| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: I'm not joking... who do you believe killed Jesus? | |
Quote:
Dorcas I looked and couldnt tell if you addressd the comparison of saul and David? specifically if david acted on principle or law of leadership. [David being at that point executioner of countryman and king?]
This interests me in that David had the option with his servant to see saul killed.
You're right. I didn't. I don't see the comparason you're making.
What I had wanted to show in this thread, is that there is an modern doctrine about an end-time revival of Jews (only) based on the second half of Zech 12:10 - but we have both Jesus and John bearing witness that that part of that prophecy is specifically about Gentiles.
My drawing attention to it is not as Katy surmises, but a genuine attempt to highlight what can only be called false doctrine.
There is much more about the interpretation of Zechariah's prophecy which I (personally) question, which has been received into the belief system of modern believers, which I believe is misleading.
'Israel' always included those Gentiles who wanted to join themselves to Israel. Scripture is laden with God's promises to Israel, from Gen 32 when Jacob's name was changed (and before) right until Pentecost in Acts 2. But here is another word specifically for Gentiles - as many other OT prophecies are also - and I believe the Lord has been nagging me with this prophecy for months until He gave me those three references in the gospels, which open up the truth of that word.
It is interesting that he moves from speaking in the third person in the first part of the verse, to speaking in the first '[u]Me[/u] whom they pierced'. If that is the only section which applies to Gentiles, and the rest of the sentence is for Jews, that's ok. Only this one point I wished to bring to everyone's attention.
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|  2007/12/16 13:33 | | psalm1
Member
Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230
| | Re: | | Dorcas , have you considered the part of revelation where Jesus puts his foot on the mount of olives?
I was wondering if he will deal differently with the jews at that moment?
[the jews look for a sign?]
David |
| | 2007/12/16 13:43 | Profile |
| | | 2007/12/16 14:15 | |
| | Re: | | Quote:
My drawing attention to it is not as Katy surmises, but a genuine attempt to highlight what can only be called false doctrine.
Yes and that false doctrine begins by not reading ALL of Zachariah 12. This is to teh House of David, and the House of David does not become even in one's wildest imagination ...Gentiles.
However Replacement/Dominionist/ Reconstructionists will tell you they do.
This is called teh time of JAcob's trouble,
ending in Romans 11, when a Deliver will come out of Sion, and all Israel will be saved.
Zechariah 12
1The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
2Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
6In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
THEY SHALL LOOK UPON ME WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED, and THEY SHALL MOURN FOR HIM (Zechariah 12)
Are all the prophecies of the bible fulfilled and if not which ones haven't been fulfilled yet.
People have dealt differently with prophecies.
Some believe Jesus failed to fulfill all the prophecies and is therefore not the Messiah.
Others believe that some were fulfilled but others fulfilled invisibly or allegorically.
Still, others like myself believe in the delay in the prophetic program that scripture teaches. (Romans 11:25-27; Revelation 10:7 )
I wanted to look at particular prophecies and ask the question whether it has been fulfilled and how.
The first one is in Zechariah which says, "And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, THE SPIRIT OF GRACE and of supplications: and THEY SHALL LOOK UPON ME WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED, and THEY SHALL MOURN FOR HIM, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 IN THAT DAY shall there be a GREAT MOURNING IN JERUSALEM, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart." (Zechariah 12)
I've put in CAPS what I want you to look at.
A casual reading of Zechariah will easily reveal that whenever 'In That Day' is referred to it is referring to the end, which hasn't happened yet.
Everything that will happen IN THAT DAY will make it indisputable that these prophecies haven't happened yet.
Some of the things that will happen IN THAT DAY are:
1) All the nations will be gathered against her (12:3)
2) All that try to move her will be injured.
3) there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. (13:1)
4) that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. (14:7)
5) living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. (14:8)
6) And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. (14:9)
And this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Also notice that this prophecy in Zechariah twelve regarding the piercing of Messiah makes it clear that this mourning for him will be in all of Israel. Every family will mourn.
This hasn't happened yet and though Christ has been pierced, the showing of the marks of the crucifixion AND the resultant mourning of all of Israel hasn't happened yet.
In John nineteen we have the verse which says, 'For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. "
Is this the complete fulfillment of the Zechariah passage?
I think not.
Certainly, we can point to multiple fulfillments of prophecy in the Bible.
Often prophecy is fulfilled in ways that beg a more specific fulfillment.
In other words, Antiochus Epiphanes was a type of Antichrist and even his name begins with anti, but he didn't fulfill everything spoken of the AntiChrist and though what he did, resembled a kind of abomination spoken of by Daniel, (9:25-27) Jesus still later speaks of a abomination of desolation which is still future. (Matthew 24)
Now concerning the passage in Zechariah regarding his piercing, we know that obviously he has already been pierced and obviously some did see him.
However, all the families of Israel have not mourned for him as Zechariah predicts.
So there is more to come.
The Preterists make a major mistake when they assume that it is all over and we can relax now.
There is still much more to come and one that can deny what is happening in Israel today must be blind.
Only one that believes that there are dispensations can rightly argue for a delay and an eventual resumption of what happened in the gospels.
It is the dispensationalists( dirty word) who believe the Kingdom is postponed while the Gentiles are given a chance for salvation.
(Romans 11:24-27; 2 Peter 3), and what we see in the end will be a resumption of the program for Israel and the fulfillment of the rest of the prophecies.
The Preterist has to believe that Acts 2:28 was immediate and visible but Acts 2:29 wasn't.
What justifies believing something to be literal and visible in one verse but invisible and allegorical in the next verse?
Absolutely nothing.
If you don't believe in the fulfillment of Romans 11 then the passages in Zechariah 12 present a real problem for you. So what do you do....explain them away!!!!!!
Revelation says this, "Behold, he cometh with CLOUDS; and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM, and THEY ALSO WHICH PIERCED HIM: and ALL KINDREDS OF THE EARTH SHALL WAIL BECAUSE OF HIM. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY." (Revelation 1)
These verses are problematic for the Preterist because:
1) He comes in the clouds
2) Every Eye Shall See Him
3) THEY ALSO WHICH PIERCED HIM
4) All the Kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
Not all of Israel mourned when they 'looked upon him whom they have pierced', immediately after the crucifixion.
He is still to come in the clouds, every eye to see him and all the kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
Certainly, The A.D. 70 assumption of Replacement Theology doesn't fulfill any of this.
This passage in Revelation One also says, 'EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM, **********and THEY ALSO WHICH PIERCED HIM*******
Here John is including Israel and is reiterating what Zechariah says.
So the crucifixion was not a complete fulfillment or should I say the only fulfillment of the passage in Zechariah because after the crucifixion we still have John making it future tense and there is no evidence that a.d. 70 was a fulfillment of any of these predictions.
The passage in Zechariah also says, "I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, THE SPIRIT OF GRACE and of supplications:" , which will be fulfilled for Israel and it will be an irresistable grace unprecedented.
Irresistable grace did not follow the crucifixion but will be extended toward Israel in the end.
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is MY COVENANT UNTO THEM, when I shall take away their sins. " (Romans 11)
This didn't happen after the crucifixion or in a.d. 70.
This was God's covenant 'unto them'
Look at Ezekiel 36 after this and see that God will restore, regather and recreate Israel in such a way as has never been seen. This is not just a national restoration but a spiritual regeneration that will be because of God's faithfulness.
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matthew 24)
To set up His throne, and take the Throne of David, ruling the Nations with a rod of Iron.
Love in Christ
Katy-did
PS Added for content
John wrote Revelation 85-90 AD, 15 to 20 years after 70ad. therefore making him a futurist of things yet still to come.
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| | 2007/12/16 15:01 | | ChrisJD
Member
Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA
| | Re: | | Hi Dorcas, hope you are well.
I was looking at the passage in Zechariah that you mentioned. I have difficulty seeing this passage as pertaining to something in the future also. I don't want to say it isn't possible because that is way beyond me. But it does seem to fit things that have already happened, especially things in chapter 13 also.
I was looking at Albert Barnes' notes on the Bible in regards to verses 11-14 of chapter 12.
In connection with [i]the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon[/i] he says(I'll copy a few excerpts)
"This was the greatest sorrow, which had fallen on Judah. Josiah was the last hope of its declining kingdom. His sons probably showed already their unlikeness to their father, whereby they precipitated their countrys fall. in Josiahs death the last gleam of the sunset of Judah faded into night."
"...for him the prophet Jeremiah wrote a dirge 2Ch_35:25; all the minstrels of his country spake of him in their dirges 2Ch_35:25. The dirges were made an ordinance which survived the captivity; to this day 2Ch_35:25, it is said at the close of the Chronicles. Among the gathering sorrows of Israel, this lament over Josiah was written in the national collection of dirges 2Ch_35:25."
and that...
'It was (Jerome) a city near Jezreel, now called Maximinianopolis in the plain of Megiddon, in which the righteous king Josiah was wounded by Pharaoh Necho.'
Well, what does that have to do with anything? I was thinking about how this passage might have been fulfilled in the time of Christ and the Apostles.
One, many of the Jews did believe on Him(see for instance Acts 4:4 and 21:20). And so we would think of them mourning in a good way, for sin. But then I was thinking about what Barnes' notes says of Josiah that "...in Josiahs death the last gleam of the sunset of Judah faded into night"
So, I was wondering, could that sort of mourning have applied to the unbeleiving Jews of the time of Christ also? What came to mind was this, where Christ says
"When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [i]he[/i], and [i]that[/i] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."
- John chapter 8 verse 28(KJV)
And also where He said
"When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:"
Luke chapter 13 verse 25(KJV)
And also...
"Yet a little while am I with you, and [i]then[/i] I go unto him that sent me. Ye shall seek me, and shall not find [i]me[/i]: and where I am, [i]thither[/i] ye cannot come."
- John chapter 7 verses 33-34(KJV)
And so, I'm wondering if maybe if some realised at some point that He was the Messiah, but it was too late and maybe this mourning could refer to that also? Perhaps at or around the time of the destruction of Jerusalem? Or maybe even before that when the veil of the temple was rent?
Remember a while back an exchange we had in a thread about Matthew 23:39? Am thinking the same thing here as I was in that thread.
I looked it up and here is a link to it
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15225&forum=36]Matthew 26:64[/url]
It has to do with [b]them[/b] seeing Him coming in the clouds of Heaven. Let me know what you think.
Chris
_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow
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| | 2007/12/16 16:31 | Profile | psalm1
Member
Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230
| | Re: | | dorcas, I believe my question about david\saul applies in that "Who killed Jesus" also consequently asks "who didnt kill Jesus".
Now looking at davids opportunity [passed up] to kill saul,compared to the jews opportunity to stone Jesus could be more than coincidence.
Ciaphas robe was torn,disqualifying him from priestly service. A terrible dilemma for him as it was passover and 3 sacrifices were manditory that day.
Possibly annas did the duty?
I wonder, that since Jesus was priest before his crucifiction, did that prevent the jews from direct involvement?
David |
| | 2007/12/17 13:37 | Profile |
| | Re: I'm not joking ... who do you believe killed Jesus? | |
Dear Katy,
I hope you are well. Sorry it's take so long for me to get back here.
You may be a great deal less frustrated by my posts when you manage to draw back far enough to read what I've said, and reply [i]only[/i] to that, without piling in a world of additional assumption about what I [i]haven't[/i] said.
You said this
Quote:
In John nineteen we have the verse which says, 'For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. "
Is this the complete fulfillment of the Zechariah passage?
I think these sentences from my post, answer that question.
'What I had wanted to show in this thread, is that there is an modern doctrine about an end-time revival of Jews (only) based on the second half of Zech 12:10 - [b]but we have both Jesus and John[/b] bearing witness that that part of that prophecy is specifically about Gentiles...
If that is the only section which applies to Gentiles, and the rest of the sentence is for Jews, that's ok. Only this one point I wished to bring to everyone's attention.'
I could add, it doesn't mean that 'Israel' won't see that He was pierced physically, but that they didn't do that physical piercing [u]is my submission[/u]. And therefore, to base a doctrine for Jews on the one part of that verse which [u]does not apply[/u] (to Jews), [u]is a lie[/u].
Doesn't that matter?
More poignant is the piercing of the heart of Mary, for instance, and the piercing of the consciences of those who heard the gospel on the day of Pentecost.
Further, there is the spiritual understanding of His having been pierced in a type of the brith of the Church - the second Eve - as Wesley calls her, which comes to all who receive the Spirit.
And, there is something in all of us seeing in the Spirit a healthy young man being crucified for the sin of the world, which revolts. It [u]is[/u] a deeply painful sight. But, one need only be mortal for this to strike home.
Moving on, I have no idea how you can say 'Irresistable grace did not follow the crucifixion but will be extended toward Israel in the end.' Or, 'it will be an irresistable grace unprecedented.' I believe these statements go beyond scripture, and it is not that the grace will have changed in its quality or power, but those on whom it pours will be ready to receive it - as those who receive it in this generation, and those who did in centuries past.
One of the reasons for this thread is to try to break down the idea that Jews are somehow incapable of responding to the gospel [u]today[/u], because they don't find the grace being extended to them [i]'irresistable' enough[/i].
Now before you assume anything more than I've said in this post, remember that I'm looking at this objectively. I'm hearing (from the US) what is being said [i]to the world[/i] (through SI) about 'the salvation of Jews' in a general way, and I'm looking for its foundation in scripture, and in this case - those few words - I find that what is being shared [u]as gospel[/u] [i]isn't there[/i] - and you seem to want to ignore this - while I cannot.
I am [u]very[/u] concerned, that no Jew should be lulled into any sense of false security, about salvation hitting them unexpectedly at some future time, if God is speaking to them [u]now[/u], and needs them in His kingdom (and His kingdom in them) now, and if for them, [i]today is the day of salvation[/i]. My heart is to invite them to turn to Christ [i]now[/i]. God's word is being fulfilled [i]all the time![/i]
Joel's prophecy, which began to be fulfilled on the day of Pentecost (ten days after Jesus ascended to heaven), was very definitely to Israel, and has not stopped. This is '[u]the day of grace[/u]'.
John 1
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) [u]full of grace and truth[/u].
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And [u]of his fulness have all we received[/u], [b]and grace for grace[/b].
17 For the law was given by Moses, [i]but[/i] [b]grace and truth came by Jesus Christ[/b].
You are probably unaware of how it reads to the uninitiated, to see many repetitions of the arguments for a future outpouring of the Spirit on Jews - which actually, I am not disputing.
What I'm resisting is the [i]minimising effect[/i] this has on the meaning of Pentecost as a [u]fact[/u] of long past history when Jews [i]began[/i] to be born again, and that this same Spirit continues to be available today in the same abundance to whoever will step up and believe according to the prescription in Romans 10.
You said:
Quote:
If you don't believe in the fulfillment of Romans 11 then the passages in Zechariah 12 present a real problem for you.
I'm glad you began that sentence with 'if'.
Quote:
So what do you do....explain them away!!!!!!
'If' you still think that I am, please be open to the possibility that this is your misapprehension.
Isaiah 59:20
" The Redeemer will come to Zion,
[u]And to those who turn from transgression[/u] in Jacob," Says the LORD.
Regarding Romans 11, do you disagree with Paul that 'The Deliverer [Redeemer] has [already] come out of Zion to turn away ungodliness from Jacob'?
That's not a rhetorical question. It is based in my inferences from your posts, that you believe this has yet to be fulfilled.
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| | 2007/12/17 20:51 | |
| | Re: I'm not joking... who do you believe killed Jesus ? | |
Hi Chris,
Thank you I am well. I hope you are also. :-)
I find much in both Zechariah 13 which may have been fulfilled, particularly this verse which is generally accepted as a reference to Christ:
Zechariah 13:6
And [i]one[/i] shall say unto him,
What [i]are[/i] these wounds in thine hands?
Then he shall answer,
[i]Those[/i] with which I was wounded [i]in[/i] the house of my friends.
Symbolically, there is much in Zechariah 14, also.
Quote:
And so, I'm wondering if maybe if some realised at some point that He was the Messiah, but it was too late and maybe this mourning could refer to that also?
I don't see how it could be too late... especially after Pentecost.
There is a similarity in the reference to the first-born (Zech 12:10) which is reminiscent of the first Passover - that in each of us there is a 'first-born' (the man of flesh) who has to die - as you said, a mourning over sin - but who is represented in Jesus and His death. Somehow though, God uses the separateness of Christ 'cut off for sins but not His own' to draw a response from men which otherwise they could not make. It is the [u]fact[/u] of Christ's death which compels us to believe.
Quote:
Or maybe even before that when the veil of the temple was rent?
Matthew 27
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, [u]and the rocks rent[/u];
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, [u]the earthquake[/u], and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
There is a clear picture of the meaning of Christ's death, in Zech 14:4 and 5. Azal means 'an easy way to escape' - which is interesting. Much more could be said.
Quote:
It has to do with [b]them[/b] seeing Him coming in the clouds of Heaven. Let me know what you think.
I have heard this interpretation all my life, and I agree that it has a place in the fulfilment of Revelation 1:7, when it will be too late for those who did not believe when they were alive, to be saved.
The apostle John said
'Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [i]also[/i] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.'
I believe John's observation of the soldier putting the spear into Jesus' side, (while he recognised it as a fulfilment of prophecy), at the time he saw it happening, had not yet had the scriptures expounded by Jesus after His resurrection, and even after that, didn't know quite what to expect from the promise to be 'endued with power from on high' (Luke 24:49) which Jesus made shortly before His ascension.
To be completely clear, I believe Zechariah's prophetic word - literally God speaking through him in the first person (as often happened to David, also) - 'and they shall look on Me whom they have pierced' - is fulfilled when John makes his observation at the cross. It is a reference to Gentiles - their part in His death and their future admission to His life by the Spirit.
It is a tiny part of a prophecy made to Israel (as Katy pointed out), but the moment the Holy Spirit falls in Cornelius' house, another dynamic cuts in - the circumcision of the heart.
Jesus was very clear in the priority He set [i]for Israel/i] - to seek first the kingdom of God. This is where 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord' (the other thread) is more relevant for our generation. I don't believe that is a reference to the Second Coming of Christ.
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| | 2007/12/17 22:00 | |
| | Re: I'm not joking ... who do you believe killed Jesus? | |
Hi David,
Quote:
dorcas, I believe my question about david\saul applies in that "Who killed Jesus" also consequently asks "who didnt kill Jesus".
In this, are you thinking of David as a type of Christ, in that Saul didn't kill David either?
Quote:
Now looking at davids opportunity [passed up] to kill saul,compared to the jews opportunity to stone Jesus could be more than coincidence.
Again, are you thinking of David as a type of Christ - in that He says
Matthew 26:53
Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Quote:
Ciaphas robe was torn,disqualifying him from priestly service. A terrible dilemma for him as it was passover and 3 sacrifices were manditory that day.
Possibly annas did the duty?
It is difficult to respect the priesthood at this stage. I have heard that Caiaphas wasn't really qualified by birth to be a high priest, but I don't know how to show that from scripture. His tearing of the robe indicates that his heart was not in the role - to say nothing of his involvement in the general conspiracy to kill Jesus.
Acts 4
1 And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, [u]and the Sadducees[/u], came upon them,
2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
This verse always makes me smile a bit:
Luke 3:2
Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
Caiaphas was Annas' son-in-law. Also, they were Sadducees.
Acts 5:17
Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,
Acts 23:8
For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
Matthew 28
10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
11 Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.
12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,
13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him [i]away[/i] while we slept.
14 And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you.
15 So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.
It's difficult to know if this fable was devised because they didn't believe in resurrection, or, because they thought it was more believable than resurrection. That the people had seen more than one resurrection and there was historical record of it from the Old Testament, makes it seem like they would always be fighting a losing battle on that one.
Quote:
I wonder, that since Jesus was priest before his crucifiction, did that prevent the jews from direct involvement?
One of the most bizzare aspects of Jesus' death is the amount of human involvement it took to get him to the cross but that this was all interpreted (apparently) as God's fault. It is truly amazing.
Isaiah 53:4
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: [b]yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God[/b], and afflicted.
Matthew 27
39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,
40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest [i]it[/i] in three days, save thyself. [b]If thou be the Son of God[/b], come down from the cross.
41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking [i]him[/i], with the scribes and elders, said,
42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. [b]If he be the King of Israel[/b], let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: [b]for he said, I am the Son of God[/b].
He was all those and more, as you say, also our High Priest to bring us to God. Apparently, He died at the time of the evening sacrifice. The veil tearing could not have been unnoticed right then. The way to God was immediately open.
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| | 2007/12/17 22:55 | |
| | Re: I'm not joking... who do you believe killed Jesus? | |
Further to my last three posts, I want to put a note here that when I awoke this morning, there was more understanding coming to my spirit from the Lord, which I will try to write when I have words. It seems to me today, that this thread is taking me on a far more personal journey than I anticipated, and it ties into my question to the Lord many months ago (I mean nearly two years actually) to explain 'What is the gospel?'
It is important to me to be able to couch my insight in scriptural language, (I don't mean KJV... ;-)... I mean, biblical terminology) because I am clear in my spirit that there is power in the word, when it is spoken from God's point of view, and [u]understanding[/u] removes confusion and doubt which might militate against authority.
One thing I've mentioned in a couple of threads, is how the religientsia needed to employ Judas (or someone) to lead them to Jesus. There are those verses in Isaiah 53, that He has no comeliness that we should desire Him, by which we understand Jesus was a very ordinary-looking man.
Then, we have His own testimony at the last, that He was in the temple daily, teaching - right under their noses - and yet they didn't know what He looked like. I wondered this morning, if that was because those who [i]should[/i] have been teaching were doing something else - like making money on the tables which sold sacrifices.
And then something else struck me - which I've been meditating upon - that He had said to John the Baptist, 'It behoves us to fulfill all righteousness' and I began to think through what does it mean 'I came to fulfill the law'?
And it dawned on me I've been making a fundamentally flawed assumption - which is, that 'fulfilling the law' is something about being honest with God over one's sin, and making all the repentances, apologies, sacrifices and attendances at days of Atonement, which should have characterised a Jewish life - but that for Jesus [i][b]none of the above applied[/i][/b]. He had never sinned.
The reason the priests didn't know what He looked like, and [i]therefore[/i] 'had nothing on Him', was that He never had to bring a sacrifice. They never saw His face close up while He had to make some kind of confession.
On top of all that, He walked around saying outrageous things about them, which were [u]all so true[/u] He didn't have to repent of a [i]single one[/i].
OUCH!
No wonder they were mad at Him and hated Him!
Obviously, some did engage with His teaching - [i]but not the plotters[/i].
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| | 2007/12/18 8:48 | |
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