| Poster | Thread | learn
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geraldine
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|  2008/8/1 4:06 | Profile | learn
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Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613
| | Re: | | Quote:
theopenlife wrote:
Learn, you wrote,
Quote:
I tend to believe the 'elect people' are those that earnestly seek God and God saved through grace by faith.
I believe the verse says, "By grace, through faith."
I agree, the elect are those who earnestly seek God. But I believe further that their seeking resulted from election to grace, rather than being the cause of it.
openlife
Yes, I made a mistake. It should be by grace through faith. Thanks for pointing it out.
I tend not to agree with your views. I think that the part that you may have chosen to support your views are Romans 9 and Matthew 22:14
However, for me it does not necessarily mean that God chose the people without giving a choice whether to seek them. I've said to myself before that the bible is a stumbling block to those that do not seek him earnestly while it is like fresh water and a living guide (to show, encourage, warn and assure) to those that does. Those that do not seek him earnestly may choose to quit as they feel despaired with those verses.
If there are so many verses and clear ones at that asking people to seek Him and no verse on how God choses His elect, then we should always follow the clear and many verses.
Romans 9 to me is just a stumbling block. I do not know how to explain it properly unless I want to spend huge amounts of time thinking how to explain it(its like the discussion on how people argue that 'salvation cannot be lost' on certain verses that seem to imply it can be lost). Also maybe the most damaging is Roman 9:17 where it says God raised Pharaoh up for this very purpose. Now, I don't know greek but how I can reconcile this is that the word 'raised' may be that Pharaoh is given all these power and position of authority (aka'raised')
Matthew 22:14 on 'for many are invited, but few are chosen', it does not also say how God chose His people. To me, to read that it means God chose His people without giving people a chance, then I just find it hard to reconcile with so many other verses in the bible asking us to seek Him, for example Isaiah 55, 56.
Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon
I'll repeat this
If there are so many verses and clear ones at that asking people to seek Him and no verse on how God choses His elect, then we should always follow the clear and many verses.
If God has indeed chosen his people without giving people a choice of whether to come to Him, then practically everybody (inclusive of those that believe the above) has preached a 'partially true gospel' because practically nobody will say that 'you may not be chosen by God in their message when they say to come to God for salvation'. And I for one don't think that I can have peace knowing that when I tell others about the gospel, I'm not telling the full truth and witholding something important. I don't think there is anywhere in the bible that mention for us to tell a 'partially true gospel'. By doing so, I believe we are sinning as although our intentions are good (ie not to frighten people away), we are still consciously telling a partial truth. And could it be that partial truth is a lie in God's eye? And I also don't recall the gospel mentioning that 'God choses people without regards to whether they want to be saved or not'
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geraldine
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| | 2008/8/1 5:03 | Profile |
| | Re: The whosoever that believeth | | Jesus will never let me go, Praise His name.
He knows me, knows my heart, and He loves me, warts, flaws and all.
"come to Me", He says.
Oh thank You Jesus!!!
mercy, You had mercy on me Jesus.
I owe You my life, it is Yours. |
| | 2008/8/1 10:04 | | rbanks
Member
Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330
| | Re: | | Brother learn thanks again for posting on this thread. I am glad you joined SI and I have been blessed by reading your posts. I recently joined myself, because I wanted to join with others concerning genuine revival and also for development in my spiritual walk.
Writing is a weakness for me but this site is helping. I want to be able to communicate better in writing. Reading posts on this site has been both challenging and refreshing. I am learning from others on here and seeing things in a different light. I believe the more we understand where others are coming from, the less judgmental we are. I don't want to be guilty of judging a matter before I have really heard it. I pray to be more sensitive to the Spirit of God and the need of others.
I have taken a quote from your post that I very much agree with you, that many people stumble over and lose a lot of freedom in witnessing their faith to others believing that all can be saved and that God desires to save them.
Quote:
learn wrote:
Romans 9 to me is just a stumbling block. I do not know how to explain it properly unless I want to spend huge amounts of time thinking how to explain it(its like the discussion on how people argue that 'salvation cannot be lost' on certain verses that seem to imply it can be lost). Also maybe the most damaging is Roman 9:17 where it says God raised Pharaoh up for this very purpose. Now, I don't know greek but how I can reconcile this is that the word 'raised' may be that Pharaoh is given all these power and position of authority (aka'raised')
Here is a quote from an article that TJ gave me which I very much appreciated.
Romans 9, 10, 11 are the deepest passages in the Scriptures on the sovereignty of God. John 6:37 gives us sovereignty and freewill in one passage. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." 1 Timothy 2:4, "Who will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth." I used to read that and say God would elect to have all saved. Companion to that verse is 2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Some say everywhere we read the word "all", we should substitute the word "elect". These would have 2 Peter 3:9 read, "And God is longsuffering to usward [that means elect] not willing that any should perish [that means elect] that all should come to repentance." No, Sir! That's not talking about elect. The Bible says that God is not willing that anybody go to Hell. God said to Israel through Ezekiel, "... as I live I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his evil way." Jesus wept over a city that rejected Him,
I believe some try to go so deep in theology that they cant truly relate to people in the real world. I think some get addicted to their theology. They cant even communicate with others without theological terms. A person believing in the promises of God to the elect is a most comforting thing. But when people try to go so deep as to explain it by their own theological understanding of how God chooses the elect then they can lose a real freedom in believing everybody can be saved.
There is so much more in that article that TJ gave me that I would recommend for anyone here to read.
I want to study and rightly divide the word of truth and never believe anything that would cause me to depart from the word of God. I may not know just exactly how a person became the elect but I am truly happy and free about whosoever that believeth meaning that everybody can be saved if they accept the conditions of salvation in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Doctrine is good if it is coming out of the Life of God because life will continually be in it. But when doctrine is producing death then we should stop trying to get life to come from that doctrine and get back to the Life of God and go again from there.
Blessings to all!
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| | 2008/8/1 10:25 | Profile | BeYeDoers
Member
Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN
| | Re: | | When reading Romans 9 in regards to Pharaoh, you must keep in mind the OT account of him. Pharaoh hardened his own heart, and God strengthened that hardening to lead to his end (the Hebrew is "hardened" re: Pharaoh and "strengthened" re: God)
As far as the cry of the damned in Romans 9, if you ever witness, you'll find out that they aren't angry with God for "justification by election" and "condemnation by non-election" but because God justifies by grace through faith and not by works. They think God should justify by works, which they think are good (which is why the law is necessary, per Romans 6 and 7).
God fits one vessel for glory and the other for destruction based on the death of Christ and His choice only, by grace through faith. The same lump, rotten man, not on any works, but grace through faith.
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Denver McDaniel
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| | 2008/8/1 10:28 | Profile | tjservant
Member
Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA
| | Re: | | This reply is to all
Thank you all for such a kind and gentle spirited dialog. It is a joy to discus our understanding of the ways of our Lord and Savior.
I believe election is clearly revealed in the Bible. I also believe it is equally clear that it is based "according to the good pleasure of his will" (Eph). God said, I will have mercy upon whom I have mercy, and My ways are not your ways. I do not understand all the details, but I do see it in scripture.
That being said
I will also add that I completely believe in the responsibility of the believer. These statements may seem to conflict, but I do not believe the Bible contradicts itself. I accept the paradoxes found through out the Bible. My understanding is the only thing that places limits. Many Calvinists of the past were simply accepting of these two seemingly contradictory ideas. Charles Spurgeon and J.C. Ryle, both staunch Calvinists, spoke of this dilemma. As for me, I cannot deny one or the other. I have simply resigned myself to believing both, knowing that God understands and that is all that matters.
Many try to have one or the other. I believe this is one of the largest problems and that it often results in ignoring certain verses and/or talking them out of context and twisting them. Hyper-Calvinists have done much damage in this area. There are many people today that come against Calvinism when they are actually having a problem with Hyper-Calvinistic ideas. Charles Spurgeon often spoke out against this perverted doctrine.
We must always remember
no one will be in hell that does not deserve it.
Repent and believe.
Grace and peace
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TJ
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| | 2008/8/1 11:14 | Profile | learn
Member
Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613
| | Re: | | Thank you all. I especially needed Beyedoers and rbanks (re: the article) last 2 posts.
If both rbanks and tjservant do not mind, is it possible to post the article given by tjservant to rbanks. I think it will help us including myself.
I should have clarified myself when I say Romans 9 is a stumbling block. 1 thing about the bible I find is that it never just accomplishes 1 or 2 things. The bible is like 'having many layers and dimensions' of knowledge, truth etc. We think that a particular passage apply to 1 or 2 things only, but in actuality it applies to many more and when the time comes, it will reveal another layer of itself. Romans 9 like all the other chapters I believe has this ability too.
I'm no scholar. For me, I always try to understand it from a child and father perspective and also the 'simplest perspective'. Later on I changed it to adopted child and father perspective. I hope later on I will be able to understand it from a servant and master perspective also when I mature in my walk. As an adopted child, if God is willing to accept you with all your shortcomings, its a feeling of intense gratefulness and love.
However, if God does chose his elect without regards as to allowing someone to come to him or not and may make/raise/allow someone to be borne to show His glory and later cast him to hell without letting the person a choice to come to Him, then as an adopted child, the adopted child will not feel completely safe at all because he will always be wondering if his adoption (especially when he feels at a stage where God's presence is far or when he is a new Christian learning to undersand God) is nothing more than God 'using' him for this purpose. How can he feel completely save in God's arm if God can and willingly chose some to suffer Hell--I cannot comprehend? He will also be wondering whether 'he was/is/going to earnestly seek God as he will never know his heart as well as God knows his heart, and therefore maybe he is not earnestly seeking God--thus, saying that God did not put into him this wantingness to seek Him earnestly as he was not chosen by God
That thought scares me greatly and scares me more than the appealing idea that God choses His elect without regards for giving humans a choice to come to him. It scares me no end.
I tend to believe that sometimes God allow and may even get people to write things that are not entirely true/true to mold others (in many areas and not necessarily on that particular topic) and to be a stumbling block to others.
I want to have perfect love for God but how can I really have it if I'm always so afraid that He might not chose me and have been leading me along (example thinking that I have the Holy Ghost in me etc) for the ride. At this stage, I'm not willing to believe it because it will be just a stumbling block to me. I do believe that this topic will have lots of things to learn for me and others and not just on 'who the elect are'. Sometimes God confound/puzzle/break us to build us up to be better.
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geraldine
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| | 2008/8/1 11:28 | Profile | learn
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Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613
| | Re: | | Quote:
tjservant wrote:
I believe election is clearly revealed in the Bible. I also believe it is equally clear that it is based "according to the good pleasure of his will" (Eph). God said, I will have mercy upon whom I have mercy, and My ways are not your ways. I do not understand all the details, but I do see it in scripture.
It is true that God will have mercy on whom He wants. It is true that there is an elect people. My concern is that we are trying to negate a 'method' on how God choses His 'elect people' (ie people are not given free will to choose to come to Him). As far as I know, no where is it stated in the bible that God will not save anyone that earnestly seek Him and that those that earnestly seek Him are those that He chose to put that 'wantingness to seek Him' in their hearts whereas for the others that He does not chose, he does not give them this feeling. I know that there are verses that He mention about 'us wanting to seek Him etc' but I think that it may have been misinterpreted to mean that
God choses/elects whom He wants without giving the chance for people to choose to come to Him. There are some that I believe God will certainly choose without the humans say in this--example the prophets
When I was first taught Christianity, it was all about our free will on whether we chose to come to Christ. Now many years later, it seems to be that 'we have no will at all on whether we chose to come to Christ'.
For those of us who believe that we are really Christians, don't we all know that we are given a choice to 'sin/sin not on certain things'. That's why there is rebuke and discipline by God when we sin. There's a choice here. To then say that some others are not given a choice to come to Him seems so alien when 'real Christians are allowed a choice to sin/sin not with the repercussions of God rebuking/disciplining them'
Many of us here think that only a remnant of people will be saved. I cannot comprehend that God would so willingly cast out so many to Hell without giving them a chance to come to Him.
I'm willing to accept that I do not understand the seemingly 'contradictory' passages in the bible. What I'm not willing to do is try to force an understanding of the bible when I don't feel a need to/called (by God) to do so
I'm aware that people tend to reject Calvinism because they mistook Hyper Calvinism as Calvinism. When I first read Calvinism, I was scared but certain things told me to dig further and what I found was Calvinism was ok if its stated correctly. However, my digging is not extremely deep, so not exactly sure where the Calvinism and not Hyper Calvinism stand on how God choses his people. I have respect for both Spurgeon and J C Ryle. I've not read much of their works but somehow there's a feeling of I can trust them to a fair bit of extent. How accurate my feelings are, I will only know when I delve further into them. I also read vaguely somewhere that it seems that somehow either Spurgeon/Calvin's institute/website (not sure what it is) has been corrupted with a different type of Calvinist than the true Calvinist that makes more sense to me (not Hyper Calvinist)
At this stage, I'm more interested in working on a deepening of my understanding of the bible rather than theology papers written by preachers. I'm also less interested in the different denominations--Methodist/Calvinist etc as I prefer to base my understanding on the bible rather than man made church denominations
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geraldine
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| | 2008/8/1 11:53 | Profile | davym
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Joined: 2007/5/22
Posts: 326
| | Re: | |
Quote:
At this stage, I'm more interested in working on a deepening of my understanding of the bible rather than theology papers written by preachers. I'm also less interested in the different denominations--Methodist/Calvinist etc as I prefer to base my understanding on the bible rather than man made church denominations
Wise words.
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David
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| | 2008/8/1 12:05 | Profile | tjservant
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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA
| | Re: | | Quote:
What I'm not willing to do is try to force an understanding of the bible when I don't feel a need to/called (by God) to do so
This is Good. I'm not sure understanding can be forced anyway.
Quote:
At this stage, I'm more interested in working on a deepening of my understanding of the bible rather than theology papers written by preachers. I'm also less interested in the different denominations--Methodist/Calvinist etc as I prefer to base my understanding on the bible rather than man made church denominations
I find that the more time I spend in the Word the more I understand other peoples theology, whether I embrace it or not.
I believe many folks try to fit their limited understanding of theology into their limited understanding of Scriptures and vice versa. I have certainly been guilty of this.
Many of us are simply at different points along the same path. Revelation and understanding is different for different folks. Let each man be fully convinced.
I dont believe anything is more important that actual Holy Spirit guided Bible study. Scripture should be the starting
and ending point. I sometimes have questions and I believe there is nothing wrong with asking our brothers and sister here on SI or consulting commentaries. Its kinda like having a wise old Uncle that has walked with the Lord for many years living across the street, only in my case
he lives on my bookshelf. It all must be weighed against Scripture.
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TJ
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| | 2008/8/1 12:49 | Profile |
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