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Aaron Ireland

Jesus requires our full obedience but as we grow in Christ that line changes. In other words as we grow closer to Jesus, our relationship with Him changes and His requirements change as well. What He allowed two or three weeks ago are things He no longer allows but God decides those things that need to be cut off.

My fear is that Matthew 5:48 may be misinterpreted through the lens of the Western world. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The Greek words for perfect here means complete in Christ, not sinless perfection. It's not about trying harder. That's what happened to the holiness movement in the U.S. and it became all about legalism in the early 70s.

Here's the Greek word.

5046 teleios tel'-i-os from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness:--of full age, man, perfect.

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Ed Pugh

Everything that God offers mankind is in the form of a promise. Salvation itself is based on Gods free gift and promise to us. The gift of Christ is now fully available to anyone who will take hold of the promise by faith. Without receiving the promises of God, salvation is totally impossible.

2 Peter 1:3-4 "According as His divine power has given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him that has called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

The design of the promises is to make a person a partaker of God's divine nature. God forms His character in the believer by the provisions of the gospel. God has made ample provision for all holiness and spiritual growth. The promise when received fulfills all the requirements of the law. What the law requires, God freely makes available to every person as a gift. We must truly believe and then receive this gift. There is nothing lacking in God's provision for us to fulfill the law and His requirements. What the law requires, God freely gives to those who take it.

God has provided man with everything that he could possibly need to live a pure and Holy life. He has made everything freely available in the form of promises. Salvation, Jesus, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are all offered to mankind by the promises. The ONLY way to experience being a partaker of God's Holy nature and escape the corruption in the word is from receiving the results of the promises. Without first receiving the results of a promise, holiness is impossible.

For every command of God there is a promise from God that, if received, will fulfill that command. Or another way to put it is, what the law requires, God's grace freely makes available by faith. Only as a person receives the promise by faith and experiences its fulfillment in himself will he truly obey the commands of God. For example, the following command will never be obeyed without first receiving the results of the promise.

OBEDIENCE ONLY BY RECEIVING THE PROMISES

2 Peter 1:3-4 "According as His divine power has given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him that has called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

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Here is an exact Charles Finney quote from The Promise of The Spirit published by Bethany House 1980. Lecture 11. THE PROMISES--No. 1, page 135.
"We never keep the commandments, only as we take hold of the promises. By this I mean that grace alone enables us from the heart, to obey the commandments of God. It is, therefore, only when we lay hold of the promise, by faith, and receive its fulfillment in ourselves, that we really, in heart, obey the commandments of God. For example we never love the Lord our God, according to the first great commandment, only as we lay hold on, and receive the fulfillment of some such promise as this: "I will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live."

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We can take hold of the promises of God and then receive what we need.

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Exact quote from Finney's Systematic Theology -- 1851 Edition Lecture 50
"It is true indeed that God requires of men, especially under the gospel, what they are unable to do directly in their own strength. Or more strictly speaking, he requires them to lay hold on His strength, or to avail themselves of His grace, as the condition of being what he requires them to be. With strict propriety, it cannot be said that in this, or in any case, he requires directly any more than we are able directly to do. The direct requirement in the case under consideration, is to avail ourselves of, or to lay hold upon his strength. This we have power to do. He requires us to lay hold upon his grace and strength, and thereby to rise to a higher knowledge of Himself, and to a consequent higher state of holiness than would be otherwise possible to us. The direct requirement is to believe, or to lay hold upon his strength, or to receive the Holy Spirit, or Christ, who stands at the door, and knocks, and waits for admission. The indirect requirement is to rise to a degree of knowledge of God, and to spiritual attainments that are impossible to us in our own strength. We have ability to obey the direct command directly, and the indirect command indirectly. That is, we are able by virtue of our nature, together with the proffered grace of the Holy Spirit, to comply with all the requirements of God. So that in fact there is no proper inability about it."

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The grace of the gospel offers you, with every command, the strength to obey, and work in you the very thing commanded. Every command implies a corresponding promise, that is, if we are required to do anything by Christ, the very requirement is an implied promise or offer of all the aid we need to make it possible for us to perform it. Indeed, the command in itself is an implied gift of all needed help. The command itself implies the ability to obey it. Every command of God implies this in the strongest manner. It should be remembered that God is perfect in both love and wisdom: therefore He cannot be so unjust as to demand something from us that is impossible for us to perform. THE GRACE OF GOD TURNS THE REQUIREMENT OF THE LAW INTO A PROMISE OF GOD.

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From Christian Perfection by Asa Mahan

The sinner is not required to "make himself clean," or to "make to himself a new heart," in the exercise of his unaided powers, but by application to the blood of Christ, "which cleanses from all sin." The grace which purifies the heart is provided; the fountain, whose waters cleanse from sin, is set open. To this fountain the sinner is brought, and because he may descend into it, and there "wash his garments and make them white," he can fulfill the command, "Wash you, make you clean," "make to yourself a new heart and a new spirit," and "cleanse yourself from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit." The sinner is able to make to himself a "new heart and a new spirit," because he can instantly avail himself of offered grace. He does literally "make to himself a new heart and a new spirit," ONLY when he yields himself up to the influence of that grace. The power to cleanse from sin lies in the blood and grace of Christ; and hence, when the sinner "purifies himself by obeying the truth through the spirit," the glory of his salvation belongs, not to him, but to Christ.

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The grace of God now shows you that there is an entirely new position for you to take. You must take a possible position of simple childlike obedience, day by day, to every command His voice speaks to you through the Spirit. You must take a possible position of simple childlike dependence on and experience of His all-sufficient grace, day by day, for every command He gives.

Thanks for posting that freecd. I love the way Finney puts it!

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Eli Brayley

Let me say this:

We are not suppose to fight sin. :eek:
We are told to flee from it. (2 Timothy 2:22)
For as for my flesh there is nothing good and I cannot hope to defeat sin on my own, otherwise Jesus would not have to had died.

But the question is WHERE do I flee? [b]I flee to Jesus![/b] He equips me with the full armor of God, for each one is a grace, and then and only then do I take my stand against the devils schemes! There is no hope in the fight against sin otherwise.

[i]"With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."[/i] - Mark 10:27

Fighting in Christ,
-Eli

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Eli Brayley

Here is a staggering fact that can throw away everything you may have ever believed. The question, "What shall a man do to please God?" is now answered, not with rules and neat formulas, but with the amazing words, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! You are to reject all your efforts to improve and make yourself respectable before God and rest in the One who is the life within. Such a revelation is devastating because it shows that all you have called spiritual life was actually spiritual death, the dead struggles of self proving again and again its inability to live a life pleasing to God. True spiritual life is not what I am doing for God, but Christ being Himself in me.

The revelation of God’s grace demands a new way of looking and thinking about life. The way of the Law is a life of promises, calling upon self to do and be better, a way characterized by formulas, methods and the how-tos of cold principles, all working to achieve a lifestyle that will allegedly please God. Grace shows us that Christ has done all and is the all of life. It leaves man to accept the fact he is helpless and that God made him that way.

Freecd,

You're really a confused soul aren't you? Where is your precious "Free Will" in that statement? If I cannot "make myself better" then how do I factor into that your idea of Free will? This is the precise mechanism of all Arminianism; Gospel doubletalk! In one argument it's all about man and his free will and that is paramount to one's salvation and remaining "in Christ". In another argument on "Christian perfection" it's now almost sounding (especially in your most recent post) like Calvinism, where man should just "rest in Christ and his promises". Also, your Finny quote earlier on is typical of him. He lowers the bar of "perfection" so weak humans can "enter in" by merits of their own "partial" obedience to the Law (as if one ever could 'enter in' by the law at all).

I really wish you'd make up your mind and just agree with the likes of Paul, Augustine, Luther, Spurgeon, and many other great Christian minds. Put down your volumes of Finney! Why would you want to read the words of a man who shot more holes in the security of Salvation in Christ than anyone ever? He really doesn't even believe in the Gospel if he believes that one minute you can be "in" Christ and the next be "Out". C'mon, really! How thick does one have to be in the skull to extrapulate that out of Paul's teachings? You can't find Paul teaching that ANYWHERE!

Paul said that the Old covenant (The Law) was "set aside for a better one". The Law was not abolished but rather fulfilled in Christ. It still performs the same function (pointing to Christ) but has been set aside as a point of contact to God. Finney (as do many other Arminians) believed that adhereance to the Law is a requirement for the believer. First of all, it was never a requirement for salvation of any kind. It was always, and still is, for the purpose of awakening sin, frustrating mankind, and pointing to the Messiah as remedy for that sin. Finney now robs the believer of the very "rest in Christ" that one should have by suggesting that when someone sins, they are now completely "out of Christ". He himself proves by those words that he is an unbeliever.

Sincerely,
Steve
Picky400

Reading through the post up to this point I'll tell where my understanding of theology has brought me. The free will of man is not bound, in other words it is a free moral agent able to choose between good and evil. In this case God and the sinful nature. I know words and terms are not the precise terms but I am sure you know what I mean.

The exercise of my will in the area of God takes on this form. I make a decision every morning to wake up and spend time with God. Does that decision in itself allow me to become like Jesus, no not directly, and I think this is where the whole thing meets. I exercise my will to seek God, believing that he is rewarder of those that deligently seek him. And in seeking him, the action of the Holy Spirit upon my life makes me become like him and therefore fulfill his commands. Did my will sanctify me, well you could look at it and say yes it did, but in actual fact the only thing my will did was put me in a position for God to do his maximum work upon my heart.

This has been discussed at length somewhere on the forums, but its that will that bridges the gap between a infinitley holy God and a rebellious sinful man.

So tying it into can we obey God, certainly we can because he has said he will do it, and it is impossible for him to lie. Thank God, Thank God, Thank God!!!!!!

I am presuming allot of things about what we believe as a whole so there may be glaring holes in what I have said. ;-)

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Zeke Oosthuis

Well stated Zeke! As long as we realize that it is by the motivation of the Holy Spirit that we can even "want" to seek God. Devoid of the Holy Spirit, flesh will not desire God nor the things of God. So, in essense you exercise your free will to seek God "In Christ", so to speak.

The only thing I would have odds with is that Paul makes it very clear that the will is "bound" or "sold as a slave to sin". Then, when we are saved, we become "bound" to Christ and his will. So our wills are bound to specific contexts depending on our unregenerate or regenerate condition. Scripture is clear about this one thing.

Steve