Hey Redi....Sounds like you and I have been reading the same materials...ha. It would be great if more people did some study.

Some people don't even know that there are 3 major views regarding the Lord's return: Preterist/Historicist/Futurist.

I think it helps to at least know what the 3 are about...then a person can ask God to show them where He wants them to "land." As you know, I landed in the Historicist category, but I wouldn't say I hold to every detail every historicist believes. Blessings on you.

Hey Ginnyrose....Yes, Corrie's experiences and admonition should be carefully pondered and appreciated by the church. We've had it so "cushy" here in N. America that I'm afraid persecution and painful losses may catch many by surprise. If we view our losses and persecution as an ABANDONMENT by God....then many will fall away, I'm afraid. That's one reason why He said for us not to be offended by what He allows to come our way....but to find comfort in our brokenheartedness in His sovereignty and predestination. What wonderful gifts these are. He's trying to prepare us for Heaven after all.

I tried to raise my only daughter (who is almost 25 now) with the possibility that our generation is probably "IT" and that persecution/hardtimes will sooner or later come upon us. I have prayed for a long time not only that the church would be awakened from slumber, but that we would also hold very loosely the things of this world....even our loved ones and dearest friends. After all, He is the greatest Friend of all and wants to know if we really choose Him above all else. Blessings on you Sister....dj

Hey Grant....thnx for sharing that 4th view. I had never heard of that one....guess cuz I have no Lutheran background. But I DO love Luther and just about everything he ever wrote blesses me. :)

Yes, I think it is possible that aspects of all 4 views can be at work simultaneously. And I can believe that Time can be expressed in a circular/repetitive fashion.

Remember Ezekiel's WHEELS? I sometimes wonder if the wheels inside the wheels aren't similar to the wheels/gears inside of a watch or clock. Some wheels are big...some medium-sized...and some are small. But they are all attached and somehow working off each other....does that make sense?

With that picture in mind, I also wonder if the calendars that God set in motion for the universe and for the earth/planets/stars/sun/moon are perhaps finishing up now with our having reached 6,000 years for mankind. Not sure. But all of it is certainly fascinating.

Here's a bit of important "trivia" (for me) from Paul's Shipwreck story (Acts 27 and 28) if anyone wants to check it out. I discovered several years back that the numbers mentioned in Scripture can often have DOUBLE MEANING.

One example:

Acts 27:28---20 fathoms and 15 fathoms added makes 35. Then 35 times 49 years (a Jubilee) makes 1,715 years. Double that number and you have a very important number: 3,430 years. Why is 3,430 years important? It is the exact length of 70 Jubilees. If 1415 BC is the correct date for the Israelites leaving Egypt or actually crossing over the Jordan into Canaan....then 3,430 yrs. from that event brings us down thru history to 2016.

Second example:

Genesis 6:3---"but his days shall yet be 120 years." 120 Jubilees equals 6,000 years.

"So teach us to NUMBER our days that we may get us a heart of wisdom." Psalm 90:12

I hope I haven't ventured too far off the main topic of Corrie's Tribulation and Rapture talk. But the above math just keeps reminding me that He is even at the door. That being said, it seems appropriate that the church prepare herself for what lies ahead....but especially prepare her heart for Him.

Blessings.....dj

Hey DJ,

If you want I can send you a link to an article that goes into greater detail about all four, and how they were all viewed/understood during second temple period Judaism. I think it might be something that could really strike your interest. Let me know.

-Grant

Staff,
If you examine your reply, you have to see a couple of things:
1.) In the verses which speak of Lot and Noah's Day being like His Second Coming, we see that "THE WORLD" is going about marrying, giving in marriage, eating, a drinking, buying, and selling, etc. There is no Biblical proof that this will be the daily experiences of "THE BRIDE OF CHRIST". She will be "hidden away in the wilderness for a time, times, and half a time (3.5 years)", and then handed over to the "Dragon, who cometh upon the earth and the bride with great fury, knowing he hath but a short time" for another 3.5 years. The world, once it bows the knee to the Anti-Christ, which it will (who refused to bow to King Darius, but Daniel?), will live in what appears to be a relative (though unreality) "peace". It's the Bride who will be without the ability to buy or sell, hiding in caves, destitute, running for the lives, and losing their heads (literally). There is relative peace in countries where there is severe persecution today for the masses as long as they submit to Communism, Islam, etc., but only severe trial, persecution, and martyrdom for the Bride of Christ who will not bow the knee.
2.) You can see the handiwork of types and shadows of enduring the great tribulation throughout scripture from the beginning of the OT to the end of the NT. If you don't see it, and you don't agree with that view, that's fine. However, to state that the view of those who do is "extra biblical" or "unbiblical" or whatever should lend your mind/mouth to wisdom. You see, you start out telling everyone that "they need to stick with the Bible", and then you say "they are wrong" (& you are right). But, in love, you don't quote a single scripture, nor build a biblical basis whatsoever. So you do the very thing you accuse others of doing. No biggie. It matters not to me if you don't see it and don't want to, but don't tell everyone else they are wrong for not laying out a "line by line, precept by precept", scriptural exegesis building the case for the view, and then do the exact same thing, by telling everyone else they are wrong, and then not building your case by scripture as well.
If you disagree, so be it. But you can't build a solid case for pre trib in scripture. It uses a few scriptures taken out of their full context, and they arent that strong a case even then. Again, when I got born again, studied the Word of God front to back Day and night for almost two years straight, and someone shared with me the "Pre-Trib" view; I was like "where in God's Word do they get that idea?" A person would never come to that conclusion with God's Word alone. It's taught by men. If you disagree, that's fine. But before you accuse others of being "wrong" because they are "not scriptural", lay out your case by the scriptures for examination. I'd be curious what scriptures you base a pre-trib rapture on. I'd love to discuss it with you as well. Every time we dig into the scriptures like Bereans, we learn more of the riches of their content/meaning/application/context/etc.
God Bless,
Jeff

Hi Jeffmar,
In the examples of Lot and Noah both Lot and Noah are part of both communities and not in any way apart except that they were Godly.So what is clearly said in both examples is that all the christians and the non christians will be together buying,selling etc.
points on that
1.The Judgement comes straight away after lot is taken out and straight away when the Door is closed on the Ark.Both Lot and Noah were in good health and not destitute running from cave to cave etc although they may have been under moderate persecution.If we are been hid in the wilderness then one of Jesus main points will be null and void which is that Judgement comes straight away no delay after Gods people are taken out for it says "until the day". And if they are taken out,what are they taken out of?
2.Both Lot and Noah were not restricted in buying or selling etc
3.All the OT types and Shadows point to a widespread revival in the first 3.5yrs of the tribulation.The types in the O/T and the Gospels is what I base my view on.
4.If bride of Christ is running from cave to cave they will be of no use as a witness as they are not living in the world where the unsaved people are.
5.This scripture of lot and noah is in context just before the Lord comes everything in the world will be normal including Christians living with non christians.Indeed the "one taken ,one left" scriptures would also although it is not nessacary to support the view that christians are not restricted at this stage and living with unsaved people.


What I am saying is wrong is that (some) post tribulation believers are openly calling brother and sister pre tribulation believers false teachers and heretical on an issue that good christian preachers are divided on.

Their is a problem with christians getting ready for something that is not going to happen.Christians should be getting ready for a world wide revival not getting ready for caves and hiding in my opinion.
Their will always be tribulation somewhere,persecution somewhere but the "the great tribulation"is a unique time and Corrie ten boom didnt understand this.
I dont hold a pretrib view but think the rapture will happen before the second half of the 7yrs which in reality is "the great tribulation".A time of blessing followed by a time of Judgement,A time of plenty and a time of famine.

Thank you for your reply and God bless all fellow brother and sisters in Christ who believe in his coming and lets not call each others false teachers on this issue,
Thanks Staff

Hey Grant....Yes, I would enjoy reading the article you mentioned.

Before I dedicated myself to study the various views, I used to get confused with all the symbology of Daniel/Revelation and believed that I would never be able to understand all that stuff.

But after having put in significant time into the research and now knowing WHERE those views came from and WHY they were created, it all makes sense now. After that, I knew exactly where I wanted to take my stand.

I think it helps to put the major views out there for people to read so they can get a handle on it. It's really not as hard to understand Daniel and Revelation as we have been told.

I heard a pastor once say that he didn't know if the Lord would return pre-mid-or-post-trib so he had decided to be pan-trib....cuz he was sure it would all pan out in the end.

Forgive me, but I think that pastor should be embarrassed and ashamed of himself. God requires all of us to study and show ourselves approved.....why not every pastor?

I understand that not everybody likes to read or study...but there are some excellent websites that summarize Endtimes views....and that is a good starting place for people who want to understand.

I hope people will take a look at your link and go find some links of their own as well. Just google: preterist historicist futurist summary (or something similar to that) and one should be able to easily get started.

Blessings on all.....dj