I am thru argueing nothing Has came from this thread but argument. Old Joe you mocked at my testomoney what small portion I gave, Thus discreaditing any attempt to be benifical to some one intrapped in sin, holding on to dual nature theolgy, That in its self reveals alot.
If You want your Catholic Doctrines your Traditions of men so have them. You have all of the Theolgy Books most of the Commentaries on your side, You have a dying sinning Church that stands right behind you.

I Shake the Dust from my feet

The quote from Hebrews is only written in that one particular way in the King James, and you've taken it out of context to fit your argument. EVERY other version has it worded entirely differently, and even the KJV doesn't imply what you've said if read in context of the chapter. Even if you do a word for word study in the Greek it will not come out to say what you've implied that it says. It's simply not a correct supposition based on the context. And I don't think anyone, at least what I've read so far, is condemning literal, physical flesh. It's the definition of "flesh" that's getting a little obscured maybe. We're (or at least I'm) referring to a fallen "nature". Not literal "skin and bones" flesh. We're not saying he came in a different type of flesh, we're saying he came in a different type of nature.

And when presenting your case, you cannot continue to use straw man arguments. Just because Augustine ALSO believed in original sin, does not mean that everyone else who does suddenly shares all of his views and comes to all of his conclusions. On original sin he was right. On most of his other conclusions he was all kinds of wrong. Just because a heretical person defines a truth, it doesn't mean that if you agree with that person on one truth you automatically join hands with them in all the rest of their heresies.

Similar to the Trinity. It's clearly taught in the Bible, especially if you're familiar with the cultural back round, original languages, and context (but is quite provable in English even if one doesn't), but there is no phrase in the Bible that directly states "There is a Trinity." The Jehovah's Witnesses will do the same cut and paste job saying things like, "The word 'Trinity' was invented by the Council of Nicea, and actually has no basis in the Word of God. You essentially are just believing a Catholic lie."

Straw man. We don't want to be guilty of the same careless manner of argumentation and discussion.

Just saying.

"Brenda, obviously you and me will never agree on this issue..."

You are right ginnyrose. I have spoken to many whip them into shape folk and none of them listened.

A child is born with an overriding aim to please his parents not to rebel. It is when the childs spirit is injured or broken by neglect or disrespect for him as a person, that mutiny develops even in a very young child. Beause of my child rearing practise particulary on one of my children they stood out as sweet and compliant and they did not even have those `terrible twos` which are supposed to be inevitable. On the contrary I saw those around me battling with their children and blaming original sin. Go to any `undeveloped` country where people have time for their youngsters and keep them near even sleeping with them and you see the difference in the sweet nature of the children.

Our children must fit into modern life and become damaged in the processand instead of facing the truth, we put the blame somewhere else. Just because someone grows up law abiding does not mean they have dont have crushed spirits. It shows up easily when you look for love in the church.

A body has God prepared for Him.

Quote:
"""IF Christ came in a different flesh(SARX!) than What we are born with, than you explain to me How HEBREWS 4:15 can be true????"""

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Marys seed is the human portion of Jesus Christ in the flesh, which has no sin in it. The egg of Mary was given life by the incorruptable Seed of the Father by the Holy Spirit come upon her. This is the God portion of Jesus Christ, with the Spirit of God His Father, and the nature of God His Father. No seed from Adam through Joseph.

Hebrews 10:4-9 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

The Flesh of Jesus had not the sin of Adam in it. for the Seed in Mary was God Seed. Perfect Body, Perfect Spirit, Perfect God nature, but all man in the Flesh also. Jesus took away the first and established the second, which was the Spotless Lamb of God, went to the Cross to pay the price that God could bring His elect children into His kingdom and to live in His House that Jesus is preparing for those the Father has given Him.

Hebrews 4:14-16 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Now we see that Heb 4:15 is perfect in truth, Jesus Christ all man and all God, in the body of flesh that was prepared for Him that He could say, "I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."

We are born again into the Second, by the incorruptable Seed also, making us sons' of God.

1 Peter 1:22-25 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Born again by the living Word Jesus Christ Himself in us, inheriting the, "second He has established for us", taking away the Law and making Grace through faith our means of salvation by the Lamb slain, even from the foundation of the world.

Re 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


In Christ: Phillip

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Phillip

ginnyrose wrote:They did not learn disobedience from me or my husband: they were born to do so when their will conflicted with ours. A child is born with a will that needs training to submit to authority.

Scripture is clear in that one is to train up a child the way he should go. It also gives clear instructions that it may need reinforcement by the use of the "rod".

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I agree completely with you on this.

God Bless
mj

Hi Old Joe,

You requoted vs 20 of Ezekiel 18 made your statement below

"“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

"Infants die, according to the above verse what is the cause?"

If this what you are saying is so; in vs 20

"The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity;"

The logic would be that God is going to hold us accountable for Adam's sin in the garden but not hold us accountable to our fathers sin as we read in verse 20?

Russ

Good point, rnieman.

I have been enjoying this treatise on SARX, the FLESH and SELF.

Christ At Work In You
www.christinyou.net/pdfs/ChristatWorkinYou.pdf

And a word study of Nature and Natural
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/nature.html

Pilgrim

After posting this I got to thinking more about children and their nature...

You get a group of say, 2 year olds or older, together. Put some toys in the middle of the floor and what happens? Most will pick up a toy to play with it. And enjoy it. Before too long, an aggressive one will along a grab the toy away from the child playing with it. He/she wants it! and no matter whether you were done with it or not! And a cry, a howl or a fight will ensue. Why?

A parent could have isolated their child from the others so no fight will happen. In doing so you are aware of its nature to selfishness and work to protect it from being exercised. However, in doing so, the child will not learn to share, he will not learn to wait until the other is done playing. He requires parental intervention and discipline.

Selfishness resides in the heart of a child. Where did it come from?

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Sandra Miller

To all of you who do NOT believe in original sin, let me ask you a question:

Why was it necessary for Jesus to be born of a virgin? Or do you even think it was necessary?