verry interesting thread

And such rich conversation,..I might add !

And thank you,IssacharSon.

A blessing,..and, I too, thank you Bro, Tom for the information and for the sharing of your ministries and travels.

Blessings,
elizabeth

BrotherTom,

I read Wathcman Nee's essay on "The Fall" last night. and he alludes to the "soulish" Christian in the same way DB describes "cheap grace" in "The Cost...".

He develops this hierarchical relationship among the tripartite inner structure of man (Spirit, soul, body). And he says that God works to develop us from the inside out, whilst the enemy, vice versa.

What really gets me about Watchman Nee's essay on the Fall is this:

He blames "the intellect" as the "chief cause of the Fall".

Yet, he relies on the very stewardship of his "intellect" to express what is in his Spirit. He was an intellectual if there ever was one. Though he claims to have submitted it to his Spirit.

But the "intellect" as the "chief cause of the Fall". C'mon! If this has any truth to it, then, shame on us, yeah!

I do not worship the intellect anymore (I used to as Abram worshipped the "Moon gods"). Yet, it is important. DOes your intellect cause you to "Fall", BrotherTom?

Do you think the intellect has such a powerful role in our "Fall"? If so, how do we renounce it or subdue it?

If you have the time, I'd like to know what you think about this (even if you don't think about it - if you did, what would you think?).

LOve-in-Christ,

KP

Concerning Watchman Nee, and his statement that intellect is/was the "Chief cause of the fall.

IssacharSon writes, addressed to me:
"Yet, he [ Watchman Nee] relies on the very stewardship of his "intellect" to express what is in his Spirit. He was an intellectual if there ever was one. Though he claims to have submitted it to his Spirit.

But the "intellect" as the "chief cause of the Fall". C'mon! If this has any truth to it, then, shame on us, yeah!

I do not worship the intellect anymore (I used to as Abram worshipped the "Moon gods"). Yet, it is important. DOes your intellect cause you to "Fall", BrotherTom?

Do you think the intellect has such a powerful role in our "Fall"? If so, how do we renounce it or subdue it?

If you have the time, I'd like to know what you think about it." [ this issue.]......________.........I.S.

I respond to IS; Brothertom writes;

"Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee!; Love her!, and she shall keep thee.

Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her."

With all of your getting; GET UNDERSTANDING! Wisdom, Spiritual Insight and Understanding all must be channeled through our minds, and in this sense, the understanding of of it must be grasped by the intellect; computed and communicated so to speak.

Let me ask you this, How does your intellect grasp such things as the Fear of the Lord? and Peace, or the ability to unite with Agape Love?

In a pure sense, it cannot, for these are attributes of the Spirit world, but all of these can AND SHOULD be expressed here in our mortal world, and must be communicated, and we must maneuver our lives in such a way as to adhere to the good, and jump the puddles; such as foolishness, ignorance, dogma or simple immaturity. How can a man teach the Word, if he does not Understand the Word?

We are all frail, and muddied up in our thinking, our intellect, somewhat, ALL OF US, and each one of us have fallen, to a degree or another, to trusting in our intellect, and watching it betray wisdom for you...many times; who has not?

I like a famous word of faith fellow who called it with rhyme; "STINKIN' THINKIN'"..[.though he used it to adhere to WOF heretical ideas...] and there is such a thing as "putting on the mind of Christ".......

Revelation must be expressed and communicated through the [ impaired, to Heavenly standards, anyway, ] intellects of mere men. When I consider my Earthly heroes of the faith with great minds, I think of Paul the Apostle. Men have spent their entire lives attempting to attain to his spiritual understanding, and he possessed the most keen of intellects ever.

God chose a vehicle in Paul to carry his sufferings and glory, while adorning him with such a mind to not only live it, but to communicate it, both in power, and in words that conveyed the Understanding of it.

Consider the collosal works of Romans and Hebrews: Perfect enough to be considered Canon, the absolute Word of God to man. Wow! and ...did he think? Did he meditate? Did God anoint his intellect? Absolutely...and I think much the same way as holy prophecy is given...like an utterance.

I think Nee was pointing at Lucifer's thinking when he assessed the Fall situation in this sense, not that the intellect was a useless commodity that we, as men, must deny...and overemphasized the reliance on it, as all of the world does, in it's rebellious pride.

We subdue it, by conforming our minds to the living image of the Mind of Christ Himself, and that by death; dying to us to live to him; DAILY. When pride arises in my spirit, and floats to my mind, and ?I think I am all of that....I SEE IT!...and then confess to God as quick as I can my SIN..."Father forgive me of that wicked and proud thought! See me covered by the blood of Jesus , and forgive and cleanse me......And he does, and then, the ultimate Thinker; THE PEACE OF GOD.

HOW DO WE THINK, AND THINK DEEP?

"Be careful [ WORRISOME ] for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, THINK ON THESE things."

As a servant/elder to the body of Christ, and a minister of the Gospel, we must be equipped to address a manifold of human issues and ideas, and with holiness and Peace as our sail, God's conviction will endorse our minds with the right choice every time.

In all of these, the intellect must be engaged to a degree, but surely, smart or eloquent men are often God's last choice. He chose the foolish, and ignorant and unlearned nincompoops, like me and you and beloved Peter, the great Apostle, who previously fished for money.

There is also a great lie that condemns most of the Western world; TO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING IS TO BECOME IT.

Often, theology is that way. God dwells in our heart, not in our intellect. Try to concentrate as hard as you can, and construct a plan to raise someone from the dead using your intellect, and throw in Albert Einstien too, and you will still have a full grave.

Dear KP, I'm posting the link of my favorite website. I've posted this website since I've been on the Net these past 10 yrs.

Here's some pages that may interest you. Be sure to click all of the links as well.

http://www.crossroad.to/Persecution/Bonhoffer.html

_________________
Sreeram

Jesus-Is-God,

Thank you for this link! Now I know that I am not going crazy.

Love-in-Christ,

KP

But, if something is considered a "chief cause" of man's Fall, then my instinct is to handle it with trembling hands.

I love what BrotherTom said in reminding me about "The Mind of Christ" as the goal of one's intellect. But the thing in and of itself, that is "intellect" has a deeper relation to man's deception, than we "know".

I do not disagree with Nee in that we should be very, very, very suspicious of the intellect. There is something about it which leads us to disobey God (and therefore, Fall).

Maybe the "intellect" should be "[out]ellect". There is an inwardness about intellect which makes it dangerous. Anything which operates independent of God is dangerous. And maybe the intellect is at higher risk for this.

The worst influence Plato had on western culture was to elevate the intellect above the spirit. It is really no different than the appetite (flesh) in its potential to cause entrapment.

(Still considering all of this)

Love-in-Christ,

KP

KP, what you wrote in this last post is a masterpiece :)

and I fully agree.

Thank you!!

BrotherTom wrote:

"Because they were HUNTED! I call them the "Hunted Church."..We cannot fathom this here."

Yes, we can fathom this. The "Hunted Church" is what the followers of Christ are in this world, BrotherTom.

Regarding the intellect: Spurgeon assured me in his sermon on Psalm 127:2 entitled, "The Peculiar Sleep of the Beloved" on the fate on the intellect when he said:

"I am persuaded, that as God may have washed your hearts, He will wash your brains before you enter Heaven"

Oh, happy day!

But, you know BrotherTom? Before I learned about your experiences with Nee, something told me that you were the right person to consult.

Your writings reveal an authority which you have reluctantly acquired. An authority which God grants through incredible suffering, not the intellect (internal election - huh! what a hoax!).

This is how the Lord has taught me to whom I should listen (not follow - there is only One to follow - "cedo nulli") - I listen to those who suffer. I enjoy listening to you. I am only a son and a son is blessed with good hearing.

You struck a chord with me once when I ignorantly revealed my poor sleep life. But, you don't sleep either. Your sleep is peculiar, as Spurgeon preached.

The wealth of suffering and experience you have had, "For so He gives His beloved sleep". For His beloved, everything is a gift, even sleep.

I apologize for the tangent, meant no harm by it. It only came about because of Spurgeon's sermon.

Love-in-Christ,

KP