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I pray that you will see that the power of God is not about signs and wonders, but about truth and righteousness.
AMEN brother we dont negate the first but pray we have a concept of these two facets of the power of God in context of the scriptures and divine revelation in our hearts. I was just reading a book last night: "Secret Power of the secret of success in christian life and word" by D.L. Moody. He powerfully exhorts we need the Holy Spirit in the churchs and we need His power. But then He goes on to show what really the Holy Spirit imparts to use, Love, Hope, Liberty, which if you don't have these and have all the signs and wonders you want it wont avail abit. I suggest you read this book brother it brings balance to alot of the teachings on the Holy Spirit that put parts of His office out of balance.
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Having heard the ministry of Ravenhill, Wimber, Bickle and Cain I believe they are all first and foremost lovers of Jesus and pure of heart in that sense.
You say those 4 are of equal spiritual stature in the same breath brother. Leonard Ravenhill out of that list clearly is apart and different. You just don't understand but if Leonard Ravenhill was alive today he would either die of extreme greif over the sitation of the church or rebuke much of the crazyiness that is happening in Charismatic circles and prophetic circles. Did not Ravenhill pray while he was alive: "Where is the prophetic? I just dont see it!" and much of the prophetic movement was starting and going when he prayed that prayer. Ravenhill just saw through most of the false and knew there was something better, more real, real revival.
"A man leaves his son millions of dollars. He puts a caution in the will, he says, You cant spend a dime of this until you are twenty years of age. This money is all tied up until you have enough sense to use it.
I believe Almighty God is saying that to the Church today. Weve toiled, rather weve trifled with gifts of the Spirit. We are far more interested in the gifts of the Spirit than with the Holy Spirit Himself. And God has treasures beyond our comprehension."
-Leonard Ravenhill
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|  2004/6/8 11:57 | Profile | jeremyhulsey
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| | Re: | | shill,
Sincerity and correctness are two very different things. I too believe these men are sincere, but sincerely wrong. Others in the past who have been sincere would include: Joseph Smith, Jim Jones, Jim Baker(author of "I Was Wrong"), and a host of others.
The test of true discipleship is not sincerity, but the truth in sincerity. As was posted earlier, when Ravenhill began to see the doctrine of these men whom we call false prophets, and rightly so, he distanced himself from them.
Sincere men of God will lead people to the Lord, but sincerely deceived men will lead people to another Jesus and a different gospel. In the late eighties these men of whom we have been speaking founded what came to be known as the Kansas City Prophets. Personal prophecy reigned supreme. The fruit of this ministry started what was kown as the "shepherding movement". Instead of leading the people to God, these men became god to their congregations. People couldn't marry, buy a house, or a car, or property, or do much of anything without first having the permission of their pastor. To Mike Bickle's credit he shut down the KC Prophets, but only after Bob Jones was caught in immorality(so much for the fruit of the Spirit). But to this day Bickle is still caught up in much of the "latter rain" heresy.
These men have caused the divisions, not us. They have separated themselves from the truth. And we should separate ourselves from them, for their sakes and ours.
In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey
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Jeremy Hulsey
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| | 2004/6/8 12:03 | Profile | disciplejosh
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| | Re: | | Just reading through these posts and as I read, the thought kept popping up of how God is concerned not just with our beginnings, but most importantly, our finishing well.
Most would agree that king Saul began well, but his finsh wasn't good.
I also thought of Paul's desperate pleading with the church in Galatia, "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you...Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"
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Josh
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| | 2004/7/25 3:04 | Profile | Jslimbaugh
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| | Re: Ravenhill and False Prophets | | Grace and Peace --
I was very, very fortunate to be discipled under the ministry of someone well acquainted with Brother Ravenhill.
I have distinct recollections of my friend/mentor recounting for me a conversation he'd carried on with Leonard concerning this very subject.
Basically, Leonard was never really in league with these people. Neither was he their enemy. He understood what was going on, he understood the concerns, and he was completely aware of the issues. He felt that God wanted him to spend the time there that he did. It is that simple. He fulfilled his call to be obedient, and that was that.
Sometimes, it is appropriate to decline an invitation. Sometimes, God needs a prophet to address a congregation caught in imbalance and error. The fact that Ravenhill simply obeyed a call to speak where God told him to doesn't really entail many of the assumptions I have seen in this thread.
He didn't ever endorse the Kansas City Prophets. He wasn't open to the accusation of getting involved in some weird things in his later years, as one person said (well, a 10 hr a day prayer habit might be weird to some). He simply fulfilled his obligation to speak the Word where God called him.
Thus, the suspect associations spoken of here were not the result of ignorance on his part, nor were they the result of his agreement with everything that was going on. It was based on what he felt God calling him to do. Remember the Word of the Lord to Jonah -- "Here is a city full of people who don't know their right hand from their left...should I not be concerned about them?" God still loves those caught in the sensational and unscriptural. He still desires that they be brought into all truth. So, why doesn't it make sense that He would finger a faithful man of God -- a prophet -- to spend some time among them?
Look at Ravenhill's life and ministry and give the guy a little bit of credit. Just because he chose short-term interaction in a circle that might not make sense to us on the surface does not mean there isn't a deeper explanation. Neither does it indicate a spiritual problem.
Blessings!!
Jason
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JSL
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| | 2004/7/26 17:45 | Profile | KingJimmy
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He didn't ever endorse the Kansas City Prophets.
Personally, one could have fooled me. I heard him greatly praise men such as Paul Cain and John Wimber. He also seemed willing to receive the words spoken by them concerning him. He said in one sermon that the reason the Berlin Wall fell, he believed as learned through the Spirit, was so that John Wimber could hold a conference in Europe, and people from all over Europe could attend. He said something along the lines of Paul Cain being one of the greatest men of this generation.
As much as I'd like to believe Ravenhill was just preaching to them because they needed to hear that message, I can't help but believe that he really thought very well of these "prophets" and seemed to truly fellowship with them.
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| | 2004/7/26 17:53 | Profile | Jslimbaugh
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Personally, one could have fooled me. I heard him greatly praise men such as Paul Cain and John Wimber.
I meant that he never went around endorsing them as a group, per se.
I had also written that Ravenhill was not their enemy, so he probably did have had occasion to praise certain people at various times. After all, Ravenhill was a Pentecostal.
I think this idea that we can't learn something from a teacher unless they fit our assumption of theological precision is just as much an imbalance and error as anything that comes out of movements like the Vineyard. Who among us is going to be so arrogant as to say they have it "all figured out."
I don't receive most of what comes out of the Vineyard these days. That doesn't mean I can't find something there to appreciate, and I think that was Ravenhill's view. I don't endorse Mike Bickle wholesale, but I can find something redemptive in his teaching. I could probably also have good fellowship with him, and I would probably accept an invitation to speak at his church.
We have to discern between what is an imbalance, a tangent, or a tendency vs. what is true heresy. Do we ignore such imbalances? No, of course not. But this whole thing of, "I don't like their approach, so I reject the whole thing" is JUST as much an imbalance!
I personally appreciate Wimber's emphasis on healing. While many here are too theologically sophisticated to even give his ideas a chance, let me put another spin on it. We might stick our spritual noses up at Wimber, but how many of us who do so have spent as many hours in hospitals as he did, weeping, hurting, and praying for the restoration of sick bodies?
That doesn't make him right on everything. It doesn't mean he wasn't really wrong about some things. What it means is that we have to stop dividing the body over opposing ideas of theological precision when it isn't over an essential. Personally, I would rather see Wimber's tears than hear a thousand theologically precise sermons.
Blessings,
Jason
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| | 2004/7/27 17:06 | Profile | sermonindex
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I was very, very fortunate to be discipled under the ministry of someone well acquainted with Brother Ravenhill. I have distinct recollections of my friend/mentor recounting for me a conversation he'd carried on with Leonard concerning this very subject.
Welcome brother Jason to SermonIndex, I am very glad you found this ministry site. That is awesome to hear that you were discipled by someone who knew these old men of God. Thank you for your post to clarify and clear up some things here, I have felt personally mentored by Leonard Ravenhill after listening to all of these recordings, and to hear that he was in league 100% with these men really confounded and vexed my spirit.
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Basically, Leonard was never really in league with these people. Neither was he their enemy. He understood what was going on, he understood the concerns, and he was completely aware of the issues. He felt that God wanted him to spend the time there that he did. It is that simple. He fulfilled his call to be obedient, and that was that.
Amen, [b]trust[/b] and [b]obey[/b] there is no other way! I am sure that Leonard Ravenhill brough a depth of experience and theology to the vineyard movement that was very necessary.
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I had also written that Ravenhill was not their enemy, so he probably did have had occasion to praise certain people at various times. After all, Ravenhill was a Pentecostal.
Yes at some points in his ministry he would preach in any type of church or denomination that would hear him. He say beyond denominational boundary lines but I would agree that he ended up preaching in more 'pentecostal' type churches.
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We have to discern between what is an imbalance, a tangent, or a tendency vs. what is true heresy. Do we ignore such imbalances? No, of course not. But this whole thing of, "I don't like their approach, so I reject the whole thing" is JUST as much an imbalance!
Brother Jason thank you for your words of wisdom and insight. I hope you can spend more time on the forums sharing your heart and insight into the gospel of Christ.
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| | 2004/7/27 17:37 | Profile | RobertW
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| | Re: Hindsight is 20/20 | | Quote:
As much as I'd like to believe Ravenhill was just preaching to them because they needed to hear that message, I can't help but believe that he really thought very well of these "prophets" and seemed to truly fellowship with them.
When I listen to Leonard Ravinhill in the latter years I hear a man desperate to see a move of God during his lifetime. A lot has happened since then. A lot has come to light. Personally I have distanced myself from a lot of things I used to praise in the early 90's. That is more because we both changed- both myself and the ministries I have distanced myself from. In my mind "they did run well"- but I am not so sure now- I am afraid to say too much on the matter. Nevertheless, Christ is preached, but I don't have the praise on my lips for them as I once did. I do think I have discarded some things I should not have. I pray I regain them.
Unfortunately Ravinhill did not have these last 10 or so years to bring correction to his views in light of all that has happened. He was very hurt by what happened to Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker. I would guess he once regarded them highly.
Personally I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt. I believe that had he lived to our times he would see wisely and clearly and with great discernment. He would have had a word for our times that may have made our ears tingle (as opposed to itching ears teachings). But God did not leave Him here to give us that word- He expects us to pursue Him (Christ) and press and get that word for our generation; with all the compassion and weeping and burden that Ravinhill had and all the more.
It's up to us now. What is the word for this hour?
God Bless,
-Robert
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| | 2004/7/27 17:41 | Profile | Endy9
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| | Re: | | Hi all,
My first post here. I am a long time fan of the "mere man of the Great God" Leonard Ravenhill and also was in the Vineyard movement when the false prophets tried to "take control" of it.
The complaints I have against the false prophets are:
1. They tried to completely undo the good Word brought to the Christian community through Wimber that we are a "priesthood of believers." They wanted to take the church back to the Catholic idea of an elite group of rulers and establish themselves as a new Vatican. Their most common saying when they visited the Atlanta Vineyard was "you shouldn't be doing any of this stuff. Only we are appointed apostles by God and only we may hear from God, lay hands on people for healing, etc." It was more of a secular fraternity power grab than any move of God.
2. Nothing is more hokie than saying "Bob Jones predicted the San Francisco earthquake 6 months before it happened, but God wouldn't allow us to tell you that he predicted it until after it happened." LOL |
| | 2004/8/21 10:52 | Profile | crsschk
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Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: | | Quote:
2. Nothing is more hokie than saying "Bob Jones predicted the San Francisco earthquake 6 months before it happened, but God wouldn't allow us to tell you that he predicted it until after it happened." LOL
:-P Have heard more than a few similar 'post-predictions'...
"The mere man of the Great God"... what a great line! You are off to a grand start Endy9, a most gracious welcome, hope to hear much more from your perspective.
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| | 2004/8/21 11:44 | Profile |
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