Dear sister LittleGift.

Thank you for your messages and I want to apologise for not having had time to reply before.

Please allow me to comment on some things that you said.

First of all

The text in Luke 6:1 Lu 6:1

And it came to pass on the second Sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
=====

I am sorry sister but to me it only tells me that there was a sequence of two sabbaths, Nothing more.

You yourself said this...

"""""In the Gospel narrative it simply means the next Sabbath, but He obviously meant something more than that in this case!"""""

I am sorry but I do not see this something else that you are talking about.

You are laboring to much dear sister. I once mentioned Hebrews 3/4 to say that God rested on the seventh day, and you wrote to me saying that I was twisting scriptures to make it say what I wanted it to say.

I believe that the Gospel has to be by nature something very simple for us to understand, otherwise only theologians would be able to understand it, and I believe that when we read the bible it should tells us, very clearly what God is trying to tells us, Jesus said this Himself.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.
=====

You have talked about a second sabbath, before in another message you talked about a real sabbath that was before creation, I asked you to explain about it but never got an answer.

===========

You then talked about a baby that is circumcised on the 8th day and you asked why?

Dear sister it is very simple, I have no problem with that, God gave circumcision of the flesh as a sign and nothing more.

You asked why Abraham had to be circumcised. I do not think that abraham circumcision has anything to do with what we are talking about.

======

Then you talked about Jesus and nicodemus.

You quoted:"""9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can this be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this?"""""


what does Jesus mean with ""This""?

John 3:3 "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

John 3:4-5 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

The being born again that Jesus is talking about is the baptism of water and spirit, Unless you do this you cannot be saved, Jesus words not mine.....

then you asked me this question.

"""""""Do you know the new birth, are you a new creation in Christ? Do you speak of the things you know by the Holy Spirit? """"""""

Dear sister if I do not talk through the Holy Spirit there is just someone else left, and that would be somehow an offensive thing to say...

I am sorry dear sister but the revelation that you claim to have had, I just don't see it the same way, maybe it is just me......


God bless you......

Dear sister LittleGift,

please allow me to comment on what you wrote to me and chris,

you quote:"""and probably Chris's, there is no exclusion from the Sabbath, only a fulfillment."""

I have just one problem and some questions with this answer dear sister,

Was this fulfillment for the Jew and for the Gentile or just for the Gentile.

The bible says:

Romans 2:10-11 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

So, did Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath for the Jew as well?

If you answer is yes, then we have a problem because the bible also says that the SAbbath is a perpetual covenant with the children of Israel,

If you say no, Jesus did not fulfill it for the Jew, then you are saying that God will judge us with partiality.

Which one is it?

++++++++

Quote: """Being a law unto himself meant that man was no longer able to keep God's law, however hard he tried.

Especially the Sabbath."""""


Dear sister I do not even know where to start here.

Now, I ask you this, what God do you serve that gives His people laws that they cannot follow, a God that establishes guidances that He knows we will fail.

I am sorry for saying this dear sister but this was the same arguments Satan used in heaven to take a third of the Angels with Him. I would be very careful before making statments such as this.

This is a few comments of God's law for you.
a few statements from DAvid and some others.


Deuteronomy 4:8 "And what great nation is there that has such statutes and righteous judgments as are in all this law which I set before you this day?

Psalm 119:18 Open my eyes, that I may see Wondrous things from Your law.

Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

You can read the whole of Psalm 119 it is amazing.....

Aparently dear sister the apostle Paul had a very different concept of the law.

Quote: """"God knew that they would be unable to keep the Sabbath as it was intended that man should keep it,""""""

Dear sister again I ask you, what God do you serve?
The One I serve gives me law that is holy, and commandments that are holy and just and good.

Now you claimed that no one could keep the commandments, law, or sabbath. Well Let's see.....

Luke 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


Genesis 7:1 Then the LORD said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil.

and the list goes on and on.....

Aparently dear sister there are people who did it.
======

I get a bit worried with people that use arguments as this,

unfair laws,
Jesus was accused of breaking the sabbath.
==========

quote:"""""As I said before, it's much more than keeping a particular day!""""

dear sister, I am sorry for saying this but God gave us very simple and clear instructions to show us how we should spend our sabbaths, whatever it is said besides it, it is man's words.

Deuteronomy 5:12-14 ' Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.


In my point of view, God could not have put it any simpler.....

If I were you I would reconsider some of the estatements here,

God gave us holy laws, just laws and fair commandments.

so much so, that He ordered us to:

Genesis 17:1 "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.

How could God ask this of Abraham if He knew Abraham would fail?

it just does't make any sense.
========

So, my question to you is:

Is the sabbath still binding for the Jew or Jesus fulfilled it for them as well?

I do not believe that you gave a satisfactory answer to the question the dear brother ChrisJd hasn't answer yet.

Sabbath to the Jew, but so was the New Covenant.

How do you include yourself in one but excluded yourself from the other?

Dear brother Adisciple:

Greetings to you.

I thoroughly enjoyed your message, Please allow me to comment on a few points.

You mentioned the fact that we should set aside one day, it doesn't really matter when. I have two main problems with this.

First, Cain sacrifice = Cain offered His best and yet God did not accept his sacrifice. And God said,

Genesis 4:7 "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

Now the commandment is Keep the seventh day Holy, not any other day.

Question, an Israelite, could he do the same as you have claimed, could He choose any day of the week or it was the SAbbath?
Well we know the end of the guy that was gathering sticks on the sabbath.

Second, this freedom to choose what day to worship/observe. can I apply it to all the other commandments as well? Do I have allowances on the other commandments, for instance,

To kill
To lie
To Covet
To worship images
To blaspheme
To worship other gods
To honor mother and father

I do not know but either we follow all of them the way God told us to or we also follow all the other to the best of our habilities.

Now Cain sacrifice, Do you think God was harsh by not accepting it?
Was God harsh by not allowing Moses and Aaron because Moses hit the Rock?

Let me ask you a question:

On judgement day how do you think that man that was stoned because he gathered some sticks on the sabbath will think of God's judgments when he is condenmed just after you being sent to heaven having never observed the sabbath?
If you were in his shoes how would you feel.

I know that the way I said it makes one think that the sabbath is a heavy burden that one has to carry, and it isn't at all, I used this language for argument sake, for I believe the sabbath is a gift from God, He is the one who sanctifies me.

but it is a requirement of the Ten Commandments, I would love to see your comments on this....

God bless you..

Hi again everyone.


Jayyou,

You said,


"Exodus 31:16 'Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31 " Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -

Hebrews 8:8 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -


Sabbath given to israel only.
New covenant Israel and the house of judah."







These were two houses of a divided kingdom, each with their own kings.

Kingdoms have their own laws. In this case their's was a covenant between them and God, called the law of Moses.







In Matthew it says,


[b][color=000000]From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, [/color][/b]


[b][color=660000]Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. [/color][/b]


- Matthew 4:17(KJV)

Not the Kingdom of Israel, or of Judah, but the Kingdom of Heaven.


How would anyone now, according to the Lord Jesus, the King, enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, be they of the house of Israel, or of Judah, or otherwise?



[b][color=000000] Jesus answered, [/color][/b]


[b][color=660000]Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [i]of[/i] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [/color][/b]


- John 3:5(KJV)


No matter who they were, what family they had been born to, what kingdom they had formerly belonged to or what laws they were formerly under, they had to be born again.


See again John 1:12-13.



Jesus, the King, came and gave the words of this new Kingdom and brought in its New Covenant.





So then, how does anyone partake of the New covenant?

By a new birth.


As to this continuing question of the 7th Day Sabbath, maybe we could ask the question a bit differently:



Where does King Jesus command His subjects to keep the 7th day sabbath as it was given in the Law of Moses?

_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

Hi Jayyou,


You had asked AD about this,


"Second, this freedom to choose what day to worship/observe. can I apply it to all the other commandments as well? Do I have allowances on the other commandments, for instance,

To kill
To lie
To Covet
To worship images
To blaspheme
To worship other gods
To honor mother and father"




Why does someone led by the Spirit of God need to be instructed out of the Ten Commandments?


If two kingdoms have similar laws, do the subjects of the one have to follow the other in order to follow their own?




[b][color=000000]But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. [/color][/b]


- Galatians 5:18(KJV)



Chris

_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

I posted this on the similar post in regards to the Sabbath, and would like to post it here as well:

It has always been my understanding that the early Church, that preached to the Gentiles, met on Sunday, the first day of the week to worship. They met on that day because it was the Day that Jesus Christ resurrected from the dead.

It was also the day that He led captivity captive [All those, that by faith believed in the "Seed of the Woman", "The Messiah", prophesized in Genesis 3:15 and throughout the Old Testament, that lived and died before Christ's final sacrifice on the cross of Calvary] with Him when He went to heaven to place His blood on the Altar, in Heaven, to pay for all sin, from the beginning of time, to the end of time. Also, the very Sunday that Jesus Christ resurrected from the dead occured the same day that the Jews had been celebrating the feast of First Fruits since Moses delivered the Law (Lev. 23:9-14)---Christ is our First Fruits!

There are only two such references in the Bible about the early Church meeting on the First Day of the Week:

Acts 20
7. And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
8. And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.
9. And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
10. And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
11. When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.
12. And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted.

1 Cor 16:
1. Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. 3. And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
4. And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.

In conclusion, Ray Stedman had this to say about the Sabbath:

We must recognize that the weekly sabbath, i.e., Saturday, is not the real sabbath. It never was, and it is not now. It is a picture or a reminder of the real sabbath. The true sabbath is a rest; the Jewish sabbath is a shadow, a picture of that rest. All the Old Testament shadows pointed to Christ. They were predictions, foreviews, of the coming of the One who would fulfill all these remarkable things. Every lamb that was brought as an offering was a shadow of the work of Christ. Every burnt offering, every bit of incense that was offered, was a picture of the fragrance of Jesus Christ. The tabernacle was a shadow of him. The high priest, in his garments and his office, was a shadow of Christ as our High Priest. Read the book of Hebrews and you will see how beautifully all this is brought out. These Old Testament shadows were looking forward to the coming of the One who would fulfill these and thus end them. When the work of Jesus Christ was finished the shadows were no longer needed.

We behave very similarly today. Some twenty-two years ago when, as a much younger man, I was in Hawaii, I found myself engaged to a lovely girl who lived in Montana and whom I hadn't seen for three or four years. We were writing back and forth in those lonely days, and she sent me her picture. It was a beautiful picture and I showed it to all my friends dozens of times. I propped it up on the desk and I would look at it at least three or four times a day. It was all I had to remind me of her and it served moderately well for that purpose. But one wonderful day she arrived in Hawaii and I saw her face to face. I didn't spend much time with the picture after that, nor have I since. The other day I was cleaning out the garage and ran across the picture. It was still a beautiful picture, and I noted that she had not changed very remarkably since those days, but I found that the picture was quite incomplete and unsatisfying. When the real thing came there was no longer any need for the picture.

This is exactly what happened with these Old Testament shadows, including the Sabbath. When the Lord came, and his work was ended, making possible the true fulfillment of God's intention in the Sabbath, the picture was no longer needed. The weekly sabbath ended at the cross. Paul specifically says this. In the letter to the Colossians he confirms it to us. In Chapter 2, beginning with Verse 13, he says,

And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the principalities and powers and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in it [not him; it, the cross].

Therefore, let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:13-17)

Jesus Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath!

Walter

Jay, I can hardly believe that you seem to have misunderstood so completely the things that I, and others wrote.

I started to write a response, but grew so weary of it that I gave up for now.

Except for a brief comment on one thing you said:

Hi, Jayyou.

You asked for my response to your questions, but I don't think I can do better than refer you to what Walter said. (And many others are telling you the same.)

I wonder if you would be open to a suggestion. Can I encourage you to be before the Lord with an open heart, and reading 2 Cor. Chapters 3 and 4?

...Because it is just as true today, obviously, that the veil that was over the hearts of the people of old can be there over our hearts as well.

"But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart" (2 Cor. 3.15).

Paul says Moses put a veil over his face to the intent that the Israelites should not see the fading glory on his face. And he says this was a prophetic thing Moses was doing, representing, actually, the veil on the hearts and minds of the people that prevented them from seeing that in Christ, the old covenant is done away.

What suffering the apostle went through at the hands of his own beloved brethren the Jews as he sought to bring this Gospel to them!

It is my painful observation that this same veil is over the hearts of many today who, it seems, even though they be Christians, are very much like those Israelites of old, and somehow are simply unable to see (or maybe unwilling to see) the glory of the New Covenant, blindly insisting over and over again that the Old Covenant Laws and Sabbaths and other injunctions are still in effect in their shadow form.

This so perplexes me. Because the New Covenant Glory and Sabbath and Law are so much more wondrous than the old! What do people suppose they are gaining by holding so tenaciously to these Old Covenant things? I confess, I am very perplexed by it all.

(But I am coming to the place where I have to start seeing that the Enemy is involved in all this. He certainly knows what's at stake.)

There is only one solution for this kind of blindness, and Paul gives it to us.

"Nevertheless, when it (the heart) shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is THE SPIRIT, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (3.17).

Again, he is speaking of the little prophetic "parable" Moses acted out. For when Moses went in to speak with the Lord, he took the veil off.

I emphasize this. "Now the LORD is THE SPIRIT."

Let us turn to the Lord, all of us, and give the Spirit of the Lord His Lordship. He will guide us into all the Truth.

May I exhort you, Jayyou, please don't sell yourself short of the True Sabbath. Which is-- and you said I was picking and choosing my own Sabbath, but if you read my post I said clearly no one day in the calendar week can fulfill the new covenant Sabbath. "TODAY... if ye will hear His Voice, harden not your heart..."

...I came into this thread late, and am not sure I will have too much more to say. I am just one witness, but it seems to me that when three or four witnesses are in harmony speaking the same thing (I mean, along with the Spirit of God) there is weight to it. What I mean is that you must carefully consider that it might be GOD speaking to you, and not just a few Christians.

AD

_________________
Allan Halton

Hey Guys,

This verse was quoted earlier on today: Gal. 4; 8-10 "Formerly, when you did not know God, you were in bondage to beings that by nature are no gods;
but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves you want to be once more?
You observe days, and months, and seasons, and years!
I am afraid I have labored over you in vain."

I believe that if we study the Scripture carefully, and as a whole, we will see that the Torah (Laws, instructions, teachings, precepts of God) are ALWAYS spoken of as Good, Holy, Just, a Delight, Precious, Wonderful, Perfect, a Blessing....I could go on. [b][i][color=000099]The Word of the Living God should NEVER be referred to as a 'weak and beggarly element![/i][/color][/b]

Friends, ONLY sin is referred to in Scripture as a Bondage, a Curse, an Enslavement, an Ordinance of Death as a result of sin......not the holy Torah!

Possibly Paul was speaking in these verses to former Pagans who had days, months, seasons, years which they lived by (eg. Festival of Ishtar, Festival of Saturnalia...) He was exhorting them not to turn back to their former Pagan ways!

Yeshua himself confirmed the Torah in Matthew - "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Please, let us consider these things,

Thankyou,

Stephen.



[b][color=000099]Psalm 119:53 [i]"Hot indignation seizes me because of the wicked, who forsake thy law"[/i][/color][/b]

Hi everyone,



Strider100,



About this,



'Yeshua himself confirmed the Torah in Matthew - "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.'



[i]...one of these least commandments[/i]



What do you mean by 'confirmed the torah?'



He goes on to say


[b][color=660000] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time...[/color][/b]




[b][color=660000]But I say unto you...[/color][/b]

_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow