A legalist may want faithless law, and a licentious may want lawless faith, but the only kind the Bible speaks of is the oxymoron one

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Fifi

Alive-to-God,


The argument I was trying to make is accumulative in nature. That means, if we don't agree on point 1, I can not proceed to point 2 and that seems to be the case.

I was going to suggest that all who are interested would read Romans about 10 times or so without any commentaries or helping materials and pray the Lord would open our understanding. It will only take about a week.

What do you think.

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Fifi

Hi UntoBabes,

Possibly you're making more work for yourself than necessary. I'm familiar with the content of Romans, and the exercise you're proposing seems unnecessary (imho).

In particular, I asked the question of you, because there is no need for us to use guesswork with each other, when plain speech will work wonderfully for communication ;-)

As a reminder from p9, your question:

Wow, such a long thread that I only read the first and the last parts.
I've been thinking about this subject as well and want to organize my thoughts (even though I should be doing my university homework :)

I actually lie much more to the free will part and think that Armenians especially John Wesley knew more of what they were talking about.
Our church empahsizes free will as well.
You'll have to stick with me till the end cause I'm not actually leaning to one side.
I was more on the free will side because I saw so many christians using God's will for everything that happened. If they get into a good university, oh god led me there. Oh god gave me such a good spouse, God lead me to this place and so on. Such religiousness, yet these brothers would not really think about what REALLY was God's will, for exammple to give our all to Him as a blank page as a living sacrifice, to be always saying yes to his Great commision. So I was against all the religious god's will predestionation abusing that was going on in the church.
So I was sort of more on the free will side.
But in our church, which emphasis free will (more so on the unconscint level) the negative side effects were that we began to see ourselves as having done the "right" choice that was in line with the word of God rather than really believing that it was God who was working and leading us!
SO then every decision was checked with the bible and then made in line with the Bible, but my decision had so much to do with the outcome of events in the future, that there was great pressure. It felt like I was responsible for the right outcome by deciding "correctly" and if I did choose according to Gods word, I would feel like it was me who obeyed instead of God who lead. More ephasis, thus, was put on me instead of God.

One thing that christians struggle with is the feeling of inadaquetness. I'm not enough for GOds services. Is really leading me? Or maybe I'm not enough.

THus the idea that I was chosen by God, the confidence of being his one and only adopted son began to go down...

In other words, we weren't really obeying GOd, just making the right decisions...

Anyway.. So these days, I'm really think that there is a mix of these two. God is leading! He has a plan! He has destined us. But we have do decide "combine the word with faith"

In the end it is actually God who has chosen us. I have replied to his invitation. It is the will of these two parties that meet.

But unto unbelievers..
Who haven't been predestined..
I don't believe that.
I believe that we are to preach the gospel,
and that some respond and some don't by their free will.

I don't think that Calvin meant when he said we have been predestined, to refer to unblievers.
It's actually when you look back at your life and you can say.. Wow.. GOd has lead me towards Him! But this is regarding my life. not for an unbeliever.
He isn't destined for hell (by Gods will) cause God wants everybody to be saved.

John wesley in the end just knew that he had to preach to everyone and give them a chance to reply to the God's calling to these people.

God calls.. and we obey.
The rest, he deals with.
He calls us by his message of the gospel.. and we reply with our free will..

A word about the will.



(I) Man ‘s will to chose God is not a liberal idea. While in the world’s economy to be Pro-choice is to demand human rights. In this case: the right of the woman over her own body to aboard her baby. We find the biblical idea of the will quite the opposite.


Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked TURN FROM his way and LIVE: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Choosing God is a way of life and not of death.




(II) Choosing God is not only for the righteous. The Bible is so clear on this point.

The man who divorced his wife, committed a murder, robbed the bank reaches a breaking point in his life crying in his prison cell. Where are you God? Please save me if you exist. Overwhelmed by his depravity, yet able to make the cry of faith, indeed will not be turned down by God, but his cry will be heard.

It is his very depravity that lead him to make that cry, it his very desperation, it is the brokenness of his will that gave rise to another kind of will. The will to seek God.



Psalm 107 is a perfect illustration of that truth.


(1) In verses 4,5 we see God pursuing man through affliction.


4They wandered in the wilderness in a desert region;
They did not find a way to an inhabited city.
5They were hungry and thirsty;
Their soul fainted within them.



(2) In verse 6a we see man’s cry for salvation.

6Then they cried out to the LORD in their trouble;



(3) In verses 6b,7 we see God’s response to their cry by saving them.


He delivered them out of their distresses.
7He led them also by a straight way,
To go to an inhabited city.



(4) In verse 8,9 we see man praising God for salvation


8Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
9For he satisfies the longing soul, and fills the hungry soul with goodness.




This scene repeats itself throughout the whole Psalm.

Again:


(1) In verses 10-12 we see God pursuing man through affliction which were cause by man’ sin against God.


10Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron;
11Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High:
12Therefore he brought down their heart with labors; they fell down, and there was none to help.




(2) In verse 13a we see man’s cry for salvation.

13Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble,




(3) In verses 13b, 14 we see God’s response to their cry by saving them.


and he saved them out of their distresses.
14He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder.




(4) In verse 15,16 we see man praising God for salvation.


15Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
16For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder.



Again:



(1) In verses 17,18 we see God pursuing man through affliction which were cause by man’ sin against God.


17Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted.
18Their soul abhors all manner of meat; and they draw near unto the gates of death.



(2) In verse 19a we see man’s cry for salvation.


19Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble,



(3) In verses 19b,20 we see God’s response to their cry by saving them.


and he saves them out of their distresses.
20He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.




(4) In verse 21,22 we see man praising God for salvation.


21Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
22And let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare his works with rejoicing.




Again:



(1) In verses 25-27 we see God pursuing man through affliction which were cause by man’ sin against God.


25For he commands, and raises the stormy wind, which lifts up the waves thereof.
26They mount up to the heaven, they go down again to the depths: their soul is melted because of trouble.
27They reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man, and are at their wit's end.




(2) In verse 28a we see man’s cry for salvation.


28Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble,




(3) In verses 28b-30 we see God’s response to their cry by saving them.


and he brings them out of their distresses.
29He makes the storm a calm, so that the waves thereof are still.
30Then are they glad because they be quiet; so he brings them unto their desired haven.




(4) In verse 31,32 we see man praising God for salvation.


31Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
32Let them exalt him also in the congregation of the people, and praise him in the assembly of the elders.




The lesson of the psalm:



That the righteous may see this, and rejoice: and all iniquity shall stop her mouth.

Whoso is wise will observe these things, and shall understand the mercies of the LORD.



Now ask this,

When man is his misery which is caused by his own sin cry unto the Lord.
Is this the cry of free will, or the cry of end of the will.


I think it is both. It is free in the sense that God does not force man to make the cry. Although God will use judgment upon man to compel him to make the cry, He certainly does not coerce it, for we know that some will not make that cry even when judged by God.
In Revelations 9: 20 we see man in his highest degree of depravity, manifested in hatred, and rebellion towards God that he will not make that cry no matter the pain, misery, and torment that God uses to get him to repent.


Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

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Fifi

After reading your post i will beg your indulgence a little as i feel your exegesis of the 107th psalm is very catastrophically misleading.

1. The psalms as you know are allegorical and we have to understand them in proper context.

a:) The people crying out to the lord in the psalm are obviously his elected people who were in distress at the hand of their foes which was brought about by the continual disobedience of the children of Israel. There is no presidence for "Man" in the 107 psalm crying out as being a reference to humanity. "Man" in this context was isreal who where in distress.

b:) 11 for they had rebelled against the words of God
and despised the counsel of the Most High.

12 So he subjected them to bitter labor;
they stumbled, and there was no one to help.

13 Then they cried to the LORD in their trouble,
and he saved them from their distress.

as i re-iterate it was Israel in distress caused by disobedience


c:) The 107 psalm is not talking about salvation. It is talking about God "saving" or delivering them (Israel) from the hands of their oppressor and troubles.

d:) The Ezekiel verse you quoted was also refering to Israel and not to humanity.

Please consider prayer before you post such ideas as these sort of thinking is not Holy spirit Inspired exegesis. We should carefully study and pray over scripture.

God Bless

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Fifi