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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Encouraging caution…giving a warning

Hi sister,

It was John MaCarthur primarily amongst other voices that first began stiring up the uneasy sense that was being supressed due to having been taking in with so much of this many years ago.

And just as might be suspected there was the initial revolt upon first hearing what needed to be heard. We have gone through quite a bit of postings regarding these matters and I do not know if there is a silver bullet to answer every circumstance.

This unnamed speaker sounds all too familar though I can undestand your witholding his name. You might consider just presenting your concerns very simply, that they are just that, concerns-and if anything that they might be prayerful for discernment, to be good Bereans ...

Even for yourself, it may be the Lord might have you present something difficult to hear from say Carter Conlon or other messages here. I cannot say their reaction would be like my own ... but it might be enough to begin the thinking and considering of just what they are purchasing into their spirits. Just as well He might have you silent, prayerful ...

I thank God for those who had the courage to say what needed to be said and in a fashion that was serious, sober and yet still in the right spirit, far too much goes to such extremes as to only further embeed and give reason to cling more tightly to false teaching. When it is given in spite and malice and not from a brokeness it will never be anything but a hindrance, and a backlash. I do know a bit of this, after coming out from under it all, became what I am speaking of here. There are many ramifications from these things and that zeal can easily become misplaced and turned to ungodly anger and the wrong spirit. I wouldn't see that being an issue for you but say it to the benefit of others ...

My prayers dear sister.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/11/3 0:40Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

jlosinski,wow this made me think of the christians that are arrested and told PROVE IT!
If I am touched by God,he did it for me not you.
If someone at your church runs to the alter and gets saved it would be pretty evil of me to say "your not saved, prove it."
Or if God gives you a dream , who am I to say Prove it? you cant
moses did lots of unscriptural stuff and so did Jesus.
I pray for my dog....Unscriptural?
I suppose when you pray you tell the Holy Spirit what he is allowed to do???

 2007/11/3 0:44Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re: Encouraging caution…giving a warning

I pray you will get wisdom sister, and i will pray for your friends to, I have also many many dear people to me that are following these "strange" teachings and movements and "prophets".

Here is an article i posted in another thread [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=17724&forum=36&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0]"holy" laughter.[/url] Maybe you can find some bits and pieces from that thread, there are if nothing else many scripures given by many posters to pray about and seek wisdom.



The Lord says, "Come now, and let us reason together" (Isaiah 1:18. Here are some of my concerns about "holy" laughter and "the laughing revival."

(1) There is no biblical precedent for "holy" laughter.

Laughter is rarely mentioned in the Bible. Yet, when it is, the Bible seems to make more of a case for holy sorrow than for "holy" laughter. Scripture supports Solomon's contention that "sorrow is better than laughter." It does not support the present "laughing revival."

(2) Substituting the word joy for laughter is a non sequitur. It is inaccurate and misleading.

There is no scriptural authority for equating biblical references to joy with the involuntary manifestations of "holy" laughter. Just because there are insufficient Bible texts to make the case for "holy" laughter, it does not follow that you can simply redefine the word laughter by substituting the word joy.

(3) "Holy" laughter advocates rarely, if ever, discuss the need to "test the spirits."

The Bible warns us that not every supernatural manifestation is necessarily from God. 1 John 4:1 says, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world." Charles and Francis Hunter write in their book Holy Laughter, "Once you begin to walk in the supernatural you really have to be ready for anything and everything and never question the way God does it!" (p.65)

(4) "Holy" laughter advocates rarely, if ever, talk about the Spirit's express warning that in the latter times some people will be supernaturally seduced by deceptive evil spirits into following them and not the one true God.

1 Timothy 4: warns, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils."

(5) "Holy" laughter advocates rarely, if ever, talk about the Bible's warnings of false prophets who come in the name of Jesus but bring with them "another spirit." 2 Corinthians 11:4 says, "For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

(6) Many laughter advocates condescendingly discourage and even openly intimidate sincere Christians who question the "laughing revival."

According to the August Charisma article, Rodney Howard-Browne "disparages" people who "try to apply theological tests" to what he does. The Hunters' book Holy Laughter refers to skeptics as God's "frozen chosen." Mona Johnian writes, "skeptics, hesitaters and procrastinators do not get anointed." She warns "that any person or church that wavered could be eliminated."

(7) Rodney Howard-Browne's prayer to God just prior to his "anointing" ("either you come down here and touch me or I'll come up there and touch you") was unscriptural.

Howard-Browne's prayer was the essence "my will be done." It was not "thy will be done," as taught by Jesus in scripture. Why should we automatically assume that it was God who answered his prayer?

(8) "Holy" laughter advocates, in talking about "signs and wonders," rarely, if ever, mention the Bible's many warnings about deceptive signs and wonders.

In Matthew 16:4 Jesus warns, "a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign." In Matthew 24:24 JESUS says, "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." In 2 Thess. 2:9 the apostle Paul warns of the coming Antichrist, "even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."

(9) "Holy" laughter advocates seem to lay hands on almost everybody. The Bible specifically warns against this.

The eighth chapter of Acts describes how the disciples would not lay hands on Simon, a baptized believer, even though he desperately wanted the gift of the Holy Ghost, because his heart was "not right in the sight of God." 1 Timothy 5:22 warns us to "lay hands suddenly on no man." Yet "holy" laughter is passed on from person to person without so much as a second thought.

(10) "Holy laughter advocates blatantly disregard the biblical admonition that things be done decently and in order.

1 Corinthians 14:40 says, "Let all things be done decently and in order." Mona Johnian in her book Fresh Anointing says, "decently and in order! We must do things decently and in order. The Bible itself commands it, cry those who are frightened by that which is beyond traditional order" (p. 35). She advises her readers to "break with tradition" (p.45).

(11) The chaos and confusion that usually characterizes the "laughing revival: contradicts the Bible's description of the Person of God.

1 Corinthians 14:33 states, "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."

(12) Laughter advocates rarely if ever, discuss the well documented demonic deceptions that have manifested in past revivals.

To combat the deception that arose during the Welsh revival at the turn of this century authors Jessie Penn-Lewis and Evan Roberts wrote "War on the Saints: a disclosure of the deceptive strategies used by evil spirits against God's people." Both were very involved with the revival and were extremely concerned about the demonic manifestations that began to dominate their meetings. The forward to War on the Saints warns of "the grave dangers that beset the path of uninformed enthusiasm."

(13) A number of Christians have experienced the equivalent of "holy" laughter when they were in the New Age.

Indian Guru Bhagvhan Shree Rajneesh was affectionately known by his followers as the "divine drunkard" because he was reputed to have drunk so deeply from the well of the "Divine." As a former follower of Rajneesh I met hundreds of Sannyasins who had flown to India "to drink" from "Bhagwan's wine." When followers were physically touched by Rajneesh, or even if they were merely in his presence, they would often experience feelings of great exhilaration and joy. Disciples of Swami Baba Muktananda would often manifest uncontrollable laughter after receiving Shaktipat (physical contact) from the guru.

(14) The "laughing revival" could one day merge with what the New Age calls the coming day of "planetary Pentecost."

Barbara Marx Hubbard, (revered New Age leader and a 1984 Democratic nominee for the Vice Presidency of the United States), writes in her book, Teachings from the Inner Christ, how the human race will soon experience a day of "Planetary Pentecost." Hubbard, claiming to be in contact with "Christ," writes: "the Planetary Smile is another name for the Planetary Pentecost. When enough of us share a common thought of our oneness with God, Spirit will be poured out on all flesh paying attention" (p.79). In her book The Revelation, Hubbard says "Christ," in describing the planetary smile, said: "an uncontrollable joy will ripple through the thinking layer of the earth. The co-creative systems, which are lying psychologically dormant in humanity will be activated. From within, all sensitive persons will feel the joy of the force, flooding their systems with love and attraction...as this joy flashes through the nervous systems of the most sensitive peoples on earth, it will create a psycho magnetic field of empathy, which will align the next wave of people in synchrony, everywhere on Earth. This massive, sudden empathic alignment will cause a shift in the consciousness of Earth" (p. 234-235). Writing in Happy Birth Day Planet Earth, Hubbard repeats what she heard from "Christ." He said, "as the planetary smile ripples through the nervous systems of earth, and the instant of co-operation begins, and empathy floods the feelings of the whole body of Earth, separation is overcome, and I appear to all of you at once (p. 10-11).

The controversy over "holy" laughter is already splitting congregations and causing deep divisions in the body of Christ. And while many people have already taken sides, there are many more who are still trying to figure out just what is going on. Is this really a move of God, or is this the kind of deception the Bible warns about in Matthew 24, 1 Timothy 4:1, and in the second chapter of Thessalonians?

Unity is indeed the heartfelt desire of every sincere Christian (Psalm 133:1). But the Bible warns of massive deception that will come at the end and in Christ's name. Before the Church--in the name of unity--free falls into a worldwide "laughing revival," we had better be sure what it is we are uniting with.

In reflecting on "holy" laughter during these very troubled times, I recalled a music special I had seen on television a number of years ago. In the midst of an otherwise polite Hollywood type crowd, a male vocalist sang straight faced and sober into the teeth of their celebration. His words were electric and piercing, and they seemed to hang in the air. He sang, "you're laughing now, but you should be praying. You're in the midnight hour of your life."



Some Examples of Holy Laughter in Other Religions

1) Kundalini Energy is typically described as a powerful energy source lying dormant in the form of a coiled serpent at the base of the human spine. When freed it reputedly has the capacity to effect great physical healings. Christina and Stanislov Grof, New Age authors of the book The Stormy Search for the Self, describe how the awakening of Kundalini energy can be triggered by an advanced spiritual teacher or guru. And how the awakening can bring up memories of past psychological traumas. The Grofs state that "individuals involved in this process might find it difficult to control their behavior; during power rushes of Kundalini energy, they often emit various involuntary sounds, and their bodies move in strange and unexpected patterns. Among the most common manifestations . . . are unmotivated and unnatural laughter or crying, talking tongues . . . and imitating a variety of animal sounds and movements" (p. 78-79). The Grofs state that "careful study of the manifestations of Kundalini awakening confirm that this process, although sometimes very intense and shattering, is essentially healing."

Bwagwhan Shree Rajneesh, the former Oregon guru tells one of his followers in his book, Dance Your Way To God, "just be joyful . . . God is not serious . . . this world cannot fit with a theological god . . . so let this be your constant reminder - that you have to dance your way to God, to laugh your way to God" (p. 229). Often referred to as being "drunk on the divine," Rajneesh encouraged his followers to come and "drink" from him. Bahgvan's spiritual "wine" was often passed along with a single touch to the head. Many of his Sannyasins would fall to the floor in ecstasy after their encounters with Rajneesh.

Ramakrishna, an Indian saint, "daily went into 'samahdi,' a trance in which one involuntarily falls down unconscious and enters a rapturous state of super-conscious bliss (ananda), complete with beautiful visions and often involving astral projection. These states could last anywhere from a few minutes to several days and were often accompanied by uncontrollable laughter or weeping. He could send others into this state with a single touch to the head or chest" (unpublished article by John Rice on file at SCP).

Swami Baba Muktanada would transfer what was called "guru's grace" to his followers through Shaktipat (physical touch). This "grace" triggered the gradual awakening of the Kundalini which in turn produced various physical and emotional manifestations. Manifestations included uncontrollable laughing, roaring, barking, hissing, crying, shaking, etc. Some devotees became mute or unconscious. Many felt themselves being infused with feelings of great joy and peace and love. At other times the "fire" of Kundalini was so overwhelming they would find themselves involuntarily hyperventilating to cool themselves down (Per former Muktananda follower Joy Smith).

2) African Kung Bushmen of the Kalahari. The Grofs, in their book The Stormy Search For The Self , also cite an interesting parallel between the Kundalini awakening and the trance dance of the African Kung bushmen. During rituals the bushmen “enter a profound altered state of consciousness associated with the release of powerful emotions such as anger, anxiety, and fear. They are often unable to maintain an upright position and are overcome by violent shaking. Following these dramatic experiences, they typically enter a state of ecstatic rapture. According to the bushmen tradition, the dance releases from the base of the spine a cosmic healing force called ntum or ‘medicine.’ This is then passed by direct physical contact from one person to another.”

3) Qigong (ancient Chinese practice) Yan Xin, a Chinese Qigong master known to most of the over one billion people in China, gave a talk in San Francisco in 1991. Seventeen hundred devotees, most of them Chinese, showed up at the Masonic auditorium to listen to Yan. The San Francisco Chronicle on 5/16/91 reported that "minutes into his talk, several began experiencing what Yan Xin calls spontaneous movements." The Chronicle reporter said that "before long, the scene resembled a Pentecostal prayer meeting with many people waving their arms and making unintelligible sounds." Yan told his audience, "Those who are sensitive might start having some strong physical sensations - or start laughing or crying. Don't worry. This is quite normal." The article said that "since 1985, when a Qigong revival started sweeping China, 50 to 60 million Chinese have gone to see Yan."

4) Subud. According to The Encyclopedia of American Religions by J. Gordon Melton, the central element of the Subud faith is the practice of "latihan." Latihan is the way one surrenders to the power of God. It is a group process. The Encyclopedia says, "the latihan proper is a time of moving the consciousness beyond mind and desire and allowing the power to enter and do its work. . . . often accompanying the spontaneous period are various body movements and vocal manifestations - cries, moans, laughter and singing. These occur in the voluntary surrender of the self to the power. During this time, people report sensations of love and freedom and often, healings. All reach a higher level of consciousness"


Source: Warren Smith


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/11/3 6:21Profile
BrokenOne
Member



Joined: 2007/6/7
Posts: 429
Baton Rouge, Louisiana

 Re: Encouraging caution…giving a warning

I did not start this thread to confront the issue of laughing, which has been extensively dealt with in other threads, but rather to discuss how to lovingly approach others with the need to discern things that may be out of line with the Spirit of God.

I believe that the gifts of the Spirit are still for the church today, however I believe much that is put forth as of the Spirit of God is questionable, man-centered and not Christ honoring. I have read the accounts of Smith Wigglesworth who moved in a gift of healing, but the presence that this man carried with him caused people to fall to their knees weeping and repentant and aware of their need for God. I have been at the type of meetings I have described and what I have seen is a manipulation of people’s emotions. While these things are happening, the focus is not on the Lord, but everyone’s eyes eagerly watch the minister to see what is going to happen next. It is a chasing after manifestations that is a vain pursuit. And the temptation is to let yourself be swept into it so as not to appear unspiritual.

I have no desire to be contentious about this with anyone or to put God in a box and condemn anything that He does that is not according to my expectation, because He frequently surprises me. But I do take issue with how these manifestations take the focus off the Lord Jesus and put them onto man and our experience. This is so dangerous. When I am in a meeting and find myself questioning “where is the glory of Christ in this”, I find myself no longer interested in being a part of it.

It is so difficult to put these things into words in a way that conveys my heart on this matter. But having come out of deception myself and having found something of a very precious longing for the glory of Christ restored in my life, my heart just cries out for these women.

Thank you all brothers and sisters for your words of encouragement and for your prayers.

Danielle


_________________
Danielle

 2007/11/3 7:03Profile









 Re:

Quote:

BrokenOne wrote:
I did not start this thread to confront the issue of laughing, which has been extensively dealt with in other threads, but rather to discuss how to lovingly approach others with the need to discern things that may be out of line with the Spirit of God.




Funny you mentioned that because both of the pastors of this church my inlaws attend have the gift of discernment. My father inlaw is also a pastor here.

God gives the gift of discernment so that we do not end up with something false. The gift this pastor has allows him to see in the spiritual realm as God reveals things that are not of God. It puts the fear of God in you in a good way.

When the saints come to this meeting they are prepared. You dare not come with unfinished business. He is very loving and gentle but He will come up to you personally and speak to you. For example you may have a spirit of unforgiveness or maybe you are doing something you shouldn't be and we could all fill in the blanks on that one.

I would encourage you to pray for discernment. There is a gift of discernment but discernment is given to all of us.



 2007/11/3 8:01









 Re:

Danielle, I signed on here initially in 6/'05 - since then I've seen folks assume they know other member's hearts.

Your posts were very easy to understand and you've done well. Crsschk brought that out too.

Us who know you from all your other posts, completely understand what you've said, especially this part ---

"""While these things are happening, the focus is not on the Lord, but everyone’s eyes eagerly watch the minister to see what is going to happen next. It is a chasing after manifestations that is a vain pursuit. And the temptation is to let yourself be swept into it, so as not to appear unspiritual."""


I thank the Lord that HE has given you discernment and we will stay in prayer that your words and intentions are not twisted or used against you.


You should have left his name up there though. [I saw it] ;-)

Then we could really get our discernment going as a group and see who has any.

:-D

Thank you for all of your posts and your LOVE for the Lord and all of us. Amen!


Good post also from hmmhmm. Thanks for that - appreciated!

 2007/11/3 10:11
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

several things; can I ask for the Holy Spirit and get a devil? NO! Jesus said "or if he ask for a fish will he give him a serpent"?
I have been in the holy laughter meetings you havent.
I,like you, thought they were 'off' but once the Holy Spirit showed up ....wow was I wrong!

So basically you ,with the backing of Carter Conlon, ascribe the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil.
Carter conlon "discerned" the Holy Laughter from tapes,not meetings.

I was actually in times square church when his little revelation came forth.
I couldnt believe what I was hearing.

You attack most every modern move of God and yet say you long for revival?
You malign the tv preachers and yet it is you that heap "teachers" to yourselves because your appetite for gossip and slander has clouded your ability to discern.
Having itching ears.

Mr Hinn Joyce Myers Rodney Howard Brown and a slew of other Men of God that Love The Lord.....To you they are devils

but then you when you need the power of God ,what do you do?

When you need the power heaven is silent.

Archive Lester Somerall He was a Great man of God

"The reason I see God move everywhere I go is because I have never criticized another mans ministry"...Lester Somerall
Carter Conlon Zac poonen art Katz,,these are the main preachers you listen to.

I stay away from these preachers to me they are false.They trash other mens ministries.

And yet you heap this type of message to yourselves as if it is so noble and righteous.
"you are the ones that have 'itching ears'

R.A. Torrey said of the azusa steet revival"satanic puke from hell"
So much for discernment.

What is conspicuosly absent.? the stampede of si members to malign the baptists over the 'hate church' protesting funerals

We tend to protect our own.
Can i assume most on si agree with these haters?

Your silence is defening.

Not to worry Im sure Zac and Carter will dig up something.

 2007/11/3 10:25Profile









 Re:

I hope you're talking to me psalm1 and not directing this at Danielle. She's said nothing to you for this response.

Quote:
Carter Conlon Zac poonen art Katz,,these are the main preachers you listen to.

I stay away from these preachers to me they are false.They trash other mens ministries.



The Apostle Paul went after counterfeits by name and by false doctrines almost constantly.

You were part of Brownsville and liked it.

Where's the fruit of what happened down there?

We're to judge "movements and messages" by their "fruit".

"Try all things - test the spirits to see if they're from God"

NO, we will not throw out discernment and testing all things and researching these so-called "moves of GOD" - because we're commanded to.

Some of what came out of Azusa St WAS from Hell.

I'm pentecostal, but I'm not blind to phenomena.

We had a thread on here maybe a year and a half ago, about the "other things" that came out of Asuza street.
The AoG Bible college I attended had us to read the history of Asuza street for pentecostal teaching.

We're not to be blind. We're admonished to have discernment and again - Paul named names.

Quote:
We tend to protect our own.



Isn't that what you're doing with Brownsville - etc. ?

And mocking Zac and brother Conlon ?

And you tell us we're mocking?

You just contradicted the life out of your own point.


 2007/11/3 12:22









 Re:

I would just encourage everyone on this thread to just line up everything with scripture ONLY not one movement or experience verses another.

Haven't you ever been so filled with joy from the Lord you just wanted to laugh? Sure you could take this to all kinds of extremes but why go there???

I think this is why Jesus said you have to come to Him as a child. Don't overcomplicate things.

Do the scriptures mention God's people or God laughing in the bible? And why did they laugh? They laughed at thier enemies. Why??? Because they are just dust in the sight of God, little clay men :-).

If God ever gives you this revelation or small glimpse of reality you will laugh.God is not only angry with the wicked at times He does laugh at them .This is real laughter not something put on. Have you ever seen a mouse try to fight an elephant???

[color=0033FF] You shouldn't go to these meetings though because most of these people are going after an experience. That's idolatry!!! [/color]


 2007/11/3 12:54









 Re:

Thanks for clarifying in your blue line.

I don't believe anything comes up by accident.

It may be due time this subject came up again.

Many folks 'are' seeking 'something' in these days and as you mentioned "these meetings" and are so right in that - hmmhmm posted a good article and here are more...

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/holylaugh.htm

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/toronto_blessing_brownsville.html

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/5977/tonontobless.html


Thank you for re-posting & clarifying, glorytoglory.

 2007/11/3 13:07





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