachings that have so impacted my life (Wilkerson, Conlon, Ravenhill etal) would be considered far to works orientated and not in tune with the current love-grace trip.

As I said before this new emphasis does not see God as angry at sin, bringing judgment etc etc. Repentence and weeping over sin and having anguish of heart seem to find little place. The call to authentic revival seems to have little place. When they speak of revival there is very little preaching against sin or the bringing of a corrective word. This trend disturbs me.

Again i wasnt to say that there is much good and i have been blessed with many messages (especially Joseph Prince in Singapore) however I am concerned at what is not being said, what is being left out, what is missing in much of this type of 'grace' preaching.

I would value some dialogue and comment on this and have you encountered anything like this. :-(

It seems that grace is being looked at the wrong way. Any actions on your part does not score grace points. Any works that you do are something you get to do because of grace. You should be joyful that you have the privilege to do things. You have the privilege to pray and know God hears you, you have the privilege to give your money to the Gospel, you have the privilege to witness, go to fellowship etc.
Just because you have those privileges doesn't mean that the flesh will always want to do them and it takes discipline and the right focus.
To say that those things are works towards you grace or salvation so you don't have to do them sounds like laziness.

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marvin geddings

"Thou O'Lord has exalted thy word above thy name". The Grace of God simply is that which is given to us freely inorder that we may do his word. I believe with you that it seems that the church has gone into ... like a sleeping mode .Rember- Jesus said when he returns will he find faith on earth?That's a scarey statement.What concerns me is the lack of teaching what we have in the local churches on the teachings of Jesus Christ recorded for us in the gospels.You very seldom hear the message of the cross let alone the plain teachings of Jesus. Discipleship has been replaced by programs like Monday nite football gettogethers and the cross has been replaced a gospel of ease.Lord have mercy!

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D.Miller

I agree - there is a total lack of preaching on the glory of Christ and His glorious Cross. The saints are starving and so much candy, cuteness and cleverness has seemed to replace the Cross, Sacrifice, Eternity, Heaven and Hell. Lord send us true prophets again that will awaken the sleeping giant!

I spent close to about one year underneath one of the teachers you mentioned above...I ate up all of the teaching I could find - tapes, cd's, mp3's, and even a couple conferences close by. At the time, I heard it all and though "Man, this is great! Why hasn't everyone else figured this out!"

But, now that the Lord has brought me out of that, I see some INCREDIBLY dangerous things about the whole message:

1. God will do everything you can find a couple scriptures about, regardless of how you're living. If you sin, that's bad b/c it gives Satan access to you, but it doesn't really stop God

2. Mocking great men of faith from the past for how much they prayed, saying they could have gotten more done if they would have just preached more - the thought here was that God wants people to be saved more than we do, so why should we waste time praying to Him about it? Just obey His word....


When I came out of that teaching, I had never really prayed - and I would be considered a more "exemplary disciple" from the circle I was in. Of course, holiness was a joke...just what Christ imputes to us, and we're in like flint!

I thank God for Ray Comfort...

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Zeke Oosthuis

Although Bonar might well be quoted rightly I think that perhaps this may be taken a little out of the context of his life. Especially when you read in His diaries things like, 'I woke at 6 this morning to seek the lover of my soul.' Clearly a man of prayer.

Also the notion that whatever will be will be (His will is his will and it will come to pass with or without my prayer) is that in your opinion Christian? Or is it fataliam, which is more Islamic? After all we are told on good authority I would say that we have not because we ask not.

This discussion started over a concern for an unwritten theology of silence concerning grace. I was wondering if anyone would like to suggest a meaning for grace?

Every blessing
Kenny

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Zeke Oosthuis

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Mark Nash

Have not had time to read full discussion but just to throw in that Abraham discussed (prayed?) with God about Sodom and bargained for mercy for them and it appears God was open to listening!

Paul

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Paul R Carley