| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: | | Yes, Corrie's a must read for sure. And Richard Wurmbrand.
Bless your heart and God Bless your stay here.
I'm sure He will bless us with you.
(Hey, don't ask how - right?!)
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|  2008/2/8 0:56 | | roaringlamb
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California
| | Re: | | Quote:
Christ died for all men, but the forgiveness of sins is only applied to those who accept the gift of salvation. Going back one verse earlier in Romans 5 illustrates this point.
Please forgive me for not welcoming you here, I did not notice you were new. Welcome aboard.
Now, please show me in the text you quoted where it implies the following-"those who accept the gift of salvation".
Quote:
So Jesus died for all, and those who receive the gift have the sacrifice applied to them. Keep in mind "receiving a gift" is not compulsory, it is a choice, or it's not a gift.
So then Jesus died for some who are in hell? He failed to do what He set out to do, which was bring "all that the Father had given Him, and raise them up the last day"?
Christ died for His sheep, look at the following from John 10-
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
John 10:26 But [b]ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,[/b] as I said unto you.
John 10:27 [b]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:[/b]
Now what else does Jesus say about these sheep?
John 10:28 [b]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish[/b], neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Notice who gives life here, and than remember why the others did not believe. Jesus did not say that were not Hi sheep because they did not believe, but instead said that they did not believe because they were not His sheep.
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Notice this verse actually says whole world. John makes it clear beyond all argument: whole world. All means all. Whole world means whole world. Scripture couldn't be any clearer.
Well this would be ok if indeed God had propitiated His wrath towards the whole world. But since He has not, and even John 3:36 tells us that God's wrath abides upon those who do not believe, this passage cannot mean that every human in the world will not suffer the wrath of God.
If Christ was the propitiation or wrath atoning sacrifice for all of mankind, then why would any go to Hell?
You cannot say that it is because of unbelief, because if indeed Christ died for all of their sins, is not unbelief a sin as well? And if they are punished for not believing even though they have been forgiven for not believing, what kind of god have you now created?
Now logically, and hermenuetically, we must understand that the Jewish mind was completely opposed to anyone outside of Israel having salvation. For theirs alone was the Messiah and all others were scum and sinners who deserved what they got. So John is making the point that Christ is the wrath atoning sacrifice for not only the Jewish people he was addressing, but also of all kinds of people.
Note his words in the Revelation-
Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood [b]out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;[/b]
Notice these are purchased out of every group, but not every group is purchased.
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In fact, 2 Peter 2:1 makes a point of showing that Jesus even died for false prophets headed for destruction! But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought thembringing swift destruction on themselves..
If you search around through the forum topics, I have addressed this before. I will simply tell you, it does not mean what are making it mean, and the Greek language proves that.
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This all boils down to the character of God as taught by scripture. God loves everyone! Jesus died for everyone! But unfortunately for some Hyper-Calvinists their man-made system of logic must come before the teaching of God's holy word.
God may love everyone as you say, but He will not save everyone. Jesus did not die for everyone, or everyone would be saved.
Now as for the hyper-Calvinist thing, do you understand the difference between hyper and regular?
Also is it wrong to logically look at the Scriptures? Or is it only wrong when the outcome doesn't jive with tradition?
_________________
patrick heaviside
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| | 2008/2/8 1:07 | Profile | theopenlife
Member
Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926
| | Re: | | Just chiming in here to perhaps clarify something...
Did Christ die for all people? There is no doubt that Christ's death brought certain benefits to those who will be saved as well as to many who will not be saved. However, saying Christ "died" for all men is not the same as claiming He "atoned" for all men.
Christ literally atoned - that is, actually paid for, bore, and made a complete satisfaction on behalf of the sins of only a limited number of people, namely the Elect. To deny this is either to deny that Christ truly atoned for any sins on the cross, or to proclaim that all people will be in heaven seeing as all sins would then be paid for. Have you understood what an atonement is? What propitiation means?
The offer is to all on condition of belief. Only the elect will believe because only a regenerate man voluntarily chooses Christ for his savior. Regeneration is the gift of God, producing faith.
The will makes the choice, but its choice is based upon its nature. Cows have a will but they cannot choose to hunt for animals to eat. Their inability to choose in this case is not because of a broken will but because of a nature which is inherently and unchangeably determined to eat grass, not to hunt live prey. Likewise, the natural man has a will yet it is subject to his nature. His nature is sinful. The scriptures describe natural man as dead, deaf, and blind - natural man cannot perceive the goodness and wisdom of God's offer in Christ. The natural man will and does always choose to reject the gospel - not because of a broken will but because of a corrupt nature. God must first regenerate men if they are to be saved.
The price of this regeneration was paid for on the cross for a limited number of undeserving sinners. Does that number include you, friend? It does if you will believe. Call out Christ's name to God for grace, and in calling you will hear the answer.
Hope that states it clearly!
:-) |
| | 2008/2/8 2:56 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
But really katy, your view sounds nice and all, but answer what the text is saying.
Roaringlamb,
We have in 2nd Thess, that the wrath of God is coming on those who rejected the Gospel, or the Love of the Truth that they might be saved. Who is the TRUTH...Jesus said I am the Way, the Truth and the LIFE.
We know YES, the Power of the Blood of Jesus or Paul also says, the POWER of the CROSS is effectual to those who receive.....
Those who are lost and face judgement will be judged for rejecting Jesus Christ. Sin has been Judged, and when you receive Jesus, IN HIM, He took your Judgement and Wrath upon Him.....
If the sin debt is paid for all, then Jesus is and has full authority to judge those who have rejected Him.
People who die in their sin have made a choice to do so.
Jesus came into the World to save sinners. ALL are sinners!
1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Romans 5:16
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Romans 5:15-17
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift [u][b]came upon ALL men[/b][/u] unto justification of life.
What came upon ALL Men.....THE GIFT OFFERED!
You see how taking Romans 9 out of context does not work well with these verses.
If you want to literally say God Chose Jacob PERIOD, then ONLT Jacob and Israel are saved......no mention here at all of Gentiles period...correct. For only Jacob was named ISRAEL, Not even Isaac was renamed Israel. So anyone who is even more literal then you could say that God rejected the descendants of Ismael and Edom for all eternity. But is that so....NO! Many Arabs today are Born Again.
These chapters in Romans 9-11 are laying down the whole plan of salvation, and speaks of teh SEED Jesus Christ, and teh line in which Jesus Christ comes.
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, House of David....etc, . No one else can claim to have a Jesus Christ not rooted right here. Any other Jesus is anti-christ.
Katy
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| | 2008/2/8 6:49 | |
| | Re: | | [u][b]Lets Follow what Paul is saying in Romans 9.[/b][/u]
Romans 9:7
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall [u][b]thy seed [/b][/u]be called.
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between [u][b]thy seed [/b][/u]and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Genesis 21:12
And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall [u][b]thy seed [/b][/u] be called.
[u][b]What Seed? [/b][/u]
JESUS CHRIST!!!!!!
Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his [u][b] seed [/b][/u] were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to [u][b] thy seed [/b][/u], [u]which is Christ[/u]
Romans 9:7
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall [u][b] thy seed [/b][/u] be called.
[u][b]Here clearly identifies ***Isaac***, not any of the other children of Abraham, RE: Ishmael.[/b][/u]
Genesis 22:17
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply [u][b] thy seed [/b][/u] as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy [u][b] seed [/b][/u] shall possess the gate of his enemies;
[u][b]What Enemy:[/b][/u]
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between[u][b] thy seed [/b][/u] and her [u][b] seed [/b][/u]; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Genesis 22:18
And in thy [u][b] seed [/b][/u] shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Romans 4:18
Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall [u][b]thy seed [/b][/u] be.
John 7:42
Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the [u][b] seed [/b][/u] of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his [u][b] seed [/b][/u] were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to [u][b] thy seed [/b][/u], which is Christ.
Acts 13:23
Of this man's [u][b] seed [/b][/u] hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
Acts 3:25
Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in [u][b] thy seed [/b][/u] shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
[u][b]Now Salvation is clarified that it is through FAITH, not the LAW[/b][/u]
Romans 4:13
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his [u][b] seed [/b][/u], through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Galatians 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the [u][b] seed [/b][/u]should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the [u][b] seed [/b][/u]; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Romans 4:18
Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall [u][b]thy seed [/b][/u] be.
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's [u][b] seed [/b][/u], [u]and heirs according to the promise.[/u]
[u][b]What is the PROMISE?[/b][/u]
Galatians 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive [u]the promise of the Spirit through faith.[/u]
Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, [u]ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [/u]
The Promise of the Spirit of the Life of Christ that set you free from the Law of SIN and Death....that came upon ALL men at the fall of Adam & Eve.....so is the GIFT of this Promise offered to ALL Men. Yet not ALL men will receive.
To as Many as receive Him, to them gave He the power to become the Sons of God.
[u][b]To Who?[/b][/u]
TO AS MANY as receive Him.
Love in Christ
Katy
The fulfillment of Genesis 3:15, is at the second coming of Jesus Christ to earth, when out of SION will come a deliver to save Israel, Romans 11, Establish His Millennial Kingdom Reign, bind Satan for 1000 years, and after these things are fulfilled, throw death and hades into the lake of fire.
Here is the order of events:
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
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| | 2008/2/8 8:47 | |
| | Re: | | Part 3
When one is witnessing to: for example an Arab, who claim they are the seed of Abraham, as they do, because they are the descendants of Ismael, or that Allah is the same God as the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, these chapters in Romans 9-11 are a perfect place to take them.
No one can come to the Father except through His Son Jesus Christ, and there are no promises apart from Jesus Christ.
When God sent Moses into Egypt...it was to LET **MY** People GO....the descendants of Jacob, not those of Ismael or Esau.
They see themselves as seeds, yet the Bible totally qualifies only one seed...Jesus Christ.
In Romans 11, speaking of the root, and those grafted in. No Gentile is grafted into the Root, which is the Covenant made to Abraham that **All nations of the earth be blessed ((Spiritual Blessings))) apart from Jesus Christ through the promise of the Spirit.....stated in Galatians.....that the promise of the Spirit will come on the Gentiles. Those apart from this promise of the Spirit, even though they are Abraham's seed...Ishmael's descendants...are in bondage.
Israel *MINE ELECT*, are also called the Elect in Romans 11.
The fighting over the Land now, because the Arab Nations, believing they are Abraham Descends have a right to this land. However, this land was not promised to Abrahan through Ismael's descendants, but through Isaac and Jacob's.
The Bible, is about JESUS CHRIST, from Genesis to Revelation,
Love in Christ
Katy
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| | 2008/2/8 10:30 | |
| | Re: | | Quote:
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of MANY; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed FOR MANY for the remission of sins.
I love it... when it suits the Calvinist they will tell you that "all" doesnt mean "all", and "world" doesnt mean "world".... but here they claim that "many" really does mean "many"!
Thats kinda like making up your own rules during a pick up game of basketball. And it's also why I get a headache trying to keep up with the Calvinist. I need to create an excel spreadsheet just to keep up with what they say scripture doesnt really mean... etc etc. Anything that confusing cant be of God. God is not the author of confusion.
By the way, I do resent the implication that if you dont understand Calvinism then you dont have the Holy Spirit. The reasoning is that scripture can only be understood thru the enlightening of the Holy Spirit... which is 100% accurate. But what the Calvinist is saying is if you dont understand Calvinism then obviously you are not being taught of the Holy Spirit... or worse yet, you dont have the Holy Spirit (i.e. you're not saved).
Now everyone has played nice on this thread, but in the past on this forum Calvinists have actually told the rest of us that we are not saved because we are not Calvinists. I do want to pat everyone on the back for not bringing that type of idiocy into this thread... and that goes for both sides. Well done!
Krispy |
| | 2008/2/8 11:44 | | tjservant
Member
Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA
| | Re: | | Quote:
Thats kinda like making up your own rules during a pick up game of basketball. And it's also why I get a headache trying to keep up with the Calvinist. I need to create an excel spreadsheet just to keep up with what they say scripture doesnt really mean... etc etc. Anything that confusing cant be of God. God is not the author of confusion.
Thing is
its not confusing to everyone
only some.
_________________
TJ
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| | 2008/2/8 15:54 | Profile |
| | Re: | | No scripture is for PRIVATE interpretation.
One only needs **Child Like** faith. How many children have a PHD in Theology?
Remember the Simplicity that is in Christ Jesus.
The Holy Spirit is our teacher, and can teach even a child.
Katy |
| | 2008/2/8 17:19 | | roaringlamb
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California
| | Re: | | Quote:
Anything that confusing cant be of God. God is not the author of confusion.
Brother ever ponder the Trinity? It's confusing at times, but is the Trinity of God?
Even Peter spoke of some of the things that Paul wrote in this way-
2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; [b]in which are some things hard to be understood[/b], which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Just because something does not make sense to our natural minds does not mean it is not of God. Why does Christ say that bread and wine are His body and blood? Why does God give His Son to die a cruel death for His enemies?
Unless we study and learn, we will be confused, and though we will never have a full grasp upon the truth of Scripture, we are called to study to show ourselves approved unto God, and of course that dividing Paul speaks of is the division between Law and Gospel(but that's another topic altogether).
Brother many many people reject these truths simply because they do not want them to be true. They don't want to think that man is really wicked, and condemned, and worse yet dead to God until He gives them life.
The old Adam that remains in every believer even wishes that there was some "good" in them, but after conversion, we must understand that any good work done by us is the fruit of the Holy Spirit alone, and is to the glory of God.
Now allow me for a second to ask you a simple question. In your experience with God, did you birth yourself, or was there a moment when Christ made sense? When the things you had previously enjoyed(sinful things)were no longer ok?
Did you convert yourself? Or behind the scenes did God put His laws into your heart, and thus create a new ideal for living, ultimately living to now please the One who we previously hated, and offended.
I know from my own experience, one day the lights went on, and I did not turn them on. One day I did not care what God thought about my life, and then the next, I did, and I craved His word to direct and comfort me. And no I did not make a decision in a service of anything like that, but rather God sovereignly arranged the details in my life so that a man called me(wrong number mind you), and he shared Scriptures with me. God gave birth to me through this, and I can no more deny that He alone did it than I can deny the nose on my face.
He did it, not me. I was not searching for Him, but He foreknew me, and predestined me to be saved, or else I never would have been, because I would have gone on in my sin and never thought twice about it.
_________________
patrick heaviside
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| | 2008/2/8 17:51 | Profile |
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